Panorama this evening-China/Covid

JohnC6

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I've posted this separately from the PPE thread so that those who don't go into that forum much or atall but would be interested in a documentary on the subject, have a heads-up on it too.

It's on BBC1 at 7.30- 8.00pm. It's called, "China's Coronavirus Cover Up" It features Prof. Yuen , mentioned in this Independent article, who, in January, diagnosed a family in Schenzhen who had returned from Wuhan, 700 miles away.

 
well it is fair to say the Chinese cover up was massive, I hope when this is all over we see them for what they are
 
well it is fair to say the Chinese cover up was massive, I hope when this is all over we see them for what they are

I wonder what happened to those two young men in the documentary who broadcast to the world about what was happening ?


I suspect we (The West) do see them for what they are.The problem is that China has interests in so many countries..re the poorer ones it's the so-called debt trap, it's students contribute $2.1Bn to our universities who are in hoc to them.btw..Hong Kong students daren't utter a word re what's happened in Honk Kong because the Chinese students,some 'put' there is my belief..report them and their family gets a knock on the door back home. $88bn in Trading Partnerships, involvement in our key industries,including nuclear power.

In defence Malcolm Rifkind has said that previous governments wouldn't have envisaged how the Party would become what it is..an uncompromising authoritarian regime. Theft of intellectual property is par for the course.



A thread on this would be very long and involve what's going on in the South China Sea and East China Seas not to mention the Uighurs which is being covered in another thread..(as you know,Paul) I see we're sending our aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth into the region of the South/East China Sea in support of the US contingent. There have been tensioins at the India-China border..20 Indian soldiers recently killed. It's funding projects in Pakistan,Myanmar,Sri Lanka and Nepal, India's closest neighbours.The purpose is to diminish India's influence..It recently stated that if Taiwan doesn't come under it's rule, as with Hong Kong, it will take it by force within 50 years..

Nepal.....land grab. https://eurasiantimes.com/china-enc...uld-set-up-border-post-in-seized-territories/
 
I can't help but feel that most of the criticism of China is a revamp of the "Yellow Peril" racism of the 1920s.

If we compare modern China with the days of the Cultural Revolution I see a country that has gone a long way to modernise communism into a form of social capitalism, which is not far different from that of Western Europe.

There are legitimate areas of concern about police misbehaviour, apparent mistreatment of minorities and government coverups. The point is that we currently have the same problems in Britain. It seems to me that our electrons would be better expended looking at our own back yard than criticising a distant country based on what appear to me to be unreliable reports.
 
You do realise that you've posted this in the same section as the Virus PPE thread? ;)

This has confused me,Marc. I’ve just checked and my title is in between Mex’s..‘I’ve started smoking’ thread from last night and the one entitled ‘Coincidences’’..PPE is further down the list.. You will be right of course but having checked I’m none the wiser.
 
I would agree with that.
China is very much the whipping boy at the moment for all the worlds problems.
Trump and right wingers here are finding them a useful distraction from them selves and their own short comings.

in hindsight of course China could have done better than they did. Their command structure is a two edged sword..
It confines everything to official channels and insists on things being done by the book...
this is fine when the book covers the problem but is far less good when it does not. or when the problem needs urgent imitative and on the spot decision making.
Officials and frontline staff fear for their own future when making their own decisions.

The UPside of a command structure, is that when a decision has been made and something put into action,
it is carried out at a speed and thoroughness few democracies ever achieve.
After a rather dodgy start China picked up the ball and did an amazingly thorough job..

Whilst the West, especially The USA and to the lesser extent the UK have either vacillated or been in denial,
It was not until Johnson came down with it himself that any planning or urgency came into the equation..
We are still in at lest two minds about everything.

In The USA the situation is still getting worse with little or no coordination or planning at all.
Trump is far more concerned about the upcoming election, than how many are dying.
even then he only cares at all, because it makes him look bad.
 
I wonder what happened to those two young men in the documentary who broadcast to the world about what was happening ?


I suspect we (The West) do see them for what they are.The problem is that China has interests in so many countries..re the poorer ones it's the so-called debt trap, it's students contribute $2.1Bn to our universities who are in hoc to them.btw..Hong Kong students daren't utter a word re what's happened in Honk Kong because the Chinese students,some 'put' there is my belief..report them and their family gets a knock on the door back home. $88bn in Trading Partnerships, involvement in our key industries,including nuclear power.

In defence Malcolm Rifkind has said that previous governments wouldn't have envisaged how the Party would become what it is..an uncompromising authoritarian regime. Theft of intellectual property is par for the course.



A thread on this would be very long and involve what's going on in the South China Sea and East China Seas not to mention the Uighurs which is being covered in another thread..(as you know,Paul) I see we're sending our aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth into the region of the South/East China Sea in support of the US contingent. There have been tensioins at the India-China border..20 Indian soldiers recently killed. It's funding projects in Pakistan,Myanmar,Sri Lanka and Nepal, India's closest neighbours.The purpose is to diminish India's influence..It recently stated that if Taiwan doesn't come under it's rule, as with Hong Kong, it will take it by force within 50 years..

Nepal.....land grab. https://eurasiantimes.com/china-enc...uld-set-up-border-post-in-seized-territories/

The prime function of embassies of all countries has always been to spy on the host countries to the benefit of their own governments and industries.
Do you suppose for one moment that we or the USA are not interested in obtaining details of Chinas technical and scientific advances
and passing them to our own researchers to follow up. commercial espionage is the life blood of embassies.

Scientific Intellectual property used to be passed around the science community as a matter of course. in the university sector it still largely is.
Science and technology can only advance by incorporate what is already know. Commercial interests try to defeat that and call it stealing.
It is not.

