Park Cameras - Selling open box items as new?

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Dave1 said:
The Sigma .pdf stated that prior to any work on a Sigma lens required proof of all duties and vat having pair before they would consider working on it.

The links are dead now, but this one of the AP reports made at the time.

If they don't want to work on items illegally brought into the UK it is quite within the rights to do so, and asking for proof is the way they would ascertain that status.
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Dave its not illegal to bring them in to the UK - its illegal to avoid declaring the purchase and avoid paying the duty. Sadly its another way of price fixing but like i said i would make sense on a lens within the warranty period, but not on a used lens outside warranty.
 
Overexposed said:
Are you telling me if you hadn't said up front that the lens was grey that they'd have asked for an invoice and proof the duty was paid? they could ask you for proof of purchase but the vat and duty as got nothing to do with them as its the owners problem. Seems very odd that they wouldn't do a paid repair regardless of the origin
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But as the UK importers they would have lost out on the profits of that lens as they had not imported it themselves. They declined to look at it under any circumstances which is the reason I've never bought grey since.
I know people do take risks with grey and that is their choice but for me its UK stock every time now.
Surely that is also the reason why Sigma, Nikon etc require product registration - so they know its UK stock and have their own record of when it was purchased and when the warranty runs out
 
So what happens to the person who works in Hong Kong for 6 months and whilst there buys a new camera/lens and then at the end of the 6 month work period comes back to the UK?

Are you saying that there camera/lens is worth less simply because they paid for it whilst working in Hong Kong?

Are you also saying that there warranty would be worthless once they returned to the UK?
 
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JulesP said:
But as the UK importers they would have lost out on the profits of that lens as they had not imported it themselves. They declined to look at it under any circumstances which is the reason I've never bought grey since.
I know people do take risks with grey and that is their choice but for me its UK stock every time now.
Surely that is also the reason why Sigma, Nikon etc require product registration - so they know its UK stock and have their own record of when it was purchased and when the warranty runs out
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But the Manufacturer has made the profit on the lens wherever it has been sold - its not the duty of the supplier to police the payment of duty or to control where the consumer buys from, they are merely supposed to act as the manufacturers agent in that geographic location - one would presume that repairs would be part of that service - Personally I think you were short changed and i would have kicked up a right stink and involved Tokina
 
Overexposed said:
But the Manufacturer has made the profit on the lens wherever it has been sold - its not the duty of the supplier to police the payment of duty or to control where the consumer buys from, they are merely supposed to act as the manufacturers agent in that geographic location - one would presume that repairs would be part of that service - Personally I think you were short changed and i would have kicked up a right stink and involved Tokina
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Maybe - maybe not. At the end of the day I no longer have the lens so I'm not too bothered.
 
I used Park once. My impression is they are more interested in making a sale than selling what a customer needs. Not impressed.
 
Overexposed said:
But the Manufacturer has made the profit on the lens wherever it has been sold
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The manufacturer has, indeed, made a profit on the lens sold to a Hong Kong retailer. But so what? Sigma UK have made nothing at all from such a sale. Why on Earth should they lose money because of the criminal activities of others? They have zero legal obligation to do so, and zero moral obligation.
 
KAS said:
I bought the Canon 7D mkii from Jessops and the box was open. When I asked why it was open the manager said all boxes are unsealed, there was no sign of a seal. I checked the clicks on getting home it was Zero. As it happened the camera went wrong and I took the camera back and the only 7D mkii they had was a display model but a new one was arriving the following day. He give me the display model to take home and play with and. The shop is in Canterbury about 30 mile away and when I got home the actuavations were 275 but the camera worked like a dream. I telephoned him that afternoon and he offered to knock £30 of the demo model but I declined and said I wanted new because if it went wrong I would kick myself.
The following day I collected my new camera and it was in another open box. I took it outside and took 6 photographs and it was perfect. When I arrived home I checked its clicks and it was 6.
I can understand why they come in a open, so customers can inspect them before they are taken away. I have bought from awex and Park and their boxes are always sealed because item is posted to you. My new camera is spot on and Jessops were brilliant, I thought I was losing the camera to the repair centre for a month.
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New Jessops or Old Jessops

I bought my 40D and 50D from Jessops. 50D came in an opened box, I wasn't happy and asked them to swap for one that still had the seal. (All my cannon cameras have come with a clear circular seal). They did, I got it home, it had a Cheap CF card in with around 200 shots of the store, staff and customers. They'd blatantly just resealed the box with a sticker on a used, demo'd item. When I complained they offered to knock some money off, but I wanted a new item. I got my money returned and went to a local independent.

