Panasonic FF Mirrorless

[HoppyUK]

Yep

Cameras that nobody asked for and nobody wants...? Or at least not as they currently stand. Panasonic was always going to need some ground-breaking tech to dent Canikon, which is really the secret of Sony's success, but they've missed the mark and may not get a second shot.

Unless you’re into video it seems all the new FF mirrorless are quite a bit behind Sony, and as such it’s very difficult to get enthusiastic. The only thing they’ve done better is the ergonomics, why Sony insist on keeping the gap between the lens and grip so small is beyond me

The video guys are not jumping up and down either...

I'm struggling to find a compelling reason why anyone would want to drop a very substantial sum of money on these (hefty) new cameras with a limited system of costly lenses, and early doubts over AF performance now pretty much confirmed - a vital feature if ever there was one.

A half-baked launch too, in Barcelona, with tight restrictions on what the media could say or show from pre-production cameras, and which seems to have excluded most of the big US media players. Did Panasonic really believe they could jump straight in at the top and simply be handed the crown?

 

[jonneymendoza]

It's very quiet around here. I was expecting to find hundreds of new posts on the S1 and S1R.

Panasonic has just launched two completely new full-frame mirrorless cameras - are they that underwhelming?

I think out of the 3 new releases from canikon and Panasonic. The nikon one was pretty dead.

 

[Andy Into The Wild]

Cameras that nobody asked for and nobody wants...? Or at least not as they currently stand. Panasonic was always going to need some ground-breaking tech to dent Canikon, which is really the secret of Sony's success, but they've missed the mark and may not get a second shot.



The video guys are not jumping up and down either...

I'm struggling to find a compelling reason why anyone would want to drop a very substantial sum of money on these (hefty) new cameras with a limited system of costly lenses, and early doubts over AF performance now pretty much confirmed - a vital feature if ever there was one.

You hit the nail on the head. I can get a brand new grey market A7rii for about £1200 which gives me super high resolution for landscape photography...why would I even consider a camera for over 4 grand? Obviously these are 1st gen so there is no used/grey market but the price is just obscene for what you're getting.

 

[Cagey75]

Am I the only one who wishes 'vloggers' would just F right off in general? not having a 'flippy screen' is NOT a negative in my book, in fact I have one on my current camera and it p***es me off at best of times.

 

[Cagey75]

Cameras that nobody asked for and nobody wants...? Or at least not as they currently stand. Panasonic was always going to need some ground-breaking tech to dent Canikon, which is really the secret of Sony's success, but they've missed the mark and may not get a second shot.



The video guys are not jumping up and down either...

I'm struggling to find a compelling reason why anyone would want to drop a very substantial sum of money on these (hefty) new cameras with a limited system of costly lenses, and early doubts over AF performance now pretty much confirmed - a vital feature if ever there was one.

A half-baked launch too, in Barcelona, with tight restrictions on what the media could say or show from pre-production cameras, and which seems to have excluded most of the big US media players. Did Panasonic really believe they could jump straight in at the top and simply be handed the crown?

I'm not sure what vids you've been watching, but the few I watched hint that the S1 bodies will blow both Nikon's Z series and Canon's R out of the water, and already some are saying it'll KO the A7III too ... I think it's about the most comfy and best looking of the bunch so far and knowing Pany's record with IBIS and again, from what I've seen in the previews, it's going to have an edge. Hand-held high res modes, better IBIS overall than the competition, apparently the best evf seen to date ... there's huge potential

 

[HoppyUK]

You hit the nail on the head. I can get a brand new grey market A7rii for about £1200 which gives me super high resolution for landscape photography...why would I even consider a camera for over 4 grand? Obviously these are 1st gen so there is no used/grey market but the price is just obscene for what you're getting.

For me, the thing about the high price is what it says about Panasonic's, well, two words spring to mind - either arrogance or delusion. Pitching it right up there is all very well if you're offering something uniquely special (eg Leica) or spectacularly good (Sony A9) - and at this level that means outperforming CaNikSon by a clear margin in some or other significant performance aspect. But the new Panasonics don't do that and while I can think of several very good reasons why CaNikSon are better buys, I'm not seeing anything going the other way.

The whole concept sounds like something Panny, Leica and Sigma came up with on the golf course at the 19th Hole - let's get together and take over the world. Sigma, who arguably hold the keys to any success, have always sounded a bit luke warm and detached. We don't even know which lenses they're offering, though we can be pretty sure they'll be the same as those already available in other fittings.