China is perhaps spending more on research and development than any other country. That it is overtaking western countries at a prodigious rate, is what America and the west fears. They most certainly do not rely on stealing IP from us for their advances.
I remember when we were saying the same about Japan.. they left us in the Dust..
The west never has had a monopoly of ability intelligence or aptitude. though it has always tried to keep what it had to itself and belittle others.
Now the shoe is on the other foot we start squealing in complaint and jealousy.

The UK is now an also ran in almost everything. Even Finance which has been our bread and butter for generations is failing us.
we are too small to matter any more, on the world stage.
Now we have left the EU we can not even rely on collective power.
Even Australia looks to the USA for leadership, not us.
 
This has confused me,Marc. I’ve just checked and my title is in between Mex’s..‘I’ve started smoking’ thread from last night and the one entitled ‘Coincidences’’..PPE is further down the list.. You will be right of course but having checked I’m none the wiser.

Now I'm confused. You said that you started a new thread for those that don't go into that forum. What did you mean by "that forum"?
 
I can't help but feel that most of the criticism of China is a revamp of the "Yellow Peril" racism of the 1920s.

If we compare modern China with the days of the Cultural Revolution I see a country that has gone a long way to modernise communism into a form of social capitalism, which is not far different from that of Western Europe.

There are legitimate areas of concern about police misbehaviour, apparent mistreatment of minorities and government coverups. The point is that we currently have the same problems in Britain. It seems to me that our electrons would be better expended looking at our own back yard than criticising a distant country based on what appear to me to be unreliable reports.


Just about everything you post I agree with but not on this occasion. First off, I really don't believe that current criticism is racially motivated...ie The Yellow Peril you mention.

It's not so much criticism of China modernising but the way it's doing it. I suppose you could say that modernisation was started with Deng Xiaoping,leader (1978 -89) with his 1979 Open Door Policy and he said..'Black cat..white cat..colour doesn't matter as long as it catches mice.A contradiction between socialism and the market economy does not exist.


You've acknowledged and criticised police misbehaviour, mistreatment of minorities (Uighers) and government cover-ups. They are all internal issues.Everything I highlighted in my post above (reply to Mr Bump) which,I assume prompted your response, was not concerning internal issues apart from the Uighers .Also, when you say " [Problems]..'based on what appear to be unreliable reports'. I'm not clear what problems, in that context, you're referring to since you've acknowledged quote, 'legitimate concerns re police misbehaviour, apparent mistreatment of minorities..(many would challenge the term 'apparant' )and government cover-ups' and haven't highlighted any other issues.
 
Now I'm confused. You said that you started a new thread for those that don't go into that forum. What did you mean by "that forum"?


Yes..I wondered that.... some confusion. I think I've identified the issue. My wrong terminology. I mistakenly used the term 'forum'..'in that forum'..instead of.. 'in that thread'. (ie the PPE thread). Hope that clears it up. Sorry about that.
 
Just about everything you post I agree with but not on this occasion.
It would be worrying if everyone agreed with everyone else on every subject - very Stepford Wives! :D

I stand by my assertion that most of the criticism of China is racist, perhaps I should have emphasised that qualification more. You're quite correct that Deng cleared away Mao's Stalinist cult of personality and opened the road to the current mixed economy.

My point about the manner in which China is treating the Uighurs is that it is very much in line with Communist doctrine. Every member of the commune is expected to share the values and aims of the commune; when they don't, they are clearly in error and it is the duty of the commune to re-educate them. What some western critics see as oppression is seen by the Communist Party as concern for the well being of both the commune and its members. The same applies to Hong Kong.

The idea that there has been a cover-up over Covid is very western and I think represents a misunderstanding of both Chinese and Communist values. I've known enough Chinese people well enough to understand that even the most westernised still take "mian" (face) seriously. At the same time, Communists have always adhered to the doctrine of dealing with errors within the party.
 
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It would be worrying if everyone agreed with everyone else on every subject - very Stepford Wives! :D

Yes, absolutely, it would be worrying but as we often see they don't. I'll put it this way. Many of your opinions chime with mine..how's that ? :)

Ok..down to business..:)

I stand by my assertion that most of the criticism of China is racist, perhaps I should have emphasised that qualification more. You're quite correct that Deng cleared away Mao's Stalinist cult of personality and opened the road to the current mixed economy.

No, 'most' was fine. I got that. I really enjoy meeting people from other cultures so racism is alien to me and would find the criticism of some..well, many..aspects of Party rule purely on the basis of human rights issues when it concerns individuals or ,as in the case of the Uighers , ethnic groups. When institutions like the UNHRC and ILO (Int.Labour Organisation) criticise then I cannot see that being motivated by racism. I have read of incidents of racism on a personal basis generally indulged in by the usual suspects in any community worldwide.


My point about the manner in which China is treating the Uyghurs is that it is very much in line with Communist doctrine. Every member of the commune is expected to share the values and aims of the commune; when they don't, they are clearly in error and it is the duty of the commune to re-educate them. What some western critics see as oppression is seen by the Communist Party as concern for the well being of both the commune and its members. The same applies to Hong Kong.

'Concern for the well being of both the commune and it's members. ?'
I don't see it like that, atall. I don't think many would. That sounds like a response from a Party official to an interviewer. I just see the leadership ensuring that there's no challenge to its authority and control. Regarding that particular situation (the Uyghurs) it seems more to be about religion than ethnicity.There's a war against Islam going on there. It's seen as a threat. Any demonstration of any nature is seen as a threat. and that includes demos re education, health services or unemployment...It's particularly dangerous to demonstrate in support of of some form of democracy as the 1989 Tiananmen Sq protesters found and most recently the students of Hong Kong who ,btw along with those from Macau are being placed in re-education facilities in neighbouring mainland city of Shenzhen...to quote " Enhance their constitutional and national awareness through education". I think they use the term 'education' rather losely..erroneously,even. and ..Hong Kong is required to give national security education through schools ,social groups, media and internet so "Hong Kongers better identify with China and are more law-abiding". They were law-abiding before but not the laws that China wants them to abide by. I cannot see that in the context of what you say..Concern for the well being and of both the commune and its members' In November elections there was a 71% turnout and pro-democracy candidates won 17 of the 18 district councils. There were detractors, mainly middle-aged concerned about the world view of Hong Kong and the economic consequences.. Those being re-educated will be required to visit the likes of Huawei in their free time to quote 'amply experience the mainland's economic achievements'.