Or the time I drove an hour to Bath to collect a manfrotto pistol head I wanted, having first called - "yes sir, brand new sealed in box"

As I walk in I notice on the display the item I want is missing, all others are displayed. The item is sealed, but I opened it to check it having been caught out before. Sure enough they'd taken the one from display and resealed it in it's box. Action felt like it had a whole beach in it and the handle was seriously damaged, scratched so much part of the logo was missing. Again they offered a small amount off.

Waste of my time, money and why I never used Jessops again.

There should be no reason why any box is open. If a customer wants to play with an item that's what demo models are for. The customer gets to open the box when it's paid for or they've got the money on the counter.
 
Out of interest does anyone know Canon's stance on repairing greys?

I know the warranty isn't valid it the UK (bought an M3 direct from Japan, I paid all duties and have the paperwork) but will they repair out of warranty for a fee?
 
hollis_f said:
The manufacturer has, indeed, made a profit on the lens sold to a Hong Kong retailer. But so what? Sigma UK have made nothing at all from such a sale. Why on Earth should they lose money because of the criminal activities of others? They have zero legal obligation to do so, and zero moral obligation.
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Is Sigma UK a division of Sigma or are they an independent company trading as Sigma UK? If they are a division of Sigma then Sigma have already made a profit, are you saying the Sigma UK has to make a profit on a lens already sold by Sigma? If they are an independent company then they are agents and should act as such. What it basically boils down to is if companies want to export their goods they should offer worldwide warranties - it would also make the market a level playing field for consumers. Other than that its a personal matter of declaring an import and paying the duty. its certainly no business of the company whether or not you've paid the vat and duty. If you want to get an imported car serviced or repaired do you have to show the garage the invoice and receipt for duty? of course not. If you did but realise it we're being had for mugs.
 
Overexposed said:
Dave its not illegal to bring them in to the UK - its illegal to avoid declaring the purchase and avoid paying the duty.
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I wasn't saying that simply bringing them into the UK was illegal, I was referring to those who bring them in an illegal manner by smuggling them in and failing to pay the tax and duty. If a person wants to do that they shouldn't be expecting assistance from the UK distributor when things go wrong ;).

Dave1 said:
If they don't want to work on items illegally brought into the UK it is quite within the rights to do so
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Dave1 said:
I wasn't saying that simply bringing them into the UK was illegal, I was referring to those who bring them in an illegal manner by smuggling them in and failing to pay the tax and duty. If a person wants to do that they shouldn't be expecting assistance from the UK distributor when things go wrong ;).
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I agree totally but my point is its actually got nothing to do with the agent whether or not you've paid the duty, its a matter for you and HMRC !
 
Overexposed said:
I agree totally but my point is its actually got nothing to do with the agent whether or not you've paid the duty, its a matter for you and HMRC !
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but it is - because as i said earlier by doing so you've undercut them, so why should they help you

its a bit like setting up a shebeen opposite you local, stealing their customers with prices you can only offer because you are operating illegaly.. and then being suprised when the landlord tells you to p*** off when you ask him to check out your faulty beer pump
 
but Nikon will not touch imitation cameras at their repair centers,again, a response to issues with grey imports and repairs inside/outside warranty
 
Byker28i said:
but Nikon will not touch imitation cameras at their repair centers,again, a response to issues with grey imports and repairs inside/outside warranty
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Of course they wont, but the buyer should really make sure they get what they pay for and buy from a reputable retailer wether they are based in the UK or elsewhere. That way they will get a genuine product and a decent warranty with UK based repair agents.

