Paps - do they give photography a bad name?

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Watching the news on BBC, lots of coverage of Capello giving the Paps outside stick for shooting "through the windows of the changing room", then moved on to the players complaining that they were getting too close on a Safari trip yesterday, Joe Cole saying he wished a few of them had been eaten by lions! :D

Personally, I dislike this type of photojournalism. It is probably what the general public associate most with SLRs and gets the most coverage. I recall the day after Diana, PR machine of Wales died I was looking in the window of a local Camera shop, and my wife commented that it was inappropriate given the circumstances. Naturally I told her to stop being so silly, but I think that to this day there is still a bit of a hang up on photography in public because of it.

Thoughts? :geek:
 
If you don't like them, stop buying the crappy magazines!
 
I would happily ban those rags and impose prison sentences for buying them :D
 
The people in the pictures were mostly (well probably all) accredited media- sports and news photographers from the top newspapers and agencies across the world. I know The Times covered England at the safari. It's their job to cover stories which are of interest to the general public, like this event was. The safari shots were quite nice - a chance to see the players with their guard down, having fun, and not worrying about everything else.

The paps that chased Diana on a moped are a completely different kettle of fish.
 
They do, but I bet 1/2 the people moaning about the paps after Diana were the ones buying Hello or whatever the week before.

I've always people should be entitled to a certain level of privacy, how you'd put that into law I have no idea - I guess restraining orders will be the way forwards for celebs.
 
Not my cup of tea really.

I know there are 2 sides to it. On one hand if the celebs want the publicity to help sell their latest book/film etc then can they complain when they have their picture taken while out shopping?
On the other hand, the 'publicity' could be seen as part of the job and when I finish work at the end of the day then I have stopped working and don't expect anyone to pester me for work in my free time.

davidbridges said:
If you don't like them, stop buying the crappy magazines!
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I don't get any these crappy things and thankfully neither does my wife :)
 
I am not into celebrity, don't buy mags (except a couple of Photo titles) and rarely read papers, I have walked past "celebrities" and not had a clue who they were so it would be no loss to me if the like of Hello etc didn't exist. ( I don't do football either) However I think if these people want publicity they should put up with the intrusion into their lives and the inconvenience it brings to them when they prefer to keep stuff under wraps.
 
Sorry but are we talking about football players here - those people who get paid millions to play a game they would be doing on a Sunday afternoon for nothing anyway if they weren't in a pro team? How sad eh? Being paid so much and having to put up with photographers snapping them while they have fun.

Paps I dont usually like at all but the problem is some genuine press photographers (no I am NOT one of those) get tarred with the same brush.
 
Well said Andy.

Everyone should remember it's the ENGLAND football team at the World Cup - the most high profile sporting event in the world. You can't expect the press not to cover it can you?
 
I'm sure there is plenty of opportunity for photos without the need to hang around outside the hotel with super tele lenses? :shrug:
 
The gist of the argument seemed to be that they got p****** off with them at the safari?

Every country does the same thing, some probably more than us!
 
SuperAP said:
Watching the news on BBC, lots of coverage of Capello giving the Paps outside stick for shooting "through the windows of the changing room", then moved on to the players complaining that they were getting too close on a Safari trip yesterday, Joe Cole saying he wished a few of them had been eaten by lions! :D

Personally, I dislike this type of photojournalism. It is probably what the general public associate most with SLRs and gets the most coverage. I recall the day after Diana, PR machine of Wales died I was looking in the window of a local Camera shop, and my wife commented that it was inappropriate given the circumstances. Naturally I told her to stop being so silly, but I think that to this day there is still a bit of a hang up on photography in public because of it.

Thoughts? :geek:
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Sorry, but since I (and I'm sure Kipax, Purpleclouds, Tobers, Rovers_Andy, Boggy and others) know a large number of the guys who were singled out by Fabio Capello. I know that they are the top sports togs in the world and are there to cover the stories. We (by which I mean all of us i've mentioned above) would all have done the same.

If I/we hadn't covered the safari, then the desks would have been roasting us...I'd probably be fired for it. The togs are there to do a job, and they have done just that.