The idea that there has been a cover-up over Covid is very western and I think represents a misunderstanding of both Chinese and Communist values. I've known enough Chinese people well enough to understand that even the most westernised still take "mian" (face) seriously. At the same time, Communists have always adhered to the doctrine of dealing with errors within the party.

I do take your point but when a country is dealing with a new highly contagious virus with the potential to become an endemic.let alone a pandemic, there's no place for 'mian' especially with the experience they have re viruses. Some extraordinarily brave people did speak out and were detained.Those two young men in the documentary were arrested and haven't been heard of since. As you know, Dr Li Wenliang was arrested for 'spreading false rumours' and forced to sign a police document stating that he admitted to 'seriously disrupting social order' for which he was reprimanded for sharing information about the virus with colleagues and, as we know, he died of it. The Party held an inquiry re the reprimand and ordered the withdrawal of it..It had created a wave of criticism and I suspect it was that criticism of the Party that lead to the withdrawal. Eight others were disciplined too.The Wuhan authorities were ordered to reprimand the deputy head of the police station who 'authorised' the detention and reprimand when it's commonly believed all he was doing was complying with orders from..the Wuhan authorities who, in turn would be following orders from of those 'at the top' of the Party.The Party also denounced the accolade of 'hero' given to Dr Wenliang .

Discussing China is a massive subject. It should really be under it's own thread title. There's a discussion in another thread..PPE,I think..not sure.

Just checked. It has got its own thread. 'Scary Stuff going on in China (Genocide re Uyghurs) I see Terry....has contributed two posts to this thread . I'll have to take a break and go over them later. It's really time-consuming.

I'll see who's on duty from Staff and ask if this thread can be incorporated in that thread. It would be much better. Not sure if that's possible,though.

Maybe a Staff member will pick this up.

Btw. I never lose my sense of humour.lol. My wife has just come to me and wondering what to have for our meal later has decided we'll have.... 'Chinese'...:D
 
I can't help but feel that most of the criticism of China is a revamp of the "Yellow Peril" racism of the 1920s.
Yep. Didn't we already cover this on the other thread though?

China is perhaps spending more on research and development than any other country. That it is overtaking western countries at a prodigious rate, is what America and the west fears. They most certainly do not rely on stealing IP from us for their advances.
I remember when we were saying the same about Japan.. they left us in the Dust..
The west never has had a monopoly of ability intelligence or aptitude. though it has always tried to keep what it had to itself and belittle others.
Now the shoe is on the other foot we start squealing in complaint and jealousy.
Yep.


The UK is now an also ran in almost everything. Even Finance which has been our bread and butter for generations is failing us.
we are too small to matter any more, on the world stage.
Now we have left the EU we can not even rely on collective power.
Yep.

Short answer-The West is collapsing, as an 'empire'. It got too greedy, and relied on slavery/exploitation/coercion/extreme violence and even genocide, in order to serve its own ends. That was always an unsustainable model, and now it consumes far more than it produces, and is increasingly reliant on the Rest Of The World™ for food, clothing, materials and labour. And now, countries such as the UK, as mentioned, have ever-shrinking power and influence, exposing the USA as the last bastion of Western 'power'.

One look at the Western Propaganda Machine, aka 'the media', reveals a depth of xenophobia that most folk are oblivious to. Meanwhile, while the West criticises China for imposing a regime of fear upon it's citizens, we have our own state apparatus to undermine democracy; police spies have been used to infiltrate and undermine more pro-democracy/left-leaning groups and organisations, for decades now.


BUT WAIT! LOOK OVER THERE! SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING SOMETHING!

It's ok though; we can just blame those nasty foreigners. And Jeremy Corbyn. It must be his fault.
 
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I can't help but feel that most of the criticism of China is a revamp of the "Yellow Peril" racism of the 1920s.

If we compare modern China with the days of the Cultural Revolution I see a country that has gone a long way to modernise communism into a form of social capitalism, which is not far different from that of Western Europe.

There are legitimate areas of concern about police misbehaviour, apparent mistreatment of minorities and government coverups. The point is that we currently have the same problems in Britain. It seems to me that our electrons would be better expended looking at our own back yard than criticising a distant country based on what appear to me to be unreliable reports.

Rubbish.

In fact I'm struggling to believe anyone with a functioning brain posted this.

You should IMO be more than a little ashamed of yourself.

To link Britain with China is just extreme. When was the last time a journalist was disappeared in the UK? When was the last time we had "reeducation camps" in the UK? I could go on but I realise trading posts with anyone who thinks the UK is anywhere near on the same level of China or that cover ups are ok to save face is a lost cause.

Criticism of China is racist? Race card played to death, imo.
 
Rubbish.

In fact I'm struggling to believe anyone with a functioning brain posted this.

You should IMO be more than a little ashamed of yourself.

To link Britain with China is just extreme. When was the last time a journalist was disappeared in the UK? When was the last time we had "reeducation camps" in the UK? I could go on but I realise trading posts with anyone who thinks the UK is anywhere near on the same level of China or that cover ups are ok to save face is a lost cause.

