One for the sceptics .......

[Phil-D]

I'll try keep this as brief as I can.

I know a chap who's selling a motorcycle, its fairly priced and he's got it for sale on a motorcycle forum.

He's had a chap say he'll buy it (he's seen loads of photos and a video of the bike) at asking but he lives in Bristol, the bike is up north. They've had 3 telephone conversations, the chap seems genuine and well educated, they've exchanged a few emails, loads of texts, names and address' ect.

The chap that's buying it is offering to pay the full amount (£2500) by bank transfer and has said he'll get a motorcycle delivery firm to collect around the first week in January, a date has been provisionally arranged.

All seems well so far, although I know I wouldn't part with 2500 without first seeing what I'm buying, but I suppose every ones different.

Now the bit that starts to arouse caution, the buyer is asking for the sellers bank details , firstly it was to pay a deposit, seller said not to worry, just paid full amount 3 days before collection. The buyer then again, asked for the sellers bank details, this time saying it would be easier to set up the transfer well in advance

Now the sellers also been asked to scan and email a copy of the V5 (logbook) so he has proof the seller actually owns the bike and its where the seller says it is ..............still following all this!

Google says that nothing can be done with any of the details he's asking for, be it log book or bank details, but he seems so insistent.

So what do any of you well educated, computer literate, sceptics on here think?

Is there a scam I can't see? Am I missing something? or am I just being overly cautious?...... oops sorry,not me........ I mean my mate, the seller

Cheers, Phil

P.S the forum is nothing like the classifieds here, all the correspondence have been done through P.M, the buyers been a member 18 months but only made a handful of posts, although the posts do seem genuine

 

[simon ess]

Run a mile.

I've heard of scenarios like this before. A quick google of bank draft scams gives loads of examples.

Here's one.

http://www.mtvan.com/forum/new-scam-for-buying-vehicle-on-auto-trader

Personally, I would want to meet the buyer and be paid cash.

 

[Phil-D]

Run a mile.

I've heard of scenarios like this before. A quick google of bank draft scams gives loads of examples.

Here's one.

http://www.mtvan.com/forum/new-scam-for-buying-vehicle-on-auto-trader

Personally, I would want to meet the buyer and be paid cash.

Yes, if it was anything other than a bank transfer I'd be more concerned, but, from what I can gather, a bank transfer can't be reversed

 

[simon ess]

Assuming it's not a forgery of course.

 

[-Rob-]

I don't see the problem with handing over your.......I mean your mate's bank details and sending him a photo of the V5 document. Don't send a really good scan of the V5 just in case, just something good enough to prove you've got it.

Then when it comes to the guy collecting the bike just make sure you've......I mean your mate has the money fully cleared in his account.

 

[u8myufo]

Are you really that bored to be concerned over somebody else`s transactions,get a life is what I think.

 

[Phil-D]

Assuming it's not a forgery of course.

I agree, but if its a forged account and he pays in full 3 days before collection date, won't it be detected before the bikes collected.

I'm not disagreeing with what your saying Simon I'm just not sure how its a scam

 

[u8myufo]

Just noticed the wink so I will change my answer

If you need to ask the question.

 

[Phil-D]

I don't see the problem with handing over your.......I mean your mate's bank details and sending him a photo of the V5 document. Don't send a really good scan of the V5 just in case, just something good enough to prove you've got it.

Then when it comes to the guy collecting the bike just make sure you've......I mean your mate has the money fully cleared in his account.

Rob, this is how I see it, but I just can't help but think I was missing something

Are you really that bored to be concerned over somebody else`s transactions,get a life is what I think.

Me and this chap might be very close for all you know!

 

[AJQS]

If you were about to hand over 2 grand to a complete stranger without being able to see in person, wouldn't you want to know all was present & correct before sending your money into the ether?

I bought my current car without seeing it in person on account of it being rare than a gold plated hen's tooth, basically like your transaction. (But after paying deposit I paid the balance to the delivery driver in cash as it was being delivered by the dealer)

 

[rpsmith79]

For the sake of some petrol/diesel money or a train fair, i can't see why the supposed buyer wouldn't want to either view it in person first, or come and collect it himself and pay cash

Seems fishy to me............ i know what i would be doing in the circumstances, and that would be to politely decline his offer

 

[Phil-D]

If you were about to hand over 2 grand to a complete stranger without being able to see in person, wouldn't you want to know all was present & correct before sending your money into the ether?