There's so much hysteria surrounding every move made by the players (remember Rooney's metatarsal in 2006 - and Beckham's in 2002), that it has to be done. If there was so much interest in the "medical room" as Fabio would believe, then where are the pictures?

There aren't any. In fact, having spoken to a couple of guys out there who were at the training session, they were all waiting for Fabio Capello to appear and snap him...not whatever room was behind him.

Sorry SuperAP...but that's what we're paid to do...what we're told! It wasn't the hotel, it was an open, accredited training session. If the FA objected, then they can close the training session or ask the togs to move. It was not the hotel.

If you're going to stoke a pointless fire, then please get your facts straight first.
 
jamesb84 said:
Sorry, but since I (and I'm sure Kipax, Purpleclouds, Tobers, Rovers_Andy, Boggy and others) know a large number of the guys who were singled out by Fabio Capello. I know that they are the top sports togs in the world and are there to cover the stories. We (by which I mean all of us i've mentioned above) would all have done the same.

If I/we hadn't covered the safari, then the desks would have been roasting us...I'd probably be fired for it. The togs are there to do a job, and they have done just that.

There's so much hysteria surrounding every move made by the players (remember Rooney's metatarsal in 2006 - and Beckham's in 2002), that it has to be done. If there was so much interest in the "medical room" as Fabio would believe, then where are the pictures?

There aren't any. In fact, having spoken to a couple of guys out there who were at the training session, they were all waiting for Fabio Capello to appear and snap him...not whatever room was behind him.

Sorry SuperAP...but that's what we're paid to do...what we're told! It wasn't the hotel, it was an open, accredited training session. If the FA objected, then they can close the training session or ask the togs to move. It was not the hotel.

If you're going to stoke a pointless fire, then please get your facts straight first.
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Agree 100%.

The reason football and celebrities survive is due to the media.
 
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jamesb84 said:
Sorry, but since I (and I'm sure Kipax, Purpleclouds, Tobers, Rovers_Andy, Boggy and others) know a large number of the guys who were singled out by Fabio Capello. I know that they are the top sports togs in the world and are there to cover the stories. We (by which I mean all of us i've mentioned above) would all have done the same.

If I/we hadn't covered the safari, then the desks would have been roasting us...I'd probably be fired for it. The togs are there to do a job, and they have done just that.

There's so much hysteria surrounding every move made by the players (remember Rooney's metatarsal in 2006 - and Beckham's in 2002), that it has to be done. If there was so much interest in the "medical room" as Fabio would believe, then where are the pictures?

There aren't any. In fact, having spoken to a couple of guys out there who were at the training session, they were all waiting for Fabio Capello to appear and snap him...not whatever room was behind him.

Sorry SuperAP...but that's what we're paid to do...what we're told! It wasn't the hotel, it was an open, accredited training session. If the FA objected, then they can close the training session or ask the togs to move. It was not the hotel.

If you're going to stoke a pointless fire, then please get your facts straight first.
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Don't go dragging me into this.... :p;)

But seeing as you have... I agree totally :)
 
As long as the country has a fascination with this shower of overpaid and over rated nobs, I suppose you all have a job to do.
 
fracster said:
As long as the country has a fascination with this shower of overpaid and over rated nobs, I suppose you all have a job to do.
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It's not just about the stars, there is a lot of work going on over there to record the effect of the World Cup on South Africa as a whole.. it's development, it's people... have a browse through Getty Images stuff and you'll see it's not all about Gary Cole or Wayne Terry falling out of nightclubs with hookers attached to their arms...
 
There's a market for it and they're very good at what they do. I've always wanted to have a go but I think my morals would hinder me, but then as purpleclouds has pointed out, it's not all about getting celebs at their worst moment.
 
grey.squirrel said:
There's a market for it and they're very good at what they do. I've always wanted to have a go but I think my morals would hinder me, but then as purpleclouds has pointed out, it's not all about getting celebs at their worst moment.
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A good example of this, was the Great Manchester Run the other week. There must have been about 20 photographers at the start line. All but 3 of us, were there to photograph the 'celebrities'.. I didn't snap a single frame of a celeb (ok that's a small lie.. I did take one of Bez from the Happy Mondays as I almost bumped into him.. but he is a Manchester icon, and it was for my personal stash :p). There were some of the best long distance runners the world has ever seen warming up not 20 yards away, but instead, some bloke off Corrie was being harassed by 17 photographers because he had raised £300 for charity.