Criticism of China is racist? Race card played to death, imo.

Seems you don't like the Chinese.
Their system certainly has its faults. But is far from being the worst.
The basis of their ethos has not changed much since the days of the emperors.

As to reeducation the UK has been running a program for it for a few years now aimed at potential terrorists. And also in prisons.
However so far we have no camps.
 
Rubbish.

In fact I'm struggling to believe anyone with a functioning brain posted this.

You should IMO be more than a little ashamed of yourself.
Wow. So you disagree with someone (who is, actually, right), and you stoop to questioning their mental ability? Wow. Classy.

To link Britain with China is just extreme. When was the last time a journalist was disappeared in the UK? When was the last time we had "reeducation camps" in the UK? I could go on but I realise trading posts with anyone who thinks the UK is anywhere near on the same level of China or that cover ups are ok to save face is a lost cause.
You really haven't a clue, what actually goes on in the name of Queen and Country. The UK state are just better at covering things up. Our government prefers to murder foreign nationals instead, preferably in some far flung foreign field, that isn't England. Oh, and Dr David Kelly is one 'suicide' that is questionable:


How many others?

To imagine that our own government wouldn't stoop to such low measures, is naive at best, and dangerous at worst. We're sleepwalking towards proper fascism, with the likes of Trump doing the bidding of his puppet masters, and are staring into the abyss of totalitarianism.

BUT WAIT! LOOK OVER THERE! SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING SOMETHING!
 
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"Quote" My point about the manner in which China is treating the Uighurs is that it is very much in line with Communist doctrine."Quote"

As laid down by Lenin, refined by Stalin and raised to a new level by Mao. Agree with the party or go to the Gulag or an unmarked grave.
 
As laid down by Lenin, refined by Stalin and raised to a new level by Mao.
All of whom have been dead for many decades. Most communists have moved on and perhaps it's time for us in the west to do the same?
 
All of whom have been dead for many decades. Most communists have moved on and perhaps it's time for us in the west to do the same?

Xi Jinping's actions since he became General Secretary of the Communist Party of China in 2012 shows that he hasn't "moved on", as you put it, and is following the path taken by both Stalin and Mao. This is shown by this report.

"Quote" To maintain its presence in the South China Sea region, China, for several years, continued its efforts to prevent the Vietnam-based companies developing oil and gas resources in the area. Amid the growing Chinese movement in the South China Sea, Vietnam has agreed to pay around a billion dollars to two international companies after cancelling their drill operations following pressure from Beijing, The Diplomat reported. "End quote."

Will your reply be your usual one that this is all part of the MSM conspiracy?
 
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Xi Jinping's actions since he became General Secretary of the Communist Party of China in 2012 shows that he hasn't "moved on", as you put it, and is following the path taken by both Stalin and Mao.
Whereas Trump's puppet masters seem to be taking the same path as Hitler...

Will your reply be your usual one that this is all part of the MSM conspiracy?
Would that be the same MSM where large chunks most of it is owned by very right-wing, rich, powerful figures such as Rupert Murdoch? Or government controlled state broadcasters such as the BBC?
 
Will your reply be your usual one that this is all part of the MSM conspiracy?
I see no conspiracy here, only a desire to think the worst of people whose culture and norms are different from ours. Of course there are bad people and bad decisions made in China, just as there are bad people and bad decisions made in Britain, America and everywhere else. I happen to think that, given their starting point, the Chinese are making a great deal more progress, both socially and economically, than Britain and America.
 
This reply is for both Andrew Flannigan and AZ6 since you both keep employing the same tactic of not commenting on what is written, but counter with "but look at what others are doing".

I'l ask you both the same direct question. Do you consider that China's action in claiming that the whole of the South China Sea is their territory, and that their bullying actions towards weaker nations are justified, when the UN has said that their territorial claims are illegal under International law?
 
This reply is for both Andrew Flannigan and AZ6 since you both keep employing the same tactic of not commenting on what is written, but counter with "but look at what others are doing".

I'l ask you both the same direct question. Do you consider that China's action in claiming that the whole of the South China Sea is their territory, and that their bullying actions towards weaker nations are justified, when the UN has said that their territorial claims are illegal under International law?
I'm a firm believer in 'get your own house in order before criticising others'. And our house is a proper mess. Is it therefore helpful, or even useful in any way, to keep looking at other people's houses, whilst your own is falling apart? We are sleepwalking towards fascism, and this is being largely ignored in our 'media'. This, to me, is far more worrying, in terms of my own life and those around me, than what is going on abroad, where I have even less influence than I do here. I'm also a firm believer in 'leading by example', and were not really setting a good one right now, are we?

Now; a question for YOU:

What do you consider to be the biggest global threat, the US, or China?

There's a lot of information on the historical behaviour of both nations, in recent times, to help inform your opinion.
 
I'm a firm believer in 'get your own house in order before criticising others'. And our house is a proper mess.
I'm sad to say that such is the bottom line for me too. The WASPs are now a small and increasingly powerless minority in a world that will be dominated, both politically and economically, by the Asian mainland and the Pacific countries. China seems destined to be the major player for the rest of this century, probably in concert with India. I think that Europe and North America will remain economically and militarily important but our leadership will no longer be taken for granted.

It will be a difficult adjustment for those raised on the stereotypes of Fu Manchu and Ming the Merciless.
 
This reply is for both Andrew Flannigan and AZ6 since you both keep employing the same tactic of not commenting on what is written, but counter with "but look at what others are doing".

I'l ask you both the same direct question. Do you consider that China's action in claiming that the whole of the South China Sea is their territory, and that their bullying actions towards weaker nations are justified, when the UN has said that their territorial claims are illegal under International law?


The south China sea is certainly critical to Chinas defence and is effectively the only route that could realistically used for an attack on it.