I bought my current car without seeing it in person on account of it being rare than a gold plated hen's tooth, basically like your transaction. (But after paying deposit I paid the balance to the delivery driver in cash as it was being delivered by the dealer)

Alan, I agree, I would want to know everything was in order I'm not saying he is asking for anything out of the ordinary for someone who's prepared to do exactly that, hand over 2500 to a stranger ..................I just keep thinking I'm missing sumot :banghead:

 

[Phil-D]

For the sake of some petrol/diesel money or a train fair, i can't see why the supposed buyer wouldn't want to either view it in person first, or come and collect it himself and pay cash

Seems fishy to me............ i know what i would be doing in the circumstances, and that would be to politely decline his offer

To me too

One thing I'm not is gullible, I thought exactly the same, but, so far, there's absolutely no reason to think the chaps not genuine

 

[Tringa]

As long as your mate sees the money in his account before he hands over the bike, I can't see a problem. Your mate should give the buyer a reference (eg. part of the bike's reg number) to use with the bank transfer to make it readily identifiable.
For the copy of the V5 it wouldn't be too difficult to photograph it and combine it with another photo saying something like 'Photographic copy for reference only'


Dave

 

[Phil-D]

As long as your mate sees the money in his account before he hands over the bike, I can't see a problem. Your mate should give the buyer a reference (eg. part of the bike's reg number) to use with the bank transfer to make it readily identifiable.
For the copy of the V5 it wouldn't be too difficult to photograph it and combine it with another photo saying something like 'Photographic copy for reference only'


Dave

I can't see a problem either Dave, but as Rich said above........

If you need to ask the question.

And I felt I did need to ask

According to Google, even with a scan of the V5, he can't do anything with the details on it

 

[Nod]

Well, you (sorry, your mate! ) has the buyer's telephone number (landline, I hope?) and address. If the 2 match with the directory entry and his name, chances are he is who he says he is and the deal's kosher (or halal...) Personally, I'd want to see what I was forking out 2 1/2 grand on but if the bike's uncommon, your(mate')s could well be the only one around for sale hence the long distance deal. One thing I would do is to mark several key components with UV marker so the buyer can't swap parts on a possible ringer for good ones on yours and claim the bike you sent up had a dented tank, rusty mudguards, worn disks, missing side panels etc. Not being paranoid, just covering asses!

 

[big soft moose]

With a scan of the V5C he'll have the Vin so he'd be able to submit a V62 to get a V5C reissued in his name - he'd also be able to clone the vin plate onto a stolen bike ... personally irt'd be a cold day in hell before i sent a stranger a scan of my V5.

personally i'd tell him that its exchange in person or no deal

 

[Phil-D]

Well, you (sorry, your mate! ) has the buyer's telephone number (landline, I hope?) and address. If the 2 match with the directory entry and his name, chances are he is who he says he is and the deal's kosher (or halal...) Personally, I'd want to see what I was forking out 2 1/2 grand on but if the bike's uncommon, your(mate')s could well be the only one around for sale hence the long distance deal. One thing I would do is to mark several key components with UV marker so the buyer can't swap parts on a possible ringer for good ones on yours and claim the bike you sent up had a dented tank, rusty mudguards, worn disks, missing side panels etc. Not being paranoid, just covering asses!

No, not halal

Its is a little different to the other models out there, its a US import with a very low mileage, but I suppose there's nothing about the bike that couldn't be replicated.

I'd already thought of covering the condition before collecting with photos, but apparently, there's a form the delivery firm and seller (that's me btw ) complete and agree on before they take it away, so condition is confirmed.

I'd thought about landline, but he could be ex-directory, we are, but I'll ask him

With a scan of the V5C he'll have the Vin so he'd be able to submit a V62 to get a V5C reissued in his name - he'd also be able to clone the vin plate onto a stolen bike ... personally irt'd be a cold day in hell before i sent a stranger a scan of my V5.

personally i'd tell him that its exchange in person or no deal

In the old days maybe, but they won't issue a V5 anymore unless you are already the registered keeper and its been lost, damaged, stolen ect or you fill in a V62 application form and send the V5C/2 (new keepers green slip) with it, which he won't have

 

[big soft moose]

nope you can submit a V62 stating that you have acquired the vehicle but the previous keeper didnt give you the V5C/2 - so long as you have the VIN number (which under usual circumstances you could only have got from the V5 or the vehicle) this won't be a problem.

 

[Phil-D]

nope you can submit a V62 stating that you have acquired the vehicle but the previous keeper didnt give you the V5C/2 - so long as you have the VIN number (which under usual circumstances you could only have got from the V5 or the vehicle) this won't be a problem.