That's the best I can define the difference. :shrug:
 
I recognised a few of the photogrpahers... the girl at the front who looked a bit worried when he came over can be seen at any shrewsbury game home or away.. rovers Andy she was with your mate at the Bury game we covered.. recognised a few others and most of the sports togs on TP would give there right arm to be there doing exactly the same..

as for the real paps who hang around night clubs ect.. they are doing there job..trying to earn a living.. who are we to slag them off?
 
KIPAX said:
I recognised a few of the photogrpahers... the girl at the front who looked a bit worried when he came over can be seen at any shrewsbury game home or away.. rovers Andy she was with your mate at the Bury game we covered.. recognised a few others and most of the sports togs on TP would give there right arm to be there doing exactly the same..

as for the real paps who hang around night clubs ect.. they are doing there job..trying to earn a living.. who are we to slag them off?
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Aye she shoots for AMA :p the guy i was talking to is Matt Ashton he runs AMA.

The tog he vented at shoots for Action Images apparantly.

And yep i would LOVE to have the chance to shoot the World Cup
 
purpleclouds said:
A good example of this, was the Great Manchester Run the other week. There must have been about 20 photographers at the start line. All but 3 of us, were there to photograph the 'celebrities'.. I didn't snap a single frame of a celeb (ok that's a small lie.. I did take one of Bez from the Happy Mondays as I almost bumped into him.. but he is a Manchester icon, and it was for my personal stash :p). There were some of the best long distance runners the world has ever seen warming up not 20 yards away, but instead, some bloke off Corrie was being harassed by 17 photographers because he had raised £300 for charity.

That's the best I can define the difference. :shrug:
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Have to say i agree with you Phil, im not arsed about celebs. We get paid to cover sports not some C list prat who has no talent (I'm not talking about Bez :p)
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Have to say i agree with you Phil, im not arsed about celebs. We get paid to cover sports not some C list prat who has no talent (I'm not talking about Bez :p)
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having met some premiership players i would say theres not a lot of difference between them and c list prat celebs... i think they should all keep shtum and smile for the camera.. if they dont like it theres plenty of jobs down the council they can apply for..
 
KIPAX said:
having met some premiership players i would say theres not a lot of difference between them and c list prat celebs... i think they should all keep shtum and smile for the camera.. if they dont like it theres plenty of jobs down the council they can apply for..
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Well yeah there are some idiots, but you get that in any walk of life. Bumped into David Dunn before at the Blackburn training ground, he sounded like a Beegee on helium :lol:
 
I would hide in a celebs bin if I thought it would get me a money shot

EDIT: Mind you it would have to be a big bin given my size :lol:
 
Sorry Andy but I get paid to cover sporting events in a way that makes money for my employer and if that means I take photos of celebrities that happen to be there, be they A or Z-list then I'm happy to do that. Our industry has to take a broadbrush view of any event covered and look for any story that the papers will be interested in or that our archive will benefit from. Seeing as a sporting picture holds less value than an entertainment/personality image to the editorial world (sad I know) we have to adapt and bend our principles to survive.

I'm off to SA next week and I'll be shooting anything I think has value :)

I'll be sure to tell Cath she is now a celebrity too!
 
TheBionicDan said:
Sorry Andy but I get paid to cover sporting events in a way that makes money for my employer and if that means I take photos of celebrities that happen to be there, be they A or Z-list then I'm happy to do that. Our industry has to take a broadbrush view of any event covered and look for any story that the papers will be interested in or that our archive will benefit from. Seeing as a sporting picture holds less value than an entertainment/personality image to the editorial world (sad I know) we have to adapt and bend our principles to survive.

I'm off to SA next week and I'll be shooting anything I think has value :)

I'll be sure to tell Cath she is now a celebrity too!
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Thats fair enough Dan, this is where you experience shows alongside your work for a bigger agency.