Like the Artic sea region and to a lesser extent the Antarctic region and the area around the Falkland islands, rights and ownership in the South China sea Is highly disputed by many countries. China is claiming hegemony over the area on historical and geographical grounds. as it has traditionally controlled the area.
The legality of all its claims, in detail, are in doubt. and are disputed by a number of other countries.

While the UN disputes its claims, it has not confirmed any counter claims. Much like the claims around Israel and Palestine.

In the mean time there is no doubt that China is now in control of the area, and has the military strength to enforce it.
The entire region right out to The Atlantic Island of Guam and to the shores of Australia are now with in range of land based Chinese rocket defences, as recently confirmed by the USA.

It is reasonable for other countries to continue to press their claims, however it would perhaps be rather counter productive to got to war over them.

Russia's claims on much of the Artic are going to be a far greater concern to the world over the next few decades..

Border disputes, deep sea mineral rights and fishing rights are perhaps the most commonly argued over in the world today.

The UK is unlikely to come to a final agreement with the EU because of the issue of fishing rights.
 
I'm a firm believer in 'get your own house in order before criticising others'. And our house is a proper mess. Is it therefore helpful, or even useful in any way, to keep looking at other people's houses, whilst your own is falling apart? We are sleepwalking towards fascism, and this is being largely ignored in our 'media'. This, to me, is far more worrying, in terms of my own life and those around me, than what is going on abroad, where I have even less influence than I do here. I'm also a firm believer in 'leading by example', and were not really setting a good one right now, are we?

Now; a question for YOU:

What do you consider to be the biggest global threat, the US, or China?

There's a lot of information on the historical behaviour of both nations, in recent times, to help inform your opinion.

I am assuming that you are a UK resident. I do not believe that we are sleepwalking towards fascism and I find your idea that we are to be interesting.

In 1978/79 I lived and worked in Libya where in addition to Libyans, I came into contact and worked with Algerians, Tunisians, Palestinians, an Egyptian (Gaddafi had recently ordered most Egyptians out of the country) and Bulgarians.

The Bulgarians were disliked by all the other nationalities, including me, because of their attitude, which was that as they were communists they were the only ones who knew the "truth". They referred to all who weren't communists as fascists and were particularly dismissive of the North Africans, regarding them as stupid and ignorant because they believed in Allah.

To answer the question as to which I find the most dangerous, the USA or China, my answer up to five or six years ago would have been the USA, however having seen China's present leader's actions, including the removal of anyone who could pose a threat to his rule, the creation of a personality cult very much in the mould of Mao and the clamping down of any personal expression of dissent from his views I believe that China is now the bigger threat.

I have the advantage of being apolitical, I regard all those who strongly support either the right or left as being equally untrustworthy. Also I am far from the only one who is concerned about the direction China is headed under Xi Jinping. This article entitled Why is Xi Jinping pitting China against the world? appeared in the Guardian recently. You may well find it of interest.
 
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I believe that China is now the bigger threat.
Based on what? Other than what you see reported in Western media?


I have the advantage of being apolitical, I regard all those who strongly support either the right or left as being equally untrustworthy.
Ah, a 'Liberal'. So; being a fence sitter, never really having the confidence to have courage in your own convictions, being a pawn in the game between neoliberalism and the neocons, is an 'advantage? Right. OK... :LOL: Nobody is 'apolitical' To be Human, is to be political.

I never trust Liberals. Give me a died in the wool fascist any day; at least you know where you stand with them... ;)

I am assuming that you are a UK resident. I do not believe that we are sleepwalking towards fascism and I find your idea that we are to be interesting.

So, you can't see it. Unsurprising, neither can the majority of the UK population; like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on s***. But we are sleepwalking towards a fascist dictatorship; fascism is massively on the rise across Europe; take one look at Russia, Poland, across Eastern Europe, Greece, etc. Look at the AfD in Germany, look at Bolsonaro in Brazil, the current Hindu nationalists in power in India. Not to mention our own, and the US administrations. The trouble with fascism, is that people don't see it until it's too late...
 
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I am assuming that you are a UK resident. I do not believe that we are sleepwalking towards fascism and I find your idea that we are to be interesting.

In 1978/79 I lived and worked in Libya where in addition to Libyans, I came into contact and worked with Algerians, Tunisians, Palestinians, an Egyptian (Gaddafi had recently ordered most Egyptians out of the country) and Bulgarians.

The Bulgarians were disliked by all the other nationalities, including me, because of their attitude, which was that as they were communists they were the only ones who knew the "truth". They referred to all who weren't communists as fascists and were particularly dismissive of the North Africans, regarding them as stupid and ignorant because they believed in Allah.

To answer the question as to which I find the most dangerous, the USA or China, my answer up to five or six years ago would have been the USA, however having seen China's present leader's actions, including the removal of anyone who could pose a threat to his rule, the creation of a personality cult very much in the mould of Mao and the clamping down of any personal expression of dissent from his views I believe that China is now the bigger threat.

I have the advantage of being apolitical, I regard all those who strongly support either the right or left as being equally untrustworthy. Also I am far from the only one who is concerned about the direction China is headed under Xi Jinping. This article entitled Why is Xi Jinping pitting China against the world? appeared in the Guardian recently. You may well find it of interest.


Very much agree with this.

Australia is certainly very,very concerned about what is happening with China at the moment and is quite fearful of them.
 
But we are sleepwalking towards a fascist dictatorship;
I don't think you're correct. As things stand at the moment I think we're heading in the opposite direction, with the break up of the UK and perhaps some form of federalism even in England. Mind you, any prediction about politics must be offered with many caveats and taken with a large pinch of salt!