I'm going to have to disagree, applying for log books isn't as easy as it use to be, but please lets not get into that

.........the other option would be to clone out/cover up vin number , scan it and send it, see what he said to that!

I'm grateful for all your opinions and thoughts btw, I'm just wanting to cover all options, thanks

 

[simon ess]

Just one last thought, then I'll leave you to make your own decision. And I wish you all the best with whatever that decision might be.

I listen to my internal alarm button. Any doubt whatsoever and I walk away. No discussion, no rationalisation.

In this case, the fact he's willing to pay full price without even seeing the bike sends my alarm into full on klaxon mode.

Good luck.

 

[Alastair]

They've had 3 telephone conversations, the chap seems genuine and well educated, they've exchanged a few emails, loads of texts, names and address' ect.

Who rang who? Has your friend ever rung the buyer on a landline number,or has the buyer only ever run your friend?

This could be a naive buyer, or it could be a scam. Bank transfers can be reversed, and can be reversed quote a long time after they occur - a cheque is safer.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/accepting-payments/

 

[cosmicma]

if the distance isn't too great i would offer to transport it to his address at cost and deal face to face with cash

if he isn't keen on that idea i would want a very good explanation why not before going ahead

 

[Phil-D]

Who rang who? Has your friend ever rung the buyer on a landline number,or has the buyer only ever run your friend?

This could be a naive buyer, or it could be a scam. Bank transfers can be reversed, and can be reversed quote a long time after they occur - a cheque is safer.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/accepting-payments/

Alastair, thanks for the link, its me btw that selling the bike

I think the best thing to do is talk to my bank and see what their advice is about transfers from UK, high street banks and the possibility of the transfer being reversed, cheers

 

[Phil-D]

if the distance isn't too great i would offer to transport it to his address at cost and deal face to face with cash

if he isn't keen on that idea i would want a very good explanation why not before going ahead

Yes, that's another option that's crossed mi mind, but yet to be discussed, cheers Mark

 

[Leslie]

Have you considered using an escrow service where the funds are held by a third party until everyone is happy?

 

[Phil-D]

In

Have you considered using an escrow service where the funds are held by a third party until everyone is happy?

Interesting..........something I've never heard of but worth looking into, cheers


Anyway, I've been to the bank this morning and spoken to the manageress. If the money is paid by FPI (Faster Payment Inwards), the money can't be paid if there isn't sufficient funds or fake account, ect. If funds are sufficient, as soon as it shows in my bank, reversal is impossible, so according to that, I can't loose.

The other type of transfer is called a Bank Giro Transfer (BGT) apparently this is the one to be weary of. The best advice she could give was to have the money transferred a few days before collection, if it appears in my account as a BGT I have to contact her direct.

Thought this might be interesting for others to know if ever in a similar situation

I'll contact the buyer this evening, tell him how I want payment, see what he says. The other thing that's crossed mi mind is for us to exchange a copy of our photo driving licences, that way we'll both have photos with address' attached.

Thanks again for the help/advice, like most, it has rung alarm bells with me from the beginning, but it's looking like transactions like this can happen without it always being a scam if gone about it in the right way

 

[big soft moose]

I
I'll contact the buyer this evening, tell him how I want payment, see what he says. The other thing that's crossed mi mind is for us to exchange a copy of our photo driving licences, that way we'll both have photos with address' attached.

again providing copies of official documentation to a stranger is a really bad idea , an even worse idea than sending a scan of the logbook.

end of the day if you feel the need to do this sort of thing then your sub concious is telling you something isnt right - in those circumstances its best to go with your gut and walk away

 

[Raptor Mike]

Firstly I've just had a scan through what others said, but here's what I'll say.

I sold a bike through Gumtree. If memory serves me right because he wanted me to deliver it he paid me a cheque via post for the agreed amount for me to deliver it to him. So even if he didn't want the bike I'd got my costs. Then he paid me in cash for the bike when I dropped it off.

However your friends situation is getting way to complicated so seven if he's desperate for the sale this buyer doesn't sound like he's worth the hassle. Although I can understand where the buyer is coming from I would decline to sell and wait for a less complicated offer.

 

[dejongj]

nope you can submit a V62 stating that you have acquired the vehicle but the previous keeper didnt give you the V5C/2 - so long as you have the VIN number (which under usual circumstances you could only have got from the V5 or the vehicle) this won't be a problem.

And the current registered owner then still gets a letter first to confirm whether they've sold it or not. If you don't respond in I think 14 days they will approve.