 

[HoppyUK]

Am I the only one who wishes 'vloggers' would just F right off in general? not having a 'flippy screen' is NOT a negative in my book, in fact I have one on my current camera and it p***es me off at best of times.

You're not alone

I'm not sure what vids you've been watching, but the few I watched hint that the S1 bodies will blow both Nikon's Z series and Canon's R out of the water, and already some are saying it'll KO the A7III too ... I think it's about the most comfy and best looking of the bunch so far and knowing Pany's record with IBIS and again, from what I've seen in the previews, it's going to have an edge. Hand-held high res modes, better IBIS overall than the competition, apparently the best evf seen to date ... there's huge potential

I've watched/read all I could find today. I'm not impressed, seriously disappointed actually, though not at all surprised things are not living up to the unrealistic pre-launch hype that seemed to promise the best of everything - which is really why I'm asking if there's any major feature I've somehow missed.

Yes, impressive image-stabilisation but that doesn't do it for me. Nice EVF but that's hardly a must-have feature. And those hi-res modes are just pointless. I know nothing about video and care even less, but those who do are finding too many caveats and questions in the specs.

Your friend Tony Northrup has done a bit of a hatchet job. Like him or not, he knows his stuff on this kind of thing.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&t=501s

 

[Cagey75]

You're not alone



I've watched/read all I could find today. I'm not impressed, seriously disappointed actually, though not at all surprised things are not living up to the unrealistic pre-launch hype that seemed to promise the best of everything - which is really why I'm asking if there's any major feature I've somehow missed.

Yes, impressive image-stabilisation but that doesn't do it for me. Nice EVF but that's hardly a must-have feature. And those hi-res modes are just pointless. I know nothing about video and care even less, but those who do are finding too many caveats and questions in the specs.

Your friend Tony Northrup has done a bit of a hatchet job. Like him or not, he knows his stuff on this kind of thing.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&t=501s

I don't like him and I don't believe he knows any more than the average Joe tbh ... but besides that, I've not seen anything that would deter me from wanting this - seems to tick all my boxes. We do all have different needs and wants, I appreciate that. The things you say don't matter are exactly what I'm after. I want killer IBIS, it's the sole reason I gave M43 a whirl - I also enjoy a really decent evf and hand-held high res capabilities intrigue me as a mostly 'stills' shooter.

 

[justpix]

They're maybe a bit big and heavy but that's what some have been calling for for quite a while. People seem to have concerns about the focusing but the Panasonic MFT cameras are blisteringly fast for many uses and these new FF cameras may also be good enough for the vast majority of people - if they're honest about their needs. Time will tell.

I do wonder if these cameras will have any advantage for Leica lenses and if they do that'll be enough of a draw to clinch it for some.

I'll be sticking with my Sony for the foreseeable.

Hi, I wouldn't expect much here.

Even the Leica SL offers spotty support for Leica M mount lenses, as I found in Leica fora, although Leica knows its lenses and even gives profiles
for them in the SL menu.

Of course, it depends on how many and which Leica lenses one has. (I have 30 Ms, and some Rs.)

Having gone down the long and expensive road of adapting Leica M lenses to SONYs, I have extremely low expectations for the new mirrorless (Pana, Nikon, Canon, Sigma)
because even Leica cannot do it properly with the SL.

Some people say, you can always correct colour shift in PP. I find this kind of Pee-Pee ...

But, maybe, there will be a great surprise ... ---

Wouldn't that be nice ?

 

[nandbytes]

It's very quiet around here. I was expecting to find hundreds of new posts on the S1 and S1R.

Panasonic has just launched two completely new full-frame mirrorless cameras - are they that underwhelming?

They are not underwhelming but they are not overwhelming either.

Who would be interested in this? Certainly not people on a budget and as mentioned above it makes Sony look cheap. Canikon users have either swapped to Sony or are going to stick with their own brand to make use of their glass for now.

Video features are always the cherry on top, it doesn't sell the camera to masses. You don't see people shouting out for A7SII. Some people buy bodies for video features alone but most buy for the stills first.

Also its bulkier than a DSLR and that's not good IMO.
Seems like Samsung nx1 all over again but with a FF sensor and higher price tag.

Perhaps sigma will come to the rescue, but we'll see.

 

[snerkler]

Cameras that nobody asked for and nobody wants...? Or at least not as they currently stand. Panasonic was always going to need some ground-breaking tech to dent Canikon, which is really the secret of Sony's success, but they've missed the mark and may not get a second shot.

The video guys are not jumping up and down either...