:tumbleweed:
 
I don't think you're correct. As things stand at the moment I think we're heading in the opposite direction, with the break up of the UK and perhaps some form of federalism even in England. Mind you, any prediction about politics must be offered with many caveats and taken with a large pinch of salt!

:tumbleweed:

The present government has lurched quite far to the right.
It is not much bothered about the truth.
Johnson has recently moved closer to the republican point of view on most subjects.
At times his statements are as strange and I'll thought out as Trump's.

The population seem to be drifting in the wind without purpose.
Labour have a new leader so could command the middle ground, but probably alienate the far left.
The Liberals are leaderless.
The greens seem to have lost their voice.
The government is being driven by unelected political advisors.
The only effective leadership is coming from Scotland.

It is unlikely there will be an agreement with the EU. Mainly because of fishing rights.

China is an issue not because they have changed their attitudes or Trading arrangements. But because Trump sees them as the cause of America's decline.
Which of course is not true America has been in decline for years all by itself.
China is on the rise because it is working hard on all the things that it needs to do to be a success.

China does not need a war with America. It could bring it's hitec industries to a holt in days by withholding supplies of rare minerals on which the USA's electronic industry is dependant.
China has been dependant on helium from the USA but has at last found a way to produce its own from the exhaust gasses from natural gas. And at a very much lower cost. True it only has one plant operational yet, but more can be brought on stream very quickly.
If The USA escalates the trade war China will play these trump cards, without a shot being fired.
 
The south China sea is certainly critical to Chinas defence and is effectively the only route that could realistically used for an attack on it.

Like the Artic sea region and to a lesser extent the Antarctic region and the area around the Falkland islands, rights and ownership in the South China sea Is highly disputed by many countries. China is claiming hegemony over the area on historical and geographical grounds. as it has traditionally controlled the area.
The legality of all its claims, in detail, are in doubt. and are disputed by a number of other countries.

While the UN disputes its claims, it has not confirmed any counter claims. Much like the claims around Israel and Palestine.

In the mean time there is no doubt that China is now in control of the area, and has the military strength to enforce it.
The entire region right out to The Atlantic Island of Guam and to the shores of Australia are now with in range of land based Chinese rocket defences, as recently confirmed by the USA.

It is reasonable for other countries to continue to press their claims, however it would perhaps be rather counter productive to got to war over them.

Russia's claims on much of the Artic are going to be a far greater concern to the world over the next few decades..

Border disputes, deep sea mineral rights and fishing rights are perhaps the most commonly argued over in the world today.

The UK is unlikely to come to a final agreement with the EU because of the issue of fishing rights.


Apologies for not getting back to you sooner re your other posts to me. After responding to Andrew F I really needed a break. Life was simpler when it was safe (allowed even)to travel and visit wildlife locations to take photos. I won't risk sitting in hides. In the meantime I've plunged into off-topic forums. :)

I've used your last post as a quote /alert although it was directed to 'Early Man' it covers aspects of what China is about that's causing the problems, as I see it .and it's shorter than the two to me.


First off I'm wondering how you have so much detailed knowledge of the affairs of China...not only the affairs but the 'thinking'. No other posts come anywhere near the level of detail of your input. You posted with equal detail in a thread about the Uighurs but I can't find that thread..Not in Hot Topics and not in Out of Focus/General Discussion unless I've just overlooked it. I'd be less than honest too ,if I didn't say that some of the posts , or sections of them, whether you intended them to be or not, come across as being defensive of the CCP. I say, CCP because it's the regime we're talking about rather than the people which is why I don't think those using the term 'Chinese' is appropriate. I wish politicians would, in relation to Russia too...the other country in the firing line, talk in terms of the Russian/Putin government rather than 'the Russians'.

If you'd rather not disclose that then fair enough.

I don't see the criticism that is being directed at China as the result of failing to understand cultural differences I mean, the way the people of China and the CCP see the world. I strongly disagree with those who believe it's all about racism. Your posts to me, which you've clearly put a lot of effort into, have motivated me to do some research..or to put it in more appropriate terms..some digging around. It's been enlightening.

Just to set the scene, from what I've read. After the death of Chairman Mao Zedong in 1976 China adopted significant economic reforms resulting in rapid growth.People, on a personal level, had more freedom but political freedom remained off the table, so to speak. It was hoped,by the West, that rising income and expanding private enterprise would lead to political freedoms too. It wasn't to be because in 1989 the world saw what happened in Tiananmen Square (1989).Thereafter a loose unstable system of authoritarianism was adopted. Any challenge to the Party would result in imprisonment but more general discussions were allowed..mainly in academia.There was much more in terms of relations with other countries, there was even a semi-independent press which challenged, not the Party per se, but local government. Holding individuals to account,really.

Now, the Party, under the leadership of President Xi Jinping is pushing in the opposite direction over concerns about loss of authority which has lead to an increasingly totalitarian system.(akin to that of Mao).Infact, as he's now abandoned the fixed term policy some worry he will be chairman for as long as he lives..just like Mao 1949-76.

This is what the world sees.

1. August 10 2018.The UN state that reliable sources claim that hundreds of thousands, if not a million, people,(can't be all terrorists) have been placed in re-education camps..officially called..Vocational Education and Training Centers, reportedly outside the legal system, as part of a 'peoples war on terror' No trial, no charges. Those incarcerated made up of mainly Muslim Uyghurs,(long held in contempt )Kazakhs,Kyrgyz and other ethnic Turkic muslims along with christians and foreign citizens such as Kazakhstanis. In your post..16..above you counter by saying that the UK has re-education programmes ..de-radicalisation programmes, nothwithstanding that it's not carried out in camps, there's no comparison whatsoever as outlined in the next paragraph.

