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Steve T

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Decided to have a look at windows 8 videos on utube and I don't think i am going to like it,so had a look around at what else is out there. Never even looked at linux before but watched a few vids of 'Mint' and thought it looked the job especially as it's free. Had a bit more of a dig around I just installed the Ubuntu to run along side windows download and had a bit of a play. I have to say, it seems really nice, not that I know a great deal about it, but from what I have gathered there are very few if Any virus issues with it, you have access to a massive amount of apps and most of the software most people are likely to want, is free. After this initial perusal, I wonder why I have never come across it before. I'm a bit fed up with keep having to pay for windows every time they decide to change it, so I might go with this free open source OS in future.

Anyone have any thoughts on it's pros and cons or any similar OS worth looking at.
 
Steve T said:
Decided to have a look at windows 8 videos on utube and I don't think i am going to like it,so had a look around at what else is out there. Never even looked at linux before but watched a few vids of 'Mint' and thought it looked the job especially as it's free. Had a bit more of a dig around I just installed the Ubuntu to run along side windows download and had a bit of a play. I have to say, it seems really nice, not that I know a great deal about it, but from what I have gathered there are very few if Any virus issues with it, you have access to a massive amount of apps and most of the software most people are likely to want, is free. After this initial perusal, I wonder why I have never come across it before. I'm a bit fed up with keep having to pay for windows every time they decide to change it, so I might go with this free open source OS in future.

Anyone have any thoughts on it's pros and cons or any similar OS worth looking at.
Click to expand...

Well I don't like win 7 so I used nlite and totally stripped XP Pro down to the bone - now it self installs in 13 mins,all drivers installed and the desktop set up as I want it.

I have it installed on 4 partitions (3 of 10Gb and 1 of 15GB) and uses very little resources.

And no more crappy updates from Microsoft - in fact MS can't even recognise it any more.

And it's still stable - I can easily render 24 DVDs into X-Vid all at once with no probs!

.
 
Nikon Fan said:
Well I'm still perfectly happy with XP.
Click to expand...

So are tens if not hundreds of Millions of people out there.

But I suppose even computers will no longer be able to install it eventually.

.
 
Yes...

You don't pay for it, so expect to have to dig under the covers.

When I installed Ubuntu as a desktop (9.04 IIRC) I found so many UI bugs it was unreal. I've also just installed 11.10 on a small form factor PC used for xbmc. When installing I found that the wireless stack was iffy (I wasn't getting a stable connection so I installed the manufacturers laktest drivers to find the problem worse) hibernate didn't work reliably and I had to coax the card to speak to my powerline router. I may just be unlucky but it appears that if you want to do anything out of the ordinary, time to start compiling drivers/looking for fixes. I've also found that the "compatible" OpenOffice suite renders documents differently compared to Word. That's not good if you're sharing with colleagues.

Of course, this may not worry you as a "standard" user who just does the basics. It annoyed the heck out of me - so much so I reinstalled XP on the machine for 9 months.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti-Linux/Unix, I actually have 4 Linux/BSD machines here. The Linux machines are dedicated xbmc boxes, the FreeBSD is my server.

To be honest, the best and most seamless experience I have is with the FreeBSD based server. I use the PC-BSD distribution. Although I don't extensively use the UI, it seems the "best" as far as stable packages and ports go. You may be a little behind the times, but everything works as advertised.

Your mileage WILL definitely vary.
 
My beloved old xp pc died last week :'( and this one i'm on now, is on vista which I didn't like from day one. I am pretty fed up actually, windows 7 seems to be everyones fav apart from the mac zealots and windows 8 is launching this year so 7 will soon be old hat. The fact that ubutu and mint etc are more or less free and continually evolving very much appeals.

Windows seems like a bit of a ****** take to me and I don't trust it somehow, seems to prey on us all with the mystique of a 'new version' every couple of years.

I shall soon be completely upgrading all my comp stuff and the OS needs to be solid, I'm fed up with pointless learning curves engineered by people selling me essential stuf.
Who and what to trust...:thinking:.
 