AFAIK most main manufacturers will repair gear from other regions, the end user just pays for the repair like any repair outside warranty, then depending on who they bought from they just send the repair bill to the retailer. Also, manufacturers will repair worldwide cameras without charge if theres a recall.
 
big soft moose said:
but it is - because as i said earlier by doing so you've undercut them, so why should they help you

its a bit like setting up a shebeen opposite you local, stealing their customers with prices you can only offer because you are operating illegaly.. and then being suprised when the landlord tells you to p*** off when you ask him to check out your faulty beer pump
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If they are doing a repair that you are paying for,it shouldn't matter a jot where the camera was originally purchased from.
 
Ok, one other scenario - say you buy a Camera/lens in the UK and go to work or live in another country - the camera/lens breaks or needs repairing, you haven't got your invoice and they refuse to repair it? How do you feel then?
 
Overexposed said:
Ok, one other scenario - say you buy a Camera/lens in the UK and go to work or live in another country - the camera/lens breaks or needs repairing, you haven't got your invoice and they refuse to repair it? How do you feel then?
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Well, assuming it's a fault with the camera and not general wear 'n' tear or a result of an idiot owner, I would send it back to the company I actually bought it from and rely on England's rather excellent consumer protection laws. Of course, I may have a problem if I've lost my receipt, my credit card records and any email I got from that company.

But then I'd be in exactly the same situation as I would with any other bloody thing I'd ever bought. There aren't that many stores that will accept returns without proof of purchase.
 
Overexposed said:
If they are doing a repair that you are paying for,it shouldn't matter a jot where the camera was originally purchased from.
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but you could say that about the scenario i possited - okay mtr landlord i know i've nicked all your customers by trading illegally but how about looking at my beer pump,

f*** off

hey i'm offering to pay you to fix it

i said f*** off
 
big soft moose said:
but you could say that about the scenario i possited - okay mtr landlord i know i've nicked all your customers by trading illegally but how about looking at my beer pump,

f*** off

hey i'm offering to pay you to fix it

i said f*** off
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Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face!
 
no its called not helping someone who's stabbing you in the back

Helping someone whos busy undercutting your prices just because you get a bit of cash flow from it would be penny wise pound foolish. End of the day grey import (in particular smuggled or misdeclared) isnt in the manufacturer or uk dealers interests, so why shouldnt they make grey import look as unattractive as possible
 
Byker28i said:
New Jessops or Old Jessops

I bought my 40D and 50D from Jessops. 50D came in an opened box, I wasn't happy and asked them to swap for one that still had the seal. (All my cannon cameras have come with a clear circular seal). They did, I got it home, it had a Cheap CF card in with around 200 shots of the store, staff and customers. They'd blatantly just resealed the box with a sticker on a used, demo'd item. When I complained they offered to knock some money off, but I wanted a new item. I got my money returned and went to a local independent.

Or the time I drove an hour to Bath to collect a manfrotto pistol head I wanted, having first called - "yes sir, brand new sealed in box"

As I walk in I notice on the display the item I want is missing, all others are displayed. The item is sealed, but I opened it to check it having been caught out before. Sure enough they'd taken the one from display and resealed it in it's box. Action felt like it had a whole beach in it and the handle was seriously damaged, scratched so much part of the logo was missing. Again they offered a small amount off.

Waste of my time, money and why I never used Jessops again.

There should be no reason why any box is open. If a customer wants to play with an item that's what demo models are for. The customer gets to open the box when it's paid for or they've got the money on the counter.
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I take the point and have to confess that I haven't shopped in Jessop because of there bad service for over 15 years. I could'nt trust Wex's delivery and telephoned Jessops and to be fair to them they were great with me. Would I use them as my main supplier, no, but on this occassion they were good. If Parcel Post sort themselves out I would remain using Wex.
 
big soft moose said:
no its called not helping someone who's stabbing you in the back

Helping someone whos busy undercutting your prices just because you get a bit of cash flow from it would be penny wise pound foolish. End of the day grey import (in particular smuggled or misdeclared) isnt in the manufacturer or uk dealers interests, so why shouldnt they make grey import look as unattractive as possible
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Don't ever go into business!
 
big soft moose said:
Ive been in business - prinmcipal one is that you don't help your competitors take all your clients.
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Pete you are missing the point here - no matter where in the world it's sold the manufacturer makes his money - how can the manufacturer be the agents competitor? the agent asking for proof of duty paid and refusing repair is a actually demeaning the value of the brand . like I said at the start if there were worldwide warranties there wouldn't be a problem it would make the market more competitive and the only issue would be paying duty at point of entry.
 