I posted in that other thread..the one about the Muslim Uyghurs that I can't locate..that the conditions are appalling and there's a dark room where torture takes place,including pulling out fingernails, brutal beatings and in some cases death. I recall you saying that in any corrective establishment there would be punishment for transgressors. There's punishment and punishment. It seems that the slightest transgression was met with this treatment. That came from a teacher drafted in who, after leaving, told her story on a Radio4 programme recently. You told me that her language, which was translated, was probably Turkic.


2. China's Human Rights record is very poor and comparing it with other countries that are worse doesn't lessen its culpability. There's too much of this. 'Well what about this country or that country...? China doesn't want to change the rule-based system but do want to subvert it (House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee Report 2017/19). It jails activists and in 2017 the authorities allowed Liu Ziaobo,...a Nobel laureate and democracy campaigner to die in prison of liver cancer/multiple organ failure at the age of 61.He was given an 11 year sentence for demanding an end to one-party rule. They wouldn't allow him to travel abroad for treatment. Only one other prize winner (1935) who died in custody was german pacifist Carl Von Ossietzky after spending years in Nazi concentration camps.

3. Crushing the slightest public hint of dissent and imposing a 'social credit' system designed to regulate all personal behaviour. I've read that a person can be banned from venues if they accrue a certain number of negative points. Try to enter..eg a football stadium or cinema and the facial recognition cameras will pick them up.They can also get privileges for an accumulation of positive points.

4. The law change in Honk Kong and , as I pointed out in my second post in this thread , a declaration, very recently, that if Taiwan isn't ceded to China within 50 years they will take it by force.It's been a sovereign state since 1949.

5..It behaves in a bellicose manner towards it's neighbours ..The Philippines,Vietnam, and India. I mentioned in my second post (above) re the 20 Indian soldiers killed by Chinese soldiers recently on the border. It sabre-rattling towards Japan re the disputed Senkaku islands has been at such a level that it's prompted Japan to increase its military capability.

6. South China Sea. As you say, many claims on it from surrounding countries but China is constructing new islands and militarising them with planes and missiles. You mention it's strategic position re any attack on China but it's it's a strategic international waterway too. As you also mentioned there are the minerals. Oil,gas,..the near-shore placer minerals..zircon, monazite, gold, chromite, tin and titaniferous magnetite.


7. There's the so-called Belt and Road initiative re infrastructure in Europe,Asia and Africa. Infact Xinjiang is geographically important to this initiative. Someone observed that roads built to carry trucks etc can also carry military equipment.

It's foreign aid programmes to Africa..SE Asia..and Latin America surpasses that of the US, and is largely in the form of export credits and loans which can plunge weaker economies into a debt trap..I've mentioned that on here too..and this will cause them to sell-off their strategic assets to China. International observers will say that newly-found power will sooner or later translate into military power and could lead to geopolitical conflict. It's increased its defence spending almost five-fold in a decade. It can now challenge US supremacy in the South China Sea. For whatever reason ,Trump pulled out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership...described as the most grievous self-inflicted wound to America's global leadership since the creation of the liberal world order since WW2. A massive gift to China and a massive blow to democratic aspirations in SE Asia.

8. You also stated that there was no IP theft. It's easier if I post this link.


China has enjoyed extremely rapid industrial growth but that surge has been achieved with the labour (mainly women) of those living in rural China who move to the urban areas for work (85% of China's poor live in rural areas) and their working and living conditions are appalling and they endure forced excessive overtime..70 hours a week...have no representation, no social security rights,no employment contracts and suffer severe health risks. Because there's no maternity leave,no child care they have to leave their children with relative back home. One particular occupation involves sandblasting..It's used to treat denim so the fabric has a worn look. I've seen youngsters here wearing jeans and tops like that.The workers are exposed to silica which severely damages the respiratory system causing silicosis, which,if left untreated leads to death. Sandblasting blasting was banned in the EU in 1966.

(I'm sure someone will think..Leicester,Manchester/London ..clothes factories..and that was out of order too but this is accepted practice on a massive scale)

Other countries see how China is progressing and they see an authoritarian regime so China encourages authoritarian regimes by example..Authoritarian capitalism. Look at Turkey-Poland-Hungary. China itself is becoming more and more authoritarian, infact a neo-totalitarian state under Xi Jinping. See point 3 re the social credit system. It's suppression of religious and cultural minorities. It's domineering claims to the South China Sea,other territorial; disputes with other countries in Asia.The buying up of ports and infrastructure. It doesn't help that Trump has managed to alienate allies and turned America inwards. My hope is that he won't be in the White House beyond noon on January 20th.

It's taken a little longer than I'd like to put this together but at least you've had a response albeit a little late.
 
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I stand by my assertion that most of the criticism of China is racist, perhaps I should have emphasised that qualification more. .

The above was Andrew F's reply to me...and you responded with..


Rubbish.

In fact I'm struggling to believe anyone with a functioning brain posted this.


You should IMO be more than a little ashamed of yourself.

To link Britain with China is just extreme. When was the last time a journalist was disappeared in the UK? When was the last time we had "reeducation camps" in the UK? I could go on but I realise trading posts with anyone who thinks the UK is anywhere near on the same level of China or that cover ups are ok to save face is a lost cause.

Criticism of China is racist? Race card played to death, imo.


How rude !!

As you might have read I also do not think that criticism of China (The Party to be exact) is racist in the same way as criticism of the Israeli government for it's policies re the Palestinians is anti-Semetic but I wasn't going to put a 'like' or comment to your post because of the nature of it. Quite unnecessary. AndrewF has obviously decided not to respond ..probably treats the reply with the contempt it deserves.

Here's a reminder for you. Posted by Marcel. Maybe it's not my place to criticise the nature of a post but it felt personal as it was me who instigated the thread and AndrfewF was responding to me.