Oh... that's the other thing. Unless you're on an LTS release (12.04 will be the next for Ubuntu) you're off to upgrade your OS every 6-12 months as the last one isn't fully supported..

IMHO, you have tyo be MAD to use Linux as a stable environment. Yes, the OS is stable, but that's hidden from you by the buggy UI...........
 
Andy, both your's and Neils honest opinions are very much welcomed by everyone on here I should think Mate:thumbs:
 
I'm personally really looking forward to Windows 8.

You can turn off the Metro start menu/interface and have a normal Windows experience underneath with some changes.

The improvements on Windows 7 I've already noticed are better handling of multiple monitors and Hyper-V built in (but only for i5 and i7 processors, not older ones), so you can run Windows 7 and have guests running alongside accessible from the host OS.

With Windows 8 arrives decent Windows tablets. An app written for the Metro UI will work on both x86/x64 processors and ARM processors, so if Adobe write the next Photoshop for use in Metro, you will have the same app on your PC and your tablet. I'm looking forward to full apps on my tablet, not just cut down variants.
 
Steve T said:
How do you do that?
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The computer shop that looks after my computer, I'm now on my second major upgrade, still with the same case which has my Windows XP licence key, apparently you can contact Microsoft and tell them that you are upgrading the motherboard and whatever, and they will re licence the new set up as it is being installed.
 
Nikon Fan said:
The computer shop that looks after my computer, I'm now on my second major upgrade, still with the same case which has my Windows XP licence key, apparently you can contact Microsoft and tell them that you are upgrading the motherboard and whatever, and they will re licence the new set up as it is being installed.
Click to expand...

If its an oem copy you're not supposed to re register after major licence components, you're certainly not allowed to transfer it to a new machine. Although its a bit of a loophole that you can go through the ms phone line and can probably bs your way into getting an activation code.
 
I've installed Ubuntu 11.10 for my inlaws. They are in their sixties/seventies and were used to XP. They are loving it and it has breathed new live into their ageing kit that they deemed still good enough.

they happily write their documents, use their scanner, print, email, browse, Skype to australia, and prefer shotwell over pse...I think it works very very well...
 
dejongj said:
I've installed Ubuntu 11.10 for my inlaws. They are in their sixties/seventies and were used to XP. They are loving it and it has breathed new live into their ageing kit that they deemed still good enough.

they happily write their documents, use their scanner, print, email, browse, Skype to australia, and prefer shotwell over pse...I think it works very very well...
Click to expand...
And there you have the profile of people who use the PC minimally. Yup.. Ubuntu works fine when you're on piste.......
 
neil_g said:
If its an oem copy you're not supposed to re register after major licence components, you're certainly not allowed to transfer it to a new machine. Although its a bit of a loophole that you can go through the ms phone line and can probably bs your way into getting an activation code.
Click to expand...
Please define new machine...

I've gone through 2 mobo changes with my OEM version. The first was 1156->1155 and that was painless and involved me pressing a button in the GUI. The second was when Intel boogered up the first Sandy chipsets so I got a copy mobo with just a new chipset on. That one, I had to activate remotely through the telephone system...
 
well, if I could keep my old xp running i would consider this cheap rebuild proposed on the ebuyer forms by a couple of helpful guys...



2nd Edit Here's a build if you used your hard drive and your new power supply - you'd just need to choose a case.

1x #281424: Intel Celeron G530 2.40GHz Socket 1155 2MB L3 Cache Retail Boxed Processor - £32.54
1x #344804: MSI H61M-P22 (B3) Socket 1155 VGA DVI-D 8 Channel Audio mATX Motherboard - £40.07
1x #178943: Corsair 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 1333MHz Memory Kit Unbuffered CL9 - £19.00
1x #251743: LiteOn IHAS122-18 22x DVD±RW DL & RAM SATA Optical Drive - OEM Black - £13.98
Total: £105.59

Then another suggestion...

Is that the dual core celeron or the single core one? (there's a single core one that's not very good) if you can take an extra £15ish on the budget I'd swap to the pentium g620 http://www.ebuyer.com/264713-intel-p...or-bx80623g620


I didnt think it was worth it if I had to get a new os, but if i can keep me old xp I would go for it.

