One stop digital - is this legal?

ziggy© · 2 May 2012

I've been reading up on their returns policy shown here http://www.onestop-digital.com/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=8

In the answer to question 7, they say that "they cannot accept your request to return the product if you accept delivery"

I think the law allows you to return an item if you change your mind within 7 days provided the item is unopened.

I know they are a Hong Kong company but are they not required to apply local laws if they are operating here?

London Headshots · 2 May 2012

No, I think they are required to apply laws local to them.

Musicman · 2 May 2012

Yep.

UK Distance Selling Regulations (The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000) only apply to UK companies (which originated as a 1997 EU directive applicable to the entire EU).

The UK handed Hong Kong back to the PRC in 1997, not that UK law was applicable there even before that.

e2a: stuff like this is what your UK prices from UK retailers help pay for. Sorry.

thekwango · 2 May 2012

yup as per above, the rules only cover UK based companies. a friend had a similar problem a while back trying to return electrical goods to some ropey website he's bought them from. one of the main reasons i always try to buy from UK sites where possible

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

I can't see anything in the law that says it applies only to UK based companies. My understanding was that the rules apply to any business selling to consumers in the UK, because the contract is formed here.

I apreciate that it'd be difficult to enforce, but never the less cant see anything in the linked regulation to clarify the point.

Alastair · 3 May 2012

Simple sanity check question.. Why would UK trading laws apply to a non-UK based business?

When people buy from OSD they are doing so to avoid paying UK VAT.. so it's a bit of a cheek to expect to get the benefit of UK trading laws at the same time.

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

Sorry if I appear insane Alistair.

UK trading laws may apply to a non-UK based business because they are designed to protect UK consumers as widely as possible, and because the contract may be formed in the UK. My business can sell in, for example, the USA, but would be subject to American law. It's not (always) where you are based that determines the jurisdiction, it's where you do business; i.e. where the contract is formed.

Yes there are ways around it, and it may well be that by buying from OSD you are in fact buying in Hong Kong just as surely as you would be if you were on holiday there (I suspect that's true), but my question was about clarification of the regulations, not OSD specifically; Musicman posted a link to the regs as if that answered the question once and for all, but because the regulations DON'T exclude businesses selling into the UK from overseas, it actually muddies the waters rather than clarifying them.

VAT is a whole different set of regulations. You might be right, and OSD and their kind MAY be outside of UK regulations for distance selling and/or VAT, but so far I've only seen statements to that effect, not evidence.

Seeking clarification is not a mark of insanity.

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

From Direct.gov:

"If you buy something in the UK and something goes wrong with it, you usually have the right to a repair, replacement or refund. These are known as your consumer rights.

If you buy an item abroad in person, eg on holiday, your consumer rights will depend on the law of the country you are in.

If you buy goods online, UK law is usually applied unless the trader states they are trading from another country. The trader should say which country's law applies on their website or in any contracts they send."

I'd be surprised if OSD's terms don't say that HK laws apply, but I think the above confirms that I'm not insane, and that the other advise in this thread is not accurate/complete; the regulations do NOT apply only to UK or even EU based companies.

hollis_f · 3 May 2012

Southdowns said:
I'd be surprised if OSD's terms don't say that HK laws apply

All of the HK-based companies have a clause in their T&Cs saying that HK law applies and that if you want to take legal action then you'll need to do so in the HK courts.

It's the main reason I would never buy anything expensive from them. One day they will decide to pull the plug and leave all their customers high and dry

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

As it happens I'm dealing with their customer support at the moment, over an issue with a cheap Bluetooth keyboard. They are behaving impeccably so far, but I agree it'd be dangerous to spend a lot with them.

Alastair · 3 May 2012

Southdowns said:
Sorry if I appear insane Alistair.

Oops, my bad.. it wasn't meant in that way. The dangers of using on-line phrases used IRL with a certain intonation of voice. What I meant was, say your question out load and does it make sense when you chop it back to the shortest way of expressing it.

There are some rare exceptions (eg. libel tourism).. but in general a sovereign government is going to have a great deal of trouble trying to enforce its own laws on legal entities that are based entirely in the jurisdiction of other sovereign governments.

BTW, I am a happy OSD customer.. used them once for a lightmeter with no problems. Reports on this and other forums suggest that their returns policy for faulty goods is excellent. The only significant thing that DSR gives you that you don't get from OSD is the "I don't want it" reason for return.

LCPete · 3 May 2012

Alastair said:
Simple sanity check question.. Why would UK trading laws apply to a non-UK based business?

When people buy from OSD they are doing so to avoid paying UK VAT.. so it's a bit of a cheek to expect to get the benefit of UK trading laws at the same time.