I'm struggling to find a compelling reason why anyone would want to drop a very substantial sum of money on these (hefty) new cameras with a limited system of costly lenses, and early doubts over AF performance now pretty much confirmed - a vital feature if ever there was one.

A half-baked launch too, in Barcelona, with tight restrictions on what the media could say or show from pre-production cameras, and which seems to have excluded most of the big US media players. Did Panasonic really believe they could jump straight in at the top and simply be handed the crown?

I do wonder if the Panasonic name is enough to carry such an expensive system. When I speak to average Joe they don't consider Panasonic a 'top brand' and many don't associate them with being a camera manufacturer. TBH, before I got into photography I was one such person.

Now obviously those with more interest in photography will know better, but if they're wanting new custom would some people give them a second glance when the new system is arguably priced higher than Canikon? Just a thought.

I think out of the 3 new releases from canikon and Panasonic. The nikon one was pretty dead.

Despite the specs being disappointing in a number of places from what I hear people who have the Z's are very happy indeed. For me it's the best ergonomically (including button layout) of the lot, and of course IQ is top notch. We forget that not everyone shoots BIF, or the most demanding sports.

Am I the only one who wishes 'vloggers' would just F right off in general? not having a 'flippy screen' is NOT a negative in my book, in fact I have one on my current camera and it p***es me off at best of times.

I'm not a fan of flip screens either, one of the negatives for me if I do go ahead and upgrade the EM1 to the EM1-II

I'm not sure what vids you've been watching, but the few I watched hint that the S1 bodies will blow both Nikon's Z series and Canon's R out of the water, and already some are saying it'll KO the A7III too ... I think it's about the most comfy and best looking of the bunch so far and knowing Pany's record with IBIS and again, from what I've seen in the previews, it's going to have an edge. Hand-held high res modes, better IBIS overall than the competition, apparently the best evf seen to date ... there's huge potential

I can't say I've seen that tbh. It's better in some areas no doubt, but whether it will be better as a system we'll see. The crazy lens prices could stop it from going anywhere tbh.

 

[HoppyUK]

I do wonder if the Panasonic name is enough to carry such an expensive system... <snip> The crazy lens prices could stop it from going anywhere tbh.

That's it really. No doubt these are very good, very well made cameras, but they're only exceptional in a couple of secondary areas while falling short on some major features (eg tracking AF and lens range).

Panasonic, known as an electronics manufacturer of consumer grade M4/3 cameras, has no brand equity at this level. They're asking buyers to make a huge leap of faith - for what?

Bizarrely though, I just wonder what we'd all be thinking if this camera was Leica-branded with a sprinkling of their magic marketing fairly dust? Somehow that changes everything and while I'm no Leica fan I do respect their heritage and engineering and suddenly the whole concept becomes desirable - and cheap

 

[woof woof]

Bizarrely though, I just wonder what we'd all be thinking if this camera was Leica-branded with a sprinkling of their magic marketing fairly dust? Somehow that changes everything and while I'm no Leica fan I do respect their heritage and engineering and suddenly the whole concept becomes desirable - and cheap

No disrespect meant to you here Richard and I know you're not really in the following group... but that paragraph highlights everything I dislike about badge snobbery and fanboyism. I've never really got the whole Leica and wider Made In Germany mystique, it just means nothing to me and those who happily pay inflated prices for Panasonic camera rebadged as Leicas or averagely performing Leica products at inflated prices wrapped in marketing speak just baffle me. Good luck to them though, it's a free world, their money, life is short etc...

 

[simonbarker]

Sounds like you're agreeing with each other.

 

[snerkler]

That's it really. No doubt these are very good, very well made cameras, but they're only exceptional in a couple of secondary areas while falling short on some major features (eg tracking AF and lens range).

Panasonic, known as an electronics manufacturer of consumer grade M4/3 cameras, has no brand equity at this level. They're asking buyers to make a huge leap of faith - for what?

Bizarrely though, I just wonder what we'd all be thinking if this camera was Leica-branded with a sprinkling of their magic marketing fairly dust? Somehow that changes everything and while I'm no Leica fan I do respect their heritage and engineering and suddenly the whole concept becomes desirable - and cheap

Completely agree with this sentiment. They could probably charge double the price and 'no-one' would bat an eyelid and it'd just be yet another expensive Leica product. Brand sells, and I would say above everything else. If people bought purely on what's best for a price point I very much doubt Canon would be top of the sales lists, they certainly wouldn't have the lion's share they have now.