Its only to tide me over till autumn ish:thinking:

wojerfink:)
 
arad85 said:
And there you have the profile of people who use the PC minimally. Yup.. Ubuntu works fine when you're on piste.......
Click to expand...

Most of the guys/girls in my development teams use either ubuntu or osx, not many of them are staying on piste :thumbs: And there are of course other flavours to anyones liking.

I'm surprised those you are using XP on a 1155 surely you must stay on the bunny hill :p :exit:
 
After returning to Windows from Ubuntu, I thought i'd actually give Mint a try as I read how 'user friendly' it was. I'm relatively ok with Ubuntu, so Mint wasn't really a concern.

After 2 days of everything working, I was starting to get worried. Then I found a somewhat common problem with Mint, it freezes everytime I try and play a video file(using Mplayer, VLC, totem, etc). I'm guessing it's something to do with Intel HD2000. I didn't even bother trying to fix it, and there are no answers online for the others who have this problem.

Went back to my Windows 7 harddrive and everything is happy. I would love to love an Ubuntu/Mint OS, but everytime I try it just goes wrong, even with the basics.
 
dejongj said:
Most of the guys/girls in my development teams use either ubuntu or osx, not many of them are staying on piste :thumbs: And there are of course other flavours to anyones liking.
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People get very defensive about Linux - it's free so it has the moral high ground in terms of software.

The problem with Unbuntu is that it's effectively a wavefront development. If it's really well managed, it can be done. Ubuntu isn't well done. Sure it's "user friendly" in that it has a nice interface (although I didn't like Unity when I tried it after installing 11.10) but it has problems. Specifically, newer hardware tends to be less well supported, manufacturers tend to have a lower priority to Linux drivers - and the nether regions (for example the hibernate sequence) is down to pot luck as to whether your driver set works well enough to enable it. I'm on some mailing lists where people have had to debug hibernation issues and you get comments like "yes, hibernate works, but you have to unload the driver before it will hibernate properly and then reload it on the resume". That's what I call off piste ;)

Precisely because there is so much choice, it becomes impossible to test it properly. As I said, I tried Unity when I installed 11.10. I didn't like it but the main reason for the box was as an embedded xbmc player. Downloaded xbmc, installed it, played a video and there was screen tearing. 10 minutes googling and it's a known problem - Unity window manager (more precisely compiz which it is the underlying WM) causes tearing on video playback. Known bug, been there for ages, but presumably the people who develop compiz don't do much video replay so it hasn't had much attention. The solution - switch to another window manager! And should you ever mention to a developer that perhaps this was an important bug, you typically get the "patches are always welcome" style response i.e. if you want to fix it, be my guest and let us know how you've fixed it when you have done. Or to put it another way, you get what you pay for ;)

I've only scratched the surface of the UI as most of the stuff I do with Linux/Unix here is command line or running a complete environment where someone else has tested things - e.g. xbmc. There, it works beautifully (although you might have more massaging to do to really get it to work) but you will probably need to get closer to the metal to do it. Every time I do use the windowing interface, I find more bugs than I'm happy with so end up dissatisfied with the experience/

If people really want to use Linux, I'd actually suggest a distribution which changes less frequently than ubuntu. In fact, I'd probably suggest using a BSD variant rather than Linux. My experience there has been much more positive....
 
I'm not certain why you immediately wave the defensive flag, can't we have a normal conversation and exchange experiences or is anything that isn't like your experience being defensive?

It think what you've highlighted is definitely my experience of a few revisions ago regarding hardware compatibility. Most people that I know are running theirs on say the more business versions of laptop hardware from the likes of Dell or Lenovo on reference Intel hardware. The only chap who had no end of problems used a cheap asus laptop with amd processor/chipset. Likewise for my inlaws they use a Lenovo laptop and honestly no problems with hibrination/graphics/ui etc.