Agree I have to admit that I've bought a lot of my gear from them at one time their price for the Tamron 17-50 was the same as the going rate second hand , but accept that I wont get the same protection as buying in the UK

As far as I know tho that if I use my credit card and the item never arrives I,m covered anyway

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

That's OK Alistair, no problem

I did acknowledge in my original post that enforcement would be difficult, but the fact is that the DSR's DO apply to foreign web sites unless they say otherwise, contrary to what people were advising. If an overseas site doesn't say which laws apply, they are effectively setting up shop here, so why wouldn't they be subject to our laws?

None of that necessarily changes the advice to be more cautious when dealing with an overseas company, but a good start toward benefitting from your consumer rights is to understand exactly what they are. Too many times I've seen some snotty nosed oik in, lets call them "Slurrys", try to tell someone they can't return a dishwasher because it's more than 30 days old, to sit back and let incorrect info go unchallenged

Alastair · 3 May 2012

I can't see how the DSR could be said to apply unless it's otherwise stated, as far as I am aware the only regionalistion on the OSD website is the pricing in Sterling. Although if you have your own website and you sell items or services online, it does make sense to clarify the relevant jurisdiction and laws.

But.. if you want to see some people getting all worked up about the DSR, try Googling for "distance selling regulations" and "Etsy"..

Southdowns · 3 May 2012

It's said to apply because it does apply; that's the law, and no amount of thinking it shouldn't be logically will change that!!! I think you're getting mixed up between what the law is and what is enforceable, which in turn may depend on how much it's worth to the consumer, and on what the relationship is like between the country in question and the UK.

It has nothing to do with regionalisation, it has to do with where they'll ship to and accept payment from.

The OP's question, which he even clarified in the title, was "is this legal", and he was told he hadn't got a leg to stand on because the law does not apply to companies based outside the UK. That is simply WRONG, it does, and he might have, though he needed to check further to see if the company in question had excluded themselves from it.

OK, so in this case in practice the regulations may as well not apply, because OSD have been clever enough to cover the point, but the practical danger is that the next person to read this thread may think that it's true for ALL overseas companies, as incorrectly advised, and not take up his rights where they might apply and be enforceable.

In this country we have some of the best consumer protection laws in the world. Why would anyone other than a dishonest trader want that to be diluted by advising people that they don't have rights that they do have?

ianjmatt · 3 May 2012

Well, in answer to the OP. Yes it is legal if OSD is operating under a law other than the UK DSR, which is looks like they are. Simple.

iced_jacob · 3 May 2012

Another thing to consider with OSD is that they say they will refund any taxes you need to pay whan you receive the item. The thing is if customs don't ask you to pay then you run the risk of being stopped anytime you return to the UK from a trip, they find that on you and they ask you to pay the tax at that time...and I don't think OSD would agree to pay that 2-3 years after the purchase...

LCPete · 3 May 2012

iced_jacob said:
Another thing to consider with OSD is that they say they will refund any taxes you need to pay whan you receive the item. The thing is if customs don't ask you to pay then you run the risk of being stopped anytime you return to the UK from a trip, they find that on you and they ask you to pay the tax at that time...and I don't think OSD would agree to pay that 2-3 years after the purchase...

good point , how would they know tho?

Alastair · 3 May 2012

iced_jacob said:
Another thing to consider with OSD is that they say they will refund any taxes you need to pay whan you receive the item. The thing is if customs don't ask you to pay then you run the risk of being stopped anytime you return to the UK from a trip, they find that on you and they ask you to pay the tax at that time...and I don't think OSD would agree to pay that 2-3 years after the purchase...

But you don't carry with you the VAT receipt for your 2 year old camera bought in the UK when you travel abroad, do you?

ziggy© · 3 May 2012

LCPete said:
good point , how would they know tho?

I don't think they would otherwise people would have had to carry receipts for every electronic item they take with them on holiday.

Dave * · 3 May 2012

iced_jacob said:
Another thing to consider with OSD is that they say they will refund any taxes you need to pay whan you receive the item. The thing is if customs don't ask you to pay then you run the risk of being stopped anytime you return to the UK from a trip, they find that on you and they ask you to pay the tax at that time...and I don't think OSD would agree to pay that 2-3 years after the purchase...

I think the only way that could happen would be if you were to approach a customs officer and decide to confess that you bought the item 2 years prior and didn't pay duty/tax.

Otherwise, so unlikely, you are more likely to win the lottery.

Musicman · 3 May 2012

ziggy©;4625558 said:
I don't think they would otherwise people would have had to carry receipts for every electronic item they take with them on holiday.

It can happen.

A well known computer company that my brother was working for a few years ago required their staff to carry photocopies of receipts for their computer equipment when they left the UK after they'd had laptops confiscated by customs on their return to the UK until the accounts dept could provide adequate evidence that they'd been purchased in the UK.

Dave * · 3 May 2012

Musicman said:
It can happen.

A well known computer company that my brother was working for a few years ago required their staff to carry photocopies of receipts for their computer equipment when they left the UK after they'd had laptops confiscated by customs on their return to the UK until the accounts dept could provide adequate evidence that they'd been purchased in the UK.

