Our steel industry

cambsno

cambsno

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Needs protection or not, discuss?

Although I am against state intervention in most things this is one time when Cameron should grow some balls and do something. Whack an import tax on Chinese steel to a)make it fair or b) give proceeds to areas affected.

Steel is something we all use in some way and its criminal that in years to come we could lose this. People are comparing this to the bank bail out. A bit different as if banks go the whole market crashes but I do believe this is almost as important. Not just for the workers but the knock on effect in their suppliers.

Take a chunk of money from the aid or eu budget and spend on this!
 
This is just a side effect of being in EU. We cannot levy taxes on cheaper imports to protect our own industry.

The yanks do.
 
In the other closed thread I mentioned a few points:

Just a note on the steel industry. What steel mills are left in the UK? Genuinely interested in this as we have a few UK national programmes that do require it.
I'm guessing that the steel for hs2 should it go ahead will be, of foreign origin? What about our submarine and ship building industry (assuming trident 2 and type 23 production goes ahead) Are we buying in stuff for that?
If it's of foreign origin trident 2 could be compromised before it even sets sail!
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That's not me saying foreign steel is rubbish I like all steels from all countries and all compositions.
Where we could have a weak link is one of the attributes we hold quit closely about our subs is the thickness of the steel used on the pressure hull. It's not inconceivable that a foreign supplier could work our what the steel is for and work out what thickness the hull is. This can then work out to be it's max depth it can go to. One of key performance specs we don't let our friends know, let alone anyone else.

It sounds a bit far fetched but something to think about
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Since that post, I've found out that one of the places closing is the place we get our shipbuilding steel from.
I think it was a guardian piece that mentioned a BAE spokes person saying they have enough for the ships in production... but since Trident 2 isn't yet, it leaves me thinking we could still have a problem

oh and the MOD spokes person said
its not our problem go see our contactors
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cambsno said:
Whack an import tax on Chinese steel to a)make it fair or b) give proceeds to areas affected.
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That would only protect our steel industry for domestic consumption - it would do nothing to improve British steel's competitiveness globally. It would also likely lead to retaliatory tariffs from China - and we need them more than they need us.

Mr Bump said:
The yanks do.
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The US, being a large country, has a large local market for steel so the tariffs go some way to protecting local suppliers. However, sheltering them from the global market has made American steel non-competitive - despite having local iron ore and cheap energy, the industry is inefficient.

Protectionist tariffs are a poor long-run solution. as the US car industry discovered. Eventually your efficient competitors can compete even with the tariffs in place. And then you're in real trouble.
 
unemployed steel workers probably cost a lot more than over many years.
 
I would argue we buy more from China than we export there so doubt they would whack tariffs up.
 
cambsno said:
I would argue we buy more from China than we export there .
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Quite. So if we whack import tariffs on steel, they'll do the same with malt whisky and gin.
 
Mr Bump said:
unemployed steel workers probably cost a lot more than over many years.
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Agreed, but those workers would be more economically beneficial working in an industry in which we are competitive.
 
Our steel industry? the plants that are closing are Indian owned, they're not ours. Three plants are closing but there another twenty four major steel works still operating in the UK and many other smaller ones. 1200 folk losing their jobs in the UK because cheap Indian steel can't compete with cheap Chinese steel is not good news but it's far from the end of the line for steel making here.
 
Steep said:
Our steel industry? the plants that are closing are Indian owned, they're not ours. Three plants are closing but there another twenty four major steel works still operating in the UK and many other smaller ones. 1200 folk losing their jobs in the UK because cheap Indian steel can't compete with cheap Chinese steel is not good news but it's far from the end of the line for steel making here.
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Not all steel plants are equal tho, well there products ain't.

From what I've read the Dalzell plan was the only one capable of producing certain type of steel used in our submarines.
 
cambsno said:
But as we buy more from them, they would lose out if tariffs came in.
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I thought we were talking about import tariffs?
How would a UK tariff on imported Chinese steel affect other Chinese exports to the UK?
 
Llamaman said:
I thought we were talking about import tariffs?
How would a UK tariff on imported Chinese steel affect other Chinese exports to the UK?
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Think we are at crossed wires? I said we should out an import tax on their steel, so we can buy it here but evens the playing field. You said that if we did that they would tax our goods we send there, but as we buy more from them than they buy from us it would cost them more?
 