I received such a letter last year when getting rid of my car. In order to help the buyer I responded immediately.

Personally I do not see much wrong with this transaction. Get the money cleared in your account, make certain it comes from the buyer and not someone else's name. And only let the courier company have it when you have cleared funds. Make certain it wasn't done by cheque. There is no reason why this can't happen via faster payments.


As a buyer I would want to see the documents can't see anything unreasonable about that.

 

[big soft moose]

As a buyer I would want to see the documents can't see anything unreasonable about that.

I agree - but as a buyer i'd also want a road test , the whole buying at a distance and collecting via courier thing is a bit odd.

 

[dejongj]

Sometimes yes, I've also bought vehicles unseen and without driving them. I mean they drive the way they would to. I would normally allow in the budget for tyres/brakes/bushes etc.

 

[Phil-D]

And the current registered owner then still gets a letter first to confirm whether they've sold it or not. If you don't respond in I think 14 days they will approve.

I received such a letter last year when getting rid of my car. In order to help the buyer I responded immediately.

Personally I do not see much wrong with this transaction. Get the money cleared in your account, make certain it comes from the buyer and not someone else's name. And only let the courier company have it when you have cleared funds. Make certain it wasn't done by cheque. There is no reason why this can't happen via faster payments.


As a buyer I would want to see the documents can't see anything unreasonable about that.

I agree - but as a buyer i'd also want a road test , the whole buying at a distance and collecting via courier thing is a bit odd.

You see this is my problem, I couldn't agree more with both of you. Buying something unseen wouldn't be for me, however far the distance, but it appears that people do.

I've spoken to him again and he is happy to pay 3 days before the collection date by FPI from a uk Natwest account

Here's a link about FPI payments, scroll down and see no.5 on how it works, once cleared by his bank the payment can't be cancelled

again, thanks for the input, cheers, Phil

 

[Raptor Mike]

Whenever I sell any vehicle I always right down who to, time, date so if they are caught speeding on the way home you have proof that you'd sold it by then, for example. But I also put No warranty given or implied. Myself and the buyer have a copy and each copy is signed by both. You need to email him later and get him to confirm he is happy about this before you go any further IMHO. Then if he doesn't want the bike or has any problems with it then tough, he should have looked at it, as long as you're as honest as you can be. Also as soon as the courier leaves, phone the dvla and tell them the situation so they have a record. This way if the van driver pulls over and does a hit on someone or something on the bike they don't think its you, although that's a bit extreme, you get my point?

 

[the black fox]

if it sounds to good to be true IT IS

one of the basic simple facts of life .the alarm bells are ringing .ask the alleged buyer to arrange to come up with the courier and pay in cash .

also find out the buyers address and do a google earth street search its easy to see what someone is like from where they live .there are lots and lots and lots of similar fraudulent deals to be found on the caravan forums . it might be a genuine buyer being cautious but a home land line phone number and a simple five minute chat i find is usually enough to weigh someone up .that works both ways .

 

[Lynton]

whats fishier, is your mate , that then transpires as you. Why come onto a forum and "a mate is selling...."

 

[Phil-D]

whats fishier, is your mate , that then transpires as you. Why come onto a forum and "a mate is selling...."

I hope your not serious, it was obvious in the first line it was me I was talking about, I thought the way it was wrote may add a little humour. I've read a lot of your posts Lynton, you seem a fairly well educated,intellegent chap.........reading your post makes it look like it wasn't obvious to you!

 

[Phil-D]

if it sounds to good to be true IT IS

one of the basic simple facts of life .the alarm bells are ringing .ask the alleged buyer to arrange to come up with the courier and pay in cash .

also find out the buyers address and do a google earth street search its easy to see what someone is like from where they live .there are lots and lots and lots of similar fraudulent deals to be found on the caravan forums . it might be a genuine buyer being cautious but a home land line phone number and a simple five minute chat i find is usually enough to weigh someone up .that works both ways .

Believe me Jeff, I'm quite a sceptic myself, so I don't disagree with what you've said.

I've check out his address on Google Earth, its there. I've found his facebook account without him knowing I've look at it, every thing he's said has checked out. Nothing has been finalised, its all just speculation so far cheers

 

[dejongj]

All sounds pretty good actually. I'm sure it will be fine.

 

[big soft moose]

. I've read a lot of your posts Lynton, you seem a fairly well educated,intellegent chap........!

I tend to picture him ore as a peasant living in a mud hut surrounded by marshland, trading in sugar beat for basic necesities