Something strange with them, I travel quite frequently with a laptop, (sometimes a NetBook as well), an iPad, iPhone, second phone, compact camera, a 4/3rds camera with 3 lenses, and a DSLR with 3 lenses. I have been in and out of most of the continents (and bags searched a few times on arrival).

I have never had a comment about my gadgets, not even when I had a 450d that was US sourced with XSi on the front. I must just be lucky.

Musicman · 3 May 2012

Right, let's quote the States of Jersey from their Guide for Businesses on The Distance Selling (Jersey) Law 2007.

2.1 The Law follows the essential consumer protection standards within European Council Directive (97/7/EC) 3 and for most goods and
services provide additional rights to consumers buying at a distance to encourage confidence in this method of buying.

...

Where does the Law apply?
(Jurisdiction)

2.6 One aim of the Directive is to ensure that consumers enjoy the same minimum level of protection no matter where a supplier is based in the EU. In recognition that this requirement did not extend to Jersey, the States of Jersey approved the Distance Selling (Jersey) Law 2007, to give consumers this vital protection when “doing business with Jersey”.

[emphasis added]

N.B. Jersey is not a member state of the EU. Prior to the introduction of this law by the Jersey legislature, there was no DSR protection for UK customers buying goods from Jersey.

grum · 4 May 2012

Another thing to consider with OSD is that they say they will refund any taxes you need to pay whan you receive the item. The thing is if customs don't ask you to pay then you run the risk of being stopped anytime you return to the UK from a trip, they find that on you and they ask you to pay the tax at that time...and I don't think OSD would agree to pay that 2-3 years after the purchase...

On a semi related question - does anyone know if there is a problem with using receipts from OSD to claim as a business expense to offset against tax? Never really thought about it before but could this be a problem if you haven't paid VAT on it?

Musicman · 4 May 2012

If HMRC audit you and find it I could foresee it being an issue, but I'm not a tax expert.

ianjmatt · 4 May 2012

grum said:
On a semi related question - does anyone know if there is a problem with using receipts from OSD to claim as a business expense to offset against tax? Never really thought about it before but could this be a problem if you haven't paid VAT on it?

As long as it is a legitimate expense you should be ok. But you couldn't claim any VAT back at all. Just the same as buying from someone who isn't VAT registered here.

Alastair · 4 May 2012

grum said:
On a semi related question - does anyone know if there is a problem with using receipts from OSD to claim as a business expense to offset against tax? Never really thought about it before but could this be a problem if you haven't paid VAT on it?

I almost certain HMRC would expect you to volunteer the VAT and duty due on the imported goods. The HMRC website is pretty good at answering questions like this.

ianjmatt · 4 May 2012

Alastair said:
I almost certain HMRC would expect you to volunteer the VAT and duty due on the imported goods. The HMRC website is pretty good at answering questions like this.

I have bought items in the US on business trips and put the expense through my books (and had them audited on a HMRC random check). They didn't raise the issue of VAT or import duty on them at all.

Southdowns · 4 May 2012

Musicman said:
N.B. Jersey is not a member state of the EU. Prior to the introduction of this law by the Jersey legislature, there was no DSR protection for UK customers buying goods from Jersey.

Yes there was!

If you bought in the UK (meaning you paid from the UK and they shipped to the UK), from a Jersey based trader, and the company selling to you didn't say that Jersey law applied, then UK law did.

Again, you're getting confused between law and enforceability. Jersey added this law so that consumers in the EU could feel safe trading with Jersey, because now companies couldn't escape DSR's by stating in their terms that Jersey law applied. It made it that a UK consumer could enforce their rights, because there was no longer any escape, but never the less the UK's DSR laws applied to transactions with Jersey companies before that, if they'd failed to declare that Jersey law applied.

Simple; UK law applies to ALL transactions done in the UK, even those done over the web, regardless of whether or not you stand a snowball in hells chance of actually enforcing that FACT. The only way a company can demonstrate to a UK court that a UK web transaction was NOT done in the UK is by showing that they told the consumer that up front, which if you think about it is only fair.

NOT the same as enforceability. Jersey's decision was a move to make DSR more easily enforceable for people buying from the EU ("if you can't enforce it through your native courts, enforce it through ours"), so that people would continue to buy and Jersey's economy would not be harmed.

grum · 4 May 2012

ianjmatt said:
As long as it is a legitimate expense you should be ok. But you couldn't claim any VAT back at all. Just the same as buying from someone who isn't VAT registered here.

Yeah it is a legitimate expense and I'm not talking about claiming back VAT as I'm not registered for it.

Alastair said:
I almost certain HMRC would expect you to volunteer the VAT and duty due on the imported goods. The HMRC website is pretty good at answering questions like this.

ianjmatt said:
I have bought items in the US on business trips and put the expense through my books (and had them audited on a HMRC random check). They didn't raise the issue of VAT or import duty on them at all.

OK ta.