Thanks for clarifying what you mean by off piste, I would have called that tinkering personally. I took off piste more along the lines of the primary function, but a lot more than office/web/photos such as 3D development test, driver development test, embedded software simulation, penetration testing, IL5 data sharing and development. You know that kind of simple everyday stuff ;) but still aligned with its primary function. Just like off piste skiing is still skiing...

Me I prefer OSX :p
 
I have never had a problem transferring the same OEM XP form one machine to another. Just when through the installation and each time registered it as I did with the first machine.

I suppose the support for XP will eventually be withdrawn and I'll have to change, but it will be a sad day. XP is, for me, rock solid; it has never crashed.

Dave
 
arad85 said:
People get very defensive about Linux - it's free so it has the moral high ground in terms of software.

The problem with Unbuntu is that it's effectively a wavefront development. If it's really well managed, it can be done. Ubuntu isn't well done. Sure it's "user friendly" in that it has a nice interface (although I didn't like Unity when I tried it after installing 11.10) but it has problems. Specifically, newer hardware tends to be less well supported, manufacturers tend to have a lower priority to Linux drivers - and the nether regions (for example the hibernate sequence) is down to pot luck as to whether your driver set works well enough to enable it. I'm on some mailing lists where people have had to debug hibernation issues and you get comments like "yes, hibernate works, but you have to unload the driver before it will hibernate properly and then reload it on the resume". That's what I call off piste ;)

Precisely because there is so much choice, it becomes impossible to test it properly. As I said, I tried Unity when I installed 11.10. I didn't like it but the main reason for the box was as an embedded xbmc player. Downloaded xbmc, installed it, played a video and there was screen tearing. 10 minutes googling and it's a known problem - Unity window manager (more precisely compiz which it is the underlying WM) causes tearing on video playback. Known bug, been there for ages, but presumably the people who develop compiz don't do much video replay so it hasn't had much attention. The solution - switch to another window manager! And should you ever mention to a developer that perhaps this was an important bug, you typically get the "patches are always welcome" style response i.e. if you want to fix it, be my guest and let us know how you've fixed it when you have done. Or to put it another way, you get what you pay for ;)

I've only scratched the surface of the UI as most of the stuff I do with Linux/Unix here is command line or running a complete environment where someone else has tested things - e.g. xbmc. There, it works beautifully (although you might have more massaging to do to really get it to work) but you will probably need to get closer to the metal to do it. Every time I do use the windowing interface, I find more bugs than I'm happy with so end up dissatisfied with the experience/

If people really want to use Linux, I'd actually suggest a distribution which changes less frequently than ubuntu. In fact, I'd probably suggest using a BSD variant rather than Linux. My experience there has been much more positive....
Click to expand...

I used to know a guy on a forum who used slackware for that reason. It was allowed to cool a little before being served whereas ubuntu and similar is always a hot cake fresh out of the oven.
 
dejongj said:
I'm not certain why you immediately wave the defensive flag, can't we have a normal conversation and exchange experiences or is anything that isn't like your experience being defensive?
Click to expand...
No, but my experience is that if you find someone who is a Linux user, they become immediately blinkered and you can't have a sensible conversation about the deficiencies of the system - because they do exist.

dejongj said:
It think what you've highlighted is definitely my experience of a few revisions ago regarding hardware compatibility.
Click to expand...
The Ubuntu 11.10 (so current Ubuntu release) install was on a modern Shuttle Atom/ION2 fanless system.

dejongj said:
Most people that I know are running theirs on say the more business versions of laptop hardware from the likes of Dell or Lenovo on reference Intel hardware. The only chap who had no end of problems used a cheap asus laptop with amd processor/chipset. Likewise for my inlaws they use a Lenovo laptop and honestly no problems with hibrination/graphics/ui etc.
Click to expand...
But the manufacturers of those devices don't provide the drivers, so you are still down to the hardware chip manufacturers support of Linux. Some support it well, some don't. Also, as the kernel moves forward, you have to provide ongoing support - this just doesn't exist in OS-X or Windows as the driver model is fairly fixed.