 

[HoppyUK]

Completely agree with this sentiment. They could probably charge double the price and 'no-one' would bat an eyelid and it'd just be yet another expensive Leica product. Brand sells, and I would say above everything else. If people bought purely on what's best for a price point I very much doubt Canon would be top of the sales lists, they certainly wouldn't have the lion's share they have now.

Agree. Brands are immensely powerful and pull at our emotions, and pockets, whether we admit to it or not. They can skew objective judgement too. Lack of brand equity is perhaps the main reason why Samsung got nowhere with the NX1 that was a arguably a market leader in every other respect. Now if they could shoe-horn the Panasonic S1R into a Leica SL body and give it some Leica-ness* I'd be thinking wow, what a bargain!

*You know, with a few quirky features, in army-green with uncomfortable sharp edges just to remind you it's a Leica.

 

[Ste_S]

Panasonic, known as an electronics manufacturer of consumer grade M4/3 cameras, has no brand equity at this level.

That's not entirely true. Whilst they haven't had a camera at this price point before, they've been selling plenty of GH5's for professional video use and have got a good reputation from that

 

[Cagey75]

That's not entirely true. Whilst they haven't had a camera at this price point before, they've been selling plenty of GH5's for professional video use and have got a good reputation from that

Sony were thought of as same not all that long ago, now look at them.

Panasonic know electronics, they are a solid brand all-round, their cameras are no exception. And yes, their cameras are used by plenty of pro videographers too. People just like to slate M43 as not being 'pro' for whatever reason, there's plenty of pro photographers use the system too. It's like pros or the average higher end gear head can't even mention Olympus or Panasonic without also mentioning the sensor size. It seems to bother them a lot more than the people actually using and enjoying the system, they do know we also had the choice to choose other systems right?

 

[HoppyUK]

That's not entirely true. Whilst they haven't had a camera at this price point before, they've been selling plenty of GH5's for professional video use and have got a good reputation from that

Brands are about consumer perception, hard won over time with all the vagaries that go into the subjective melting pot. Panasonic has no brand equity in the FF arena in either video or stills, and to my mind it's simply too much of a stretch from M4/3, particularly at this price level.

Sony were thought of as same not all that long ago, now look at them.

Panasonic know electronics, they are a solid brand all-round, their cameras are no exception. And yes, their cameras are used by plenty of pro videographers too. People just like to slate M43 as not being 'pro' for whatever reason, there's plenty of pro photographers use the system too. It's like pros or the average higher end gear head can't even mention Olympus or Panasonic without also mentioning the sensor size. It seems to bother them a lot more than the people actually using and enjoying the system, they do know we also had the choice to choose other systems right?

I would say Sony was different. They didn't break through on the strength of their brand but on technology-led features and performance. They got nowhere with DSLRs but have cracked it in mirrorless with outstanding sensors and particularly with AF performance that was for so long the Achilles Heel for mirrorless. And now with a decent lens set and ever-advancing tech they're building a strong brand position while Canikon are still playing catch-up.

I hear what you say about M4/3 but full-frame has consumer focus ATM and all the major manufacturers (except Olympus) are ramming it home because that's where the profit margin is. Smaller formats are under a lot of pressure both from above and below with no obvious way out. I would just add though that this is about what kit people are buying which has very little to do with who's actually taking great pictures.

 

[Cagey75]

Eurgh, T Northy has a moaning video up already. Well, this time he's actually recommending an M43 body over it Make up yer mind matey!

 

[Cagey75]

I can't say I've seen that tbh. It's better in some areas no doubt, but whether it will be better as a system we'll see. The crazy lens prices could stop it from going anywhere tbh.

Chris Nicolls says just that, pretty much word for word, that it already blows the Z and R out of the water for feature set/ergonomics

Don't get me wrong lads, I'm no brand whore, I couldn't give a monkey's what tag is on my gear. But I've not been excited by any of the FF ML offerings to date, the Sony looks about the overall best but I really don't like their design - I could get used to it though. I could jump to any make or model at any moment, without a second thought. It's not like I need be in any hurry though, I don't get paid for my photography so it's straight up only me I have to please. I just like to see more options. Feels like most are just hoping Panasonic fail miserably here, why? no idea ...

 

[snerkler]

Chris Nicolls says just that, pretty much word for word, that it already blows the Z and R out of the water for feature set/ergonomics

Don't get me wrong lads, I'm no brand whore, I couldn't give a monkey's what tag is on my gear. But I've not been excited by any of the FF ML offerings to date, the Sony looks about the overall best but I really don't like their design - I could get used to it though. I could jump to any make or model at any moment, without a second thought. It's not like I need be in any hurry though, I don't get paid for my photography so it's straight up only me I have to please. I just like to see more options. Feels like most are just hoping Panasonic fail miserably here, why? no idea ...