Overexposed said:
Pete you are missing the point here - no matter where in the world it's sold the manufacturer makes his money - how can the manufacturer be the agents competitor? the agent asking for proof of duty paid and refusing repair is a actually demeaning the value of the brand . like I said at the start if there were worldwide warranties there wouldn't be a problem it would make the market more competitive and the only issue would be paying duty at point of entry.
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Except companies like Canon, Nikon etc don't run on worldwide profit, each regional entity is responsible for its own. So Canikon Asia selling something doesn't do anything for Canikon Europe's bottom line, but repairing the Canikon Asia item will cost Canikon Europe from their service budget.
 
Dave1 said:
Except companies like Canon, Nikon etc don't run on worldwide profit, each regional entity is responsible for its own. So Canikon Asia selling something doesn't do anything for Canikon Europe's bottom line, but repairing the Canikon Asia item will cost Canikon Europe from their service budget.
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Quite

plus most repairs are done through a dealer, who is an independent business and doesnt benefit by helping you with your purchase of dodgy grey market shonk

If I'm running say BSM's reputable fridge company (purveyors of fridges of class and distinction to the gentry since 1807) and i regularly sell fridges for £800
, but you chose to buy a fridge from Dodgy Daves Dive (motto 'our fridges are cheap because we don't pay our taxes') for £4.99 and a packet of crisps, and then it breaks down and you come to me seeking to have it repaired, why would it be in my interests to help you - I'm going to say , you chose to buy from dodgy dave, you get him to fix your fridge

When he laughs and says "no money back, no garuantee... god bless hooky street etc" that is also not my problem, and its still not in my interests to fix your fridge - its in my interests to sell you a new one
 
big soft moose said:
Quite

plus most repairs are done through a dealer, who is an independent business and doesnt benefit by helping you with your purchase of dodgy grey market shonk

If I'm running say BSM's reputable fridge company (purveyors of fridges of class and distinction to the gentry since 1807) and i regularly sell fridges for £800
, but you chose to buy a fridge from Dodgy Daves Dive (motto 'our fridges are cheap because we don't pay our taxes') for £4.99 and a packet of crisps, and then it breaks down and you come to me seeking to have it repaired, why would it be in my interests to help you - I'm going to say , you chose to buy from dodgy dave, you get him to fix your fridge

When he laughs and says "no money back, no garuantee... god bless hooky street etc" that is also not my problem, and its still not in my interests to fix your fridge - its in my interests to sell you a new one
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Are all UK dealers affiliated with each other then rather than independent businesses? Why would UK dealer A repair an item sold by UK dealer B? By that logic why wouldn't they equally tell the customer where to go...??

"Go and get it repaired by dealer B they are always undercutting our prices" would surely be their response? Ahhh..... But it isn't for some reason.
 
Rich_Ellis said:
Are all UK dealers affiliated with each other then rather than independent businesses? Why would UK dealer A repair an item sold by UK dealer B? By that logic why wouldn't they equally tell the customer where to go...??