I guess the other problem is im coming into the Photography business in an unorthodox way so don't have the same grounding as many


Have a good one out there you jammy b****r :D
 
TheBionicDan said:
Sorry Andy but I get paid to cover sporting events in a way that makes money for my employer and if that means I take photos of celebrities that happen to be there, !
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I would think thats the same for any sports tog.. I ahve been to games and either spotted a celeb or been tipped... it would be pointless being there with a camera if you dont take a pic of said celeb :)

had gareth gates minders tell me not to take pics of him at halifax FC (pre afc halifax) and i said fair enough i wont.... the fact i had about 50 pics of him before they said owt meant i could keep them and me happy hehe :)

got lots of small time celebs.. nobody real famous.....
 
KIPAX said:
had gareth gates minders tell me not to take pics of him at halifax FC (pre afc halifax) and i said fair enough i wont.... the fact i had about 50 pics of him before they said owt meant i could keep them and me happy hehe :)
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Gareth Gates has minders?! I know he's in Les Mis but I didn't think he was quite that hot property, obviously I need to read more Heat and OK lol.


Loving this thread. One question for any of the Pros or not, are most of your shots of celebs from tips, pre arranged or do you just have a very keen eye for them? I don't think I'd be able to pick out the celeb in a crowd of people lol.
 
Most of the "celebs" I photograph are pre arranged. I need to know I'm getting paid, not on spec.
Biggest problem I've found in recent years is the way some celebs behave. Ones from a previous era (Joan Collins, Norman Wisdom etc) were a dream to work with, knew what I wanted and were polite with it. The ones who got voted 3rd off Big X jungle star (I'm lucky enough to have met a few...) just don't know what is required from them.

Paps, well they are like the rest of us, working to the market, simple demand and supply.
 
Having spent a decade working for the national press I can assure you all that its all a game.

The football team will have sent out press releases telling the press where they will be, the press attend, maybe get too close but thats expected..the manager may have forgotten to tell them he was going to be aggressive but hey its only a game :D:D:D

stew
 
artona said:
Having spent a decade working for the national press I can assure you all that its all a game.

The football team will have sent out press releases telling the press where they will be, the press attend, maybe get too close but thats expected..the manager may have forgotten to tell them he was going to be aggressive but hey its only a game :D:D:D

stew
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Yep...it's all very much pre-arranged. I suspect that this could be the first of the excuses "well, the press were so intrusive it damaged our preparations and thats why we didn't win a single game".
 
grum said:
Is there anything that you wouldn't do? :)
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I've not done "doorstepping" of footballers or WAGs or their kids. Nor would I want to.

If the rampant media machine that rolls around every 4 years demanded that shots of players on safari was required, then I'd do it. Most requests are reasonable, and take place in open/public areas. The FA Media team messed up with the safari by not taking the FA official tog (who would have pooled the images)...that simply meant that every accredited tog went off to the safari park. Easy solution would have been to say "it's a rest day, we're taking the offical tog, he'll pool for you when we're back".

I've had to get shots of Christine Blakeley in the crowd at Stamford Bridge because she was going out with Frank Lampard after he split to Ellen Rives...I've got shots of potential new owners, potential new managers, charlotte church ****ed on a balcony at the Millennium Stadium. I did all that because it's what I was there to do. Yeah, it's a bit unsavoury, but if you don't like it...then you don't do the job.

"Now and then we're asked to do something beyond the call of duty. It's called sacrifice"
 
Edtog said:
Biggest problem I've found in recent years is the way some celebs behave. Ones from a previous era (Joan Collins, Norman Wisdom etc) were a dream to work with, knew what I wanted and were polite with it.
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Back when they where filming International Velvet my grandma and mum snook into the location pretending to be reporters from a small local newspaper. Them were the days when you could blag your way into anything if you looked the part. Anyway, they got some shots of the back of Athony Hopkins (you'd never know it was him) but my grandma asked Tatum O'Neal to pose for her near a nice little window which she was more than happy to do. I'll try and scan it in and post it up.

I doubt many celebs would go out of their way to set up a nice photo now.

A bit off topic but did any of the togs manage to get some good animal shots on safari or was it all work work work?! :lol:
 
jamesb84 said:
I've not done "doorstepping" of footballers or WAGs or their kids. Nor would I want to.