I'm not sure people are wanting Panny to fail tbh, I'm not anyway I can't speak for everyone obviously but I feel that a lot of folk expected this camera to be mind blowing, but it's not. I think the difference between Panny and Canikon (for which people didn't expect anything great in the first gen) is that Panny have already pretty much mastered mirrorless and just (maybe wrongly) assumed they could just translate this across to FF. I expected the photography side to at least be on par with Sony, and video to be better.

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm not sure people are wanting Panny to fail tbh, I'm not anyway I can't speak for everyone obviously but I feel that a lot of folk expected this camera to be mind blowing, but it's not. I think the difference between Panny and Canikon (for which people didn't expect anything great in the first gen) is that Panny have already pretty much mastered mirrorless and just (maybe wrongly) assumed they could just translate this across to FF. I expected the photography side to at least be on par with Sony, and video to be better.

I don't want Panasonic to fail either, but they were talking it up just a couple of weeks ago and promised a lot. The doubt was always around AF performance and while Depth From Defocus can provide the same advantages as phase-detect in theory, Canikson ditched alternatives to phase-detect a long time ago. Maybe it's good enough for the less demanding needs of M4/3 that mask any shortcomings, but FF is much more demanding and we haven't seen it in action with really testing faster lenses yet.

Why they went for an early launch ahead of production and without any news of Sigma's vital contribution is simply bewildering and begs a few questions. Just how committed are the joint venture partners? What does this say about the longer term? Who's going to pre-order when we don't even know what we're buying in to?

The pre-launch optimism from hopeful buyers has now evaporated and been replaced by a depressing combination of skepticism and indifference. It's a tough road ahead.

 

[nandbytes]

I think sigma is just trying to diversify and not have all their apples in one basket.
Its quite clear sigma only ever produces things for major players with a good amount of users or a growing user base. While they may develop lenses for L-mount and a L-mount body I imagine it'll be a replacement for current sigma mount lenses+bodies which have DSLR style mount and flange. They were never really their main aim, their main business was to sell 3rd party lenses to canikon users.
So I imagine many of their L-mount lenses will probably make their way to canikon. I wonder if they'll make the same lenses for sony too with the whole small mount diameter fiasco? But then if they make lenses for sony and want to use the same design for other mirrorless FF mounts then they'd have to design lenses for the terrible small mount and all those benefits of having a large mount diameter would be lost. So which is it?

 

[tijuana taxi]

Only certain amount of money in one market so why all try to get a small piece of everything.

Sony are without doubt the FF mirrorless leaders
Fuji with their X-trans APSC
Olympus and Panasonic with m4/3, the latter especially with video
Canon and Nikon with DSLR's particularly for the professional sports and wildlife photographers

They could concentrate at what they are good at and make those products better, now they have toes dipped in everything
Must be so expensive just from a tooling up and production aspect let alone R and D

 

[nandbytes]

Only certain amount of money in one market so why all try to get a small piece of everything.

Sony are without doubt the FF mirrorless leaders
Fuji with their X-trans APSC
Olympus and Panasonic with m4/3, the latter especially with video
Canon and Nikon with DSLR's particularly for the professional sports and wildlife photographers

They could concentrate at what they are good at and make those products better, now they have toes dipped in everything
Must be so expensive just from a tooling up and production aspect let alone R and D

Its not wanting a small piece of everything, i think issue is they are not sure which piece will the big on in the future so they are placing their initial investment everywhere. once one sector starts gaining the upper hand they'll probably drop others.

Didn't sony claim to be top or second in FF market for last year or so?
I think Sony outsells fuji in APS-C market. Sigma seems ignore fuji for their APS-C mirrorless lenses.
Olympus also greatly outsells Panasonic I think in m43 market. Video market is very diverse on other hand. People use all sorts from iphones to really highend canon/sony/etc etc.
I don't think sigma sees canon and nikon DSLRs to have a great future with things moving towards mirrorless. Originally they had their SA mount which they used for all testing of DSLR design lenses. They went mirrorless with SA mount but the flange design is too large for current mirrorless bodies. So I think they decided instead of making yet another mount (which sigma said they were thinking of) its probably better to use L-mount for developing and testing their new mirrorless designs for lenses.