Mar 24, 2020
We've had a rise in the number of unpleasant posts directed at other members, and it's not acceptable.

I understand certain topics can be frustrating to discuss and opposing opinions can be difficult to swallow.
That said, we'll be issuing thread bans to those who can't be civil and polite (usually despite multiple requests to do so). There have been enough requests to be polite towards each other so there will be no further warnings.

Now more than ever we need to come together as a community and the mod team won't allow a small number of people to ruin it for everyone.
 
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China has enjoyed extremely rapid industrial growth but that surge has been achieved with the labour (mainly women) of those living in rural China who move to the urban areas for work (85% of China's poor live in rural areas) and their working and living conditions are appalling and they endure forced excessive overtime..70 hours a week...have no representation, no social security rights,no employment contracts and suffer severe health risks. Because there's no maternity leave,no child care they have to leave their children with relative back home. One particular occupation involves sandblasting..It's used to treat denim so the fabric has a worn look. I've seen youngsters here wearing jeans and tops like that.The workers are exposed to silica which severely damages the respiratory system causing silicosis, which,if left untreated leads to death. Sandblasting blasting was banned in the EU in 1966.
I don't know how accurate the rest of the content in this very detailed post is, but personally I can't agree with the bit that I'm quoting.
1. I wouldn't say that the migrant workers are mainly women, the ones I've seen are mainly men but there are certainly some women.

2. Their working and living conditions are pretty poor, but through choice - they move to the cities to earn as much money as they can, and they want to take that money back home with them, so they prefer to sleep in the very cheap blockhouses, built for the purpose, rather than to live comfortably and expensively.

3. The overtime is excessive by our standards but not by theirs, and it isn't forced. In fact the opposite is true, if the employer offers them less than about 70 hours per week they move on to somewhere where they can work longer hours and earn more money.

And this long hours, hard work ethic needs to be taken in context - even very senior people do exactly the same, it's probably one of the main reasons why China does so well.

You may be right about sandblasting, that's outside my personal experience, but what I've written above is based on my own knowledge, having been to loads of factories where the vast majority of the shop floor workers are migrants. These migrants work hard for 11 months, then return home for the Chinese New Year. They travel home by train because that's the cheapest method and they have a slow and uncomfortable journey because although China has fantastic trains, the ones used by the migrants are very overcrowded, slow and basic. Some work in the cities for several years, others for just one year, because they can earn a lot of money in just one year.

Hope that helps.
 
Wow I have to ask have any of you even been to there or had close contact with anyone that is from there?

As I said before I may be rather paranoid on this situation but Jon’s last post regarding how the situation has changed is 100% correct.
The new powers have taken over with 110% rule, monitoring is now life there.
Propaganda is back to near soviet extremes and information against the west is non stop.

The new guy is wiping the well known one from history with it all now centred on him.

They may now have shiny city’s, fancier cars and more LV than us but a lot is still dirty money, while a lot might do business well it’s still common for bad practices... make money how ever you can regardless of who it hurts.. baby milk powder, fake alcohol, unsafe building.

Get to big and rich and you will be accused of something and it will all be taken.
do you think jack wanted to give up his selling site? He had become such a powerful figure socially and financially it was a danger to them,some how he was allied to walk away though.

Now with there points system they have reverted to the red coats era off grassing on each other for advancement.
 
I don't think you're correct. As things stand at the moment I think we're heading in the opposite direction, with the break up of the UK and perhaps some form of federalism even in England. Mind you, any prediction about politics must be offered with many caveats and taken with a large pinch of salt!

I'm really not sure why you think we're headed in the opposite direction, when all the evidence says otherwise; there has been a massive increase in far-right political activity across much of Europe, a massive increase in racist attacks, particularly on people from Muslim cultures, a massive increase in anti-Semitism ( I don't mean the b******t smears levelled at Corbyn/the Left, I mean the attacks on Jewish people, synagogues, Jewish cemeteries, anti-Semitic memes and slurs propagated via social media, etc), and most worryingly, the rise to power and prominence of several far-right figures across Europe. We've even seen huge numbers, many thousands of fascist marching in our towns and cities. They never numbered more than a few dozen, a couple of hundred tops, before. So, if you really don't think we are headed towards fascism, I'm sorry, but you've got your head in the sand.

As for China; I don't think it's disputable that untold Human rights abuses are taking place there. But the hard facts are, that the US/West is guilty of far, far greater abuse, murder and genocide, in terms of recent history. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't talk about China, but we really, really need to sort out our own mess. Ignoring that, and focussing only on 'others', is sleepwalking towards fascism.

And a lot of opinion expressed here and elsewhere, regarding China, is founded in fear, ignorance and xenophobia. George Orwell got it right...
 
Wow I have to ask have any of you even been to there or had close contact with anyone that is from there?

As I said before I may be rather paranoid on this situation but Jon’s last post regarding how the situation has changed is 100% correct.
The new powers have taken over with 110% rule, monitoring is now life there.
Propaganda is back to near soviet extremes and information against the west is non stop.

The new guy is wiping the well known one from history with it all now centred on him.

They may now have shiny city’s, fancier cars and more LV than us but a lot is still dirty money, while a lot might do business well it’s still common for bad practices... make money how ever you can regardless of who it hurts.. baby milk powder, fake alcohol, unsafe building.

Get to big and rich and you will be accused of something and it will all be taken.
do you think jack wanted to give up his selling site? He had become such a powerful figure socially and financially it was a danger to them,some how he was allied to walk away though.

Now with there points system they have reverted to the red coats era off grassing on each other for advancement.


No detail, reference or factual information in your post, all just bad opinion. nothing worth commenting on.
 
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Wow I have to ask have any of you even been to there or had close contact with anyone that is from there?
Yeah; my next door neighbour is Chinese.

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