dejongj said:
Thanks for clarifying what you mean by off piste, I would have called that tinkering personally.
Click to expand...
Getting a system to hibernate properly or play video is seen as tinkering is it?
dejongj said:
I took off piste more along the lines of the primary function, but a lot more than office/web/photos such as 3D development test, driver development test, embedded software simulation, penetration testing, IL5 data sharing and development. You know that kind of simple everyday stuff ;) but still aligned with its primary function. Just like off piste skiing is still skiing...
Click to expand...
No, apart from driver development (which we do too ;)) those are just different uses of the same core software components. Perhaps different grades of run, but still on-piste ;)

dejongj said:
Me I prefer OSX :p
Click to expand...
So a BSD based Unix kernel then ;) I have to say I quite like FreeBSD and would probably use that if I didn't need to run Windows programs (I'm not going to jump through hoops to use office - that's a case of the tail wagging the dog).
 
I found XP64bit the best and most stable of all the OS I had used from Win98.

However, I must admit, Win7 64bit is so much better, after using it for the last few months.

Everything just happens so quickly and easily, only the file/folder thingie was a wee bit of a pain after XP.
 
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arad85 said:
The Ubuntu 11.10 (so current Ubuntu release) install was on a modern Shuttle Atom/ION2 fanless system.
Click to expand...
Yep, ION2 chipset I am not surprised. Runs fine on Atom/Intel on the several netbooks we have, including intel graphics. But granted not as straight forward as a windows installation, but once working very responsive :)

arad85 said:
But the manufacturers of those devices don't provide the drivers, so you are still down to the hardware chip manufacturers support of Linux. Some support it well, some don't. Also, as the kernel moves forward, you have to provide ongoing support - this just doesn't exist in OS-X or Windows as the driver model is fairly fixed.
Click to expand...
Just as an example, many go further than just providing drivers, they provide certification ;) Just like Apple does...
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/detail.page?LegacyDocID=MIGR-48NT8D

arad85 said:
Getting a system to hibernate properly or play video is seen as tinkering is it?
Click to expand...
No but saying that it works and then upon inspection realising that it works by unloading drivers, that is what I call tinkering ;) You referred to it as off-piste.

arad85 said:
So a BSD based Unix kernel then ;) I have to say I quite like FreeBSD and would probably use that if I didn't need to run Windows programs (I'm not going to jump through hoops to use office - that's a case of the tail wagging the dog).
Click to expand...
Yes in a long distant fork, but as you said the kernel is not the problem, not even with Linux. In my case it is actually OS X that makes it good, I couldn't care less about what kernel it has...I'm a user, not a clu :thumbs:
 
dejongj said:
Yep, ION2 chipset I am not surprised. Runs fine on Atom/Intel on the several netbooks we have, including intel graphics. But granted not as straight forward as a windows installation, but once working very responsive :)
Click to expand...
No, the problem wasn't the ION2 chipset, the problem of tearing is common across a number of devices. I just couldn't be bothered debugging what the suspend problem was and the Realtek chipset has got really flaky drivers - and they're from Realtek themselves!!


dejongj said:
Just as an example, many go further than just providing drivers, they provide certification ;) Just like Apple does...
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/detail.page?LegacyDocID=MIGR-48NT8D
Click to expand...
Which only serves to prove my point as none of the certified systems are Ubuntu ;)

dejongj said:
No but saying that it works and then upon inspection realising that it works by unloading drivers, that is what I call tinkering ;) You referred to it as off-piste.
Click to expand...
That was someone getting his laptop to suspend. What I'm saying is that unless you're lucky, you'll be tinkering at some point.... That has been my experience. I have 4 Unix systems here and will keep them Unix.

dejongj said:
Yes in a long distant fork, but as you said the kernel is not the problem, not even with Linux. In my case it is actually OS X that makes it good, I couldn't care less about what kernel it has...I'm a user, not a clu :thumbs:
Click to expand...
I personally don't like the Mac interface. It is too centred around having a single app open at once (the menu bar at the top of the screen). That alone kills it for me. And as to command lines - most of the interfacing I do with Linux/Unix is through the command line. They appear as completely embedded systems connected to TVs here and the fileserver running PC-BSD is normally used in a headless mode.