What we loose is the skills and the intellectual property (e.g. the patents on processes etc.) and we will never get them back. These things cannot just be turned on and off, once they are gone the costs of starting from scratch are just too high, not least because you have to import all the plant and the knowledge of how to set it up and operate it. We have lost so many key industries in which we were once world leaders over the last 30 years or so that we need to stop the rot.

Not to mention the fact that long term it probably costs more to have people on benefits than it does to subsidize the steel industry
 
cambsno said:
Think we are at crossed wires? I said we should out an import tax on their steel, so we can buy it here but evens the playing field. You said that if we did that they would tax our goods we send there, but as we buy more from them than they buy from us it would cost them more?
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Not crossed wires - I understand your point but strongly disagree with both your facts and analysis.

UK imports of Chinese steel in 2014: £203m
Chinese imports of UK whisky: £240m (including direct and via Singapore)

Add to that the fact that the UK only represents 0.25% of China's steel exports, whereas China represents 6% of our whisky exports and it's clear who has the stronger hand.
 
cambsno said:
Although I am against state intervention in most things this is one time when Cameron should grow some balls and do something. Whack an import tax on Chinese steel to a)make it fair or b) give proceeds to areas affected.
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A significant part of the reason for the high price of home produced steel is energy costs. Perhaps he could repeal the Climate Change Act introduced by the Brown government with its contingent Carbon Reduction Committment that has caused the growth in energy prices to level the playing field a bit?


cambsno said:
People are comparing this to the bank bail out. A bit different as if banks go the whole market crashes but I do believe this is almost as important.
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People are wrong. Steel is a commodity which can be bought globally.
 
Llamaman said:
Not crossed wires - I understand your point but strongly disagree with both your facts and analysis.

UK imports of Chinese steel in 2014: £203m
Chinese imports of UK whisky: £240m (including direct and via Singapore)

Add to that the fact that the UK only represents 0.25% of China's steel exports, whereas China represents 6% of our whisky exports and it's clear who has the stronger hand.
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Ok. So steel is less than whisky but what do we buy form China in total and what do we sell in total. My money is on we import more than we export
 
cambsno said:
Ok. So steel is less than whisky but what do we buy form China in total and what do we sell in total. My money is on we import more than we export
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So are you advocating tariffs on ALL Chinese goods? That's not what you've been advocating until now and would be a diplomatically HIGHLY provocative act.
 
Llamaman said:
So are you advocating tariffs on ALL Chinese goods? That's not what you've been advocating until now and would be a diplomatically HIGHLY provocative act.
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No, protect our industry now and if tariffs need to be there for steel then fine. If they then chose to tax our whisky then we can then tax the rest of their stuff. Provocative, no, standing up for industry and an essential material is what it is.
 
cambsno said:
No, protect our industry now and if tariffs need to be there for steel then fine. If they then chose to tax our whisky then we can then tax the rest of their stuff. Provocative, no, standing up for industry and an essential material is what it is.
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One other problem of such protectionism - any industry of ours that requires the purchase of steel will be at a disadvantage as you will have made their purchase of steel more expensive, hurting their chances of successfully and competitive exports, and also hurting our domestic consumers by forcing them to pay higher prices.
 
cambsno said:
No, protect our industry now and if tariffs need to be there for steel then fine. If they then chose to tax our whisky then we can then tax the rest of their stuff. Provocative, no, standing up for industry and an essential material is what it is.
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We would never dare embargo the world's second largest economy. It's an empty threat and the Chinese would know that.
 
Well my answer for where we will get the steel for UK projects has been answered....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shameless-tories-spend-millions-swedish-6718098

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oubled-industry-sheds-3-000-jobs-Britain.html

Not the best sites for news I know.....

For those wondering if a UK plan could do the job:
http://www.theguardian.com/business...el-expected-to-announce-1200-job-losses-in-uk

Gareth Stace, director of UK Steel, said: “Dalzell is the only site in the UK capable of rolling steel for use in the Trident replacement and for armour plating for the armed forces. Does [the defence secretary] Michael Fallon understand that if that site closes, the army and navy will have to go abroad for steel that is used for national security purposes? It’s a really significant issue.”
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