"Go and get it repaired by dealer B they are always undercutting our prices" would surely be their response? Ahhh..... But it isn't for some reason.
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because its part of their contract with for example canon uk - this doesnt extend to items bought from Canon asia and smuggled into the UK by misdeclaring them as toy parts

Also dealer a and Dealer B are in honest competition - which is why prices don't differ much between WE and Jessops or Park and Clifton etc... therefore why should they'd have less greivance with each other than with a grey importer undercutting their prices by dishonest means

You think about pubs - most brewery pubs will happliy recomend others in the same chain - althogh they are all in competition with each other, because its part of their contract with the brewery... they won't however recomend dodgy daves Shebeen which is undercutting their prices by smuggling its booze in from france
 
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big soft moose said:
Quite

plus most repairs are done through a dealer, who is an independent business and doesnt benefit by helping you with your purchase of dodgy grey market shonk

If I'm running say BSM's reputable fridge company (purveyors of fridges of class and distinction to the gentry since 1807) and i regularly sell fridges for £800
, but you chose to buy a fridge from Dodgy Daves Dive (motto 'our fridges are cheap because we don't pay our taxes') for £4.99 and a packet of crisps, and then it breaks down and you come to me seeking to have it repaired, why would it be in my interests to help you - I'm going to say , you chose to buy from dodgy dave, you get him to fix your fridge

When he laughs and says "no money back, no garuantee... god bless hooky street etc" that is also not my problem, and its still not in my interests to fix your fridge - its in my interests to sell you a new one
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FFS 'The Dodgy Grey Market Shonk ' you quote is exactly the same piece of kit made on the same production line as the one you buy in the UK - it becomes grey because its sold in a different geographic area
 
big soft moose said:
because its part of their contract with for example canon uk - this doesnt extend to items bought from Canon asia and smuggled into the UK by misdeclaring them as toy parts
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But it's the same business argument! Either they make money from repairs or they don't. They must do or they wouldn't do it.
 
Rich_Ellis said:
But it's the same business argument! Either they make money from repairs or they don't. They must do or they wouldn't do it.
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They are acting as an agent for Canonikon UK - chances are the dealer won't actually do the repair they'll sent it to Canon Elstree or wherever - so the reasons they do it are

a) its part of their contract with Canikon UK
b) its good customer sevice for someone who buys from UK dealers

So the reasons they won't handle smuggled items are

a)Canikon UK have no interest in them (and don't really want them in the country)
b) why encourage anyone to buy from smugglers instead of Uk dealers
 
big soft moose said:
They are acting as an agent for Canonikon UK - chances are the dealer won't actually do the repair they'll sent it to Canon Elstree or wherever - so the reasons they do it are

a) its part of their contract with Canikon UK
b) its good customer sevice for someone who buys from UK dealers

So the reasons they won't handle smuggled items are

a)Canikon UK have no interest in them (and don't really want them in the country)
b) why encourage anyone to buy from smugglers instead of Uk dealers
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Seriously? They are happy to support anyone that buys from uk dealers? Come on, they don't give a stuff about anyone that doesn't buy from them. UK dealer or grey, they view them as the same if it wasn't sold by themselves!!!
 
Overexposed said:
FFS 'The Dodgy Grey Market Shonk ' you quote is exactly the same piece of kit made on the same production line as the one you buy in the UK - it becomes grey because its sold in a different geographic area
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Thats not what Sigma say

While legitimate goods have been responsibly handled by importers, wholesalers and retailers, grey imports habve often changed hands many times, Often they are removed from their protective wrapping and stored in damp humid conditions encouraging the growth of mould in optics, and seriously effecting the lifespan and efficiency of the microelectronics in todays high tech products
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http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/image/data/pdf/Going Grey - Leaflet - Low Res.pdf

ergo another reason why they won't repair smuggled goods is that often the reason they are borked is because they were smuggled
 
big soft moose said:
They are acting as an agent for Canonikon UK - chances are the dealer won't actually do the repair they'll sent it to Canon Elstree or wherever - so the reasons they do it are

a) its part of their contract with Canikon UK
b) its good customer sevice for someone who buys from UK dealers

So the reasons they won't handle smuggled items are

a)Canikon UK have no interest in them (and don't really want them in the country)
b) why encourage anyone to buy from smugglers instead of Uk dealers
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Im not in favour or evasion of duty but my issue here is that these Grey items are exactly the same item as a UK item made on the same line. They are identifiable by serial number so why should an agent wish to see proof of duty or an invoice particularly on a camera outside its warranty period. No agent has the right to ask you for proof of duty paid as it has nothing to do with them.
 
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