If the rampant media machine that rolls around every 4 years demanded that shots of players on safari was required, then I'd do it. Most requests are reasonable, and take place in open/public areas. The FA Media team messed up with the safari by not taking the FA official tog (who would have pooled the images)...that simply meant that every accredited tog went off to the safari park. Easy solution would have been to say "it's a rest day, we're taking the offical tog, he'll pool for you when we're back".

I've had to get shots of Christine Blakeley in the crowd at Stamford Bridge because she was going out with Frank Lampard after he split to Ellen Rives...I've got shots of potential new owners, potential new managers, charlotte church ****ed on a balcony at the Millennium Stadium. I did all that because it's what I was there to do. Yeah, it's a bit unsavoury, but if you don't like it...then you don't do the job.

"Now and then we're asked to do something beyond the call of duty. It's called sacrifice"
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Interesting post James, this is something i've never really thought about.

How much of this has come from a working brief and how much of it is off your own back?
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Interesting post James, this is something i've never really thought about.

How much of this has come from a working brief and how much of it is off your own back?
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A lot of it's off your own back...picture desks very rarely have enough time or inclination to scour the newspapers on a friday before a match...so if I have the time I check the gossip column on the BBC sports pages, and have a skim of what managers are on a tightrope etc. Having a bit of contextual knowledge goes a long way.

eg. 2 seasons ago Watford fired Aidy Boothroyd the day before they played Swansea City at the Liberty. I was going, and I knew that Malky Mackay was going to be the caretaker manager. They were languishing at the bottom of the championship and Mackay had never managed a side before in his life. Baptism of fire or what?

So, on the day, during the warmups I was keeping an eye out for a "lonely at the top" style shot of Mackay...got a couple of him leading the warm-ups, long exposure type, players blurred around him while he stood pretty stock still. They were alright, but could have been staged.

After the warmups he made his way back to the dugout and sat down. PERFECT. He was on his own, in the dugout staring out at the players. Great shot. Lonely at the top. I would never have even bother looking for that if i'd not done a bit of research first.

Annoyingly, Dicky Heathcote from Getty was stood next to me, his image is:
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/83618891/Getty-Images-Sport

Mine is locked away as it's football league and the agency I worked for doesnt have a licence to publicly display.

Incidentally, couple of weeks later they announced Brendan Rodgers was taking over and that he'd be in the stands at Bristol City...quick google to find a pic of him, and scan the directors box seats before kickoff. SNAP. Thanks very much, first pic of new manager wearing a Watford scarf.

Andy (and those that have viewed my portfolio)...Image 009 of Tony Adams was captured the day before he got fired. Again, you knew it was likely...but no-one specifically told me to get the shot. That earned me a double page spread in the Guardian sport section.

Finally, one that I can show...
s


Everyone knew there'd be trouble at the Cardiff v Swansea fixture...but reports in Wales had said that Swansea's "ultra's" had been infiltrated by some Leeds Utd fans. No Jacks fans would carry a Union Jack, so when this bunch appeared I got the shot to show the police and the "fans" behind. Again, no-one told me to look out for possible violence...but you do so because it's part of the story.
 
grey.squirrel said:
Gareth Gates has minders?! I know he's in Les Mis but I didn't think he was quite that hot property, obviously I need to read more Heat and OK lol..
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it was when he had just made it.. the bloke was a beer monster.. so i call him a minder :)
 
adam* said:
The people in the pictures were mostly (well probably all) accredited media- sports and news photographers from the top newspapers and agencies across the world. I know The Times covered England at the safari. It's their job to cover stories which are of interest to the general public, like this event was. The safari shots were quite nice - a chance to see the players with their guard down, having fun, and not worrying about everything else.

The paps that chased Diana on a moped are a completely different kettle of fish.
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Theres 2 sides to the safari, i was doing a radio show so had to look into this story and they were actually advised to just use the FA Tog and tell other togs not to go and the papers would get the pictures from FA Tog. Instead though capello ignored the advice.

There was also something about the medical room and the window had been left open but the togs acually wernt takeing pictures inside there they just happened to have the lens pointing that way.

Think it was this article http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/international/article7146621.ece
 
KIPAX said:
it was when he had just made it.. the bloke was a beer monster.. so i call him a minder :)
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Explains it all ;)

Great post James, from an outsider it's great to hear about a side of photography that doesn't get much attention round here (or at least I tend to miss it).
 
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