You see what you're doing here don't you? This is about the third post you've responded to me discussing why Ubuntu (as that's the release we're talking about here) is perfect. Your posts come across as "it works alright here and for everyone I know, you're tinkering or you have chosen your hardware wrong and that's not what most do, so it's your fault". To me, that's coming across as you being defensive and unable to discuss the issues with it ;)

IMHO, Ubuntu is like being on a constantly changing beta wavefront. If you start to ride it, you will, at some point, have issues with it. If you're OK with that, then jump on, but it isn't the panacea some make it out to be.
 
arad85 said:
You see what you're doing here don't you? This is about the third post you've responded to me discussing why Ubuntu (as that's the release we're talking about here) is perfect. Your posts come across as "it works alright here and for everyone I know, you're tinkering or you have chosen your hardware wrong and that's not what most do, so it's your fault". To me, that's coming across as you being defensive and unable to discuss the issues with it ;)
Click to expand...

You know what arad, I think you have more serious issues. This is the second time you are using that card. First time was after the first post I made in this thread. Why are you so intend on making this personal, I'm trying to have a normal rational discussion....If someone get labelled by you as defensive when they relay a different experience in the first post, then what is the point in having a conversation in the first place. I thought you get over it, but apparently you just can't let it go.

I really couldn't care less what anyone else is using, I'm merely relaying that one can have positive experiences as well. I'm very familiar, and have stated those as well regarding incompatibilities.

And yes now I am defensive but not of Linux, but of your nasty habit to character assassinate, it is not a nice treat.

BTW I guess you want to look again on that link to Lenovo, official certified on several flavours on Ubuntu including 11.10 :thumbs:
 
And at that point, I'm going to leave it - we're not going to end up in a good place if this carries on.

Having said that, I did miss the Ubuntu column - don't know how that happened :shrug:
 
I've been using ubuntu for 5 years for my own personal computers (XP/Win7 on work laptop)

It really does seem to bring some life back into the older hardware, runs nice and smooth and does not grind to a halt in a few weeks like a windows PC, you do not have to worry about viruses and practically everything is open source. Ideal for the kids who just want a browser and you've got open office again free for their homework etc etc.

I've got a 2 year old netbook here with 1GB ram and just a 8GB SSD for the os, got a couple of 250GB USB 2.5 drives plugged into the USB and I've NFS shared them and can stream movies/music/photos around the house so a bit like a NAS box.

Theres loads of support out there for ubuntu and they have regular 6 months releases, currently at 11.10 but looks like 12.04 LTS (Long Term Support...every 2 years) will be with us shortly.

Also soon there will be a Ubuntu for Andriod.....looks intersting
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
 
I'st we got the Calculator, I paid 45 quid for my first one 38 years ago,(I'm 60 on 28th) not that long after, they were free with petrol.

My first comp... can't remember... 15 years ago? millenium?
fast forward to windows xp.
The comp was a must have for your business and general knowledge base. XP was tailored perfectly for just that one specialisation, The PC home and business comp.

Fast forward to windows 8.
desktops, laptops, smart phones, fart phones, dogs bones, dogs [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], tablets, hairnets, maisonetes, hearing aids, lemonades...:shrug:

OS free with petrol.... how, long will it be..?

But, more important, how good (for each type of user) dose it have to be?

Will it will be the best that we end up getting free?
 
Steve T said:
I'st we got the Calculator, I paid 45 quid for my first one 38 years ago,(I'm 60 on 28th) not that long after, they were free with petrol.

My first comp... can't remember... 15 years ago? millenium?
fast forward to windows xp.
The comp was a must have for your business and general knowledge base. XP was tailored perfectly for just that one specialisation, The PC home and business comp.

Fast forward to windows 8.
desktops, laptops, smart phones, fart phones, dogs bones, dogs [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], tablets, hairnets, maisonetes, hearing aids, lemonades...:shrug:

OS free with petrol.... how, long will it be..?

But, more important, how good (for each type of user) dose it have to be?

Will it will be the best that we end up getting free?
Click to expand...

But that's the natural progression of an os, even apple are making their desktop and mobile os more and more similar.
 
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