ON LOCATION STUDIO SHOOTS (at home)

Here's an example of an unedited photo, this time with a key light (same as above) and NO light in the background.

Hilite_example_2.jpg

Your a star. This is going to be a strange request, but next time you do a shoot, can I see the BG light on and KEY LIGHT off?

Gary.
 
That's looking very cool mate!! Hope you finish soon :)

I may just buy one and punt it if I don't get on with it.

I would love to build one though, 14ft x 14ft, to help control my studio backdrop a little better...
G.
 
That's looking very cool mate!! Hope you finish soon :)

I may just buy one and punt it if I don't get on with it.

I would love to build one though, 14ft x 14ft, to help control my studio backdrop a little better...
G.
Hmmn...
As Hoppy has already told you, the bigger it is the worse the 'wrap' problem will be.
The real answer, if you must do 'Venture' style, is to have a large studio, light an ordinary white background evenly and place the subject well away from it.
If you don't have enough depth to do that and feel that you have to use the Hilite then the best answer is not to get one bigger than you absolutely need - avoid excessive wrap by 'enlarging' it in PP

Edit - ah, meant to post that under my own name. Not to worry.
 
If people have requested you shoot in their home why not use a 'natural' background - rather than a studio b/g?

So they look like they had a day in the studio :lol:

Very interesting & educational thread, thanks all :thumbs:
 
Hmmn...
As Hoppy has already told you, the bigger it is the worse the 'wrap' problem will be.
The real answer, if you must do 'Venture' style, is to have a large studio, light an ordinary white background evenly and place the subject well away from it.
If you don't have enough depth to do that and feel that you have to use the Hilite then the best answer is not to get one bigger than you absolutely need - avoid excessive wrap by 'enlarging' it in PP

Edit - ah, meant to post that under my own name. Not to worry.

Can I ask,

Is the size related to Edge Degradation too? I understand wrap is completely different...

G.
 
Can I ask,

Is the size related to Edge Degradation too? I understand wrap is completely different...

G.
No.
Excessive size of the light source (relative to the size and distance of the subject) causes wrap (or wraparound light as it's better known). Hilite backgrounds are of course just a softbox, therefore a light source. So are any overlit white backgrounds.
Edge degradation is caused by too much light from the background hitting the edges of the subject, it's always there but is much more obvious where the subject has fine, fair hair.
Flare is caused by both excessive size AND excessive brightness. Actually it's due to unwanted light entering the lens, so if you filled the frame with part of the face(for example) and didn't include ANY background then there would be no flare.
 
So the larger the lightsource, and the closer to it you are, the more wrap and essentially, the more exposing of your subject from the backdrop so to speak.

Here's a question then, which might help me continue to understand.

Is there an equation or solution which can give an exact answer to the following.

1: Keeping it simple, we are in a blacked out 40ft x 40ft room.
2: We have access to a 8x7 Hilite.
3: We are getting a blown 255 white background at F11.

Can we determine the EXACT distance required to have a 100% silhouette of a figure (black), vs the exact opposite backdrop (pure white)....

What about a 50% silhouette and so on?
Gary.
 
...Can we determine the EXACT distance required to have a 100% silhouette of a figure (black), vs the exact opposite backdrop (pure white)....

Depends on the distance between the camera and the model, and the model to the background.

Wrap is essentially a reflection of the background on the subject, and since angle of incidence equals angle of reflectance, it's easy enough to work out - at least in theory.

But given the complex nature of reflections off cheaks and ears and chins and hair etc, you will get a rough idea through experience, and then on a shot by shot basis moderate camera to subject and subject to background distance, in combination with width of background (if you can change that).

If you can see the background from the camera position, you will get some wrap - a tiny amount at least. The wider the background, the more of the face it is 'seeing' and reflecting off it. If the background is very wide and the subject right up against it, you're going to get wrap around almost the whole face.

Also bear in mind the inverse square law which means that light reflecting from the far edges of a flat background will be less bright.

Then of course, it depends on how much wrap you want. I think some subjects work well with a lot of wrap (Venture style) and others much less going down to very little. But it is the wrap that gives this style of shot its character, otherwise you could just shoot against any old background and cut it out in photoshop.

If you can build a big Hilite-style background and cover it with black drapes that you can pull across to taste, you will have a wonderfully controllable set-up that will work in quite a small space. It will also help you to control flare (if you haven't got the bellows lens hood I mentioned to you months ago ;) ).

Edit: just thinking about using drapes to adjust the size of a custom made Hilite-style background, it would sort out a lot of space issues. The back-lit Hilite allows you to work right up close to it, and the drapes allow you to moderate wrap to taste in an instant, without moving subject and camera forwards and backwards all the time
 
My worry about WRAP hoppy is the Shadows it can rob you of in a tiny space. I have this under moderate control in the shop, with a view to completely solving the problem...

My worry is with a hilite at home, in an even smaller space, how do I keep nice shadows with such a setup...
G.
 
Also, any idea on materials required, and whether or not the inside of a hilite has internal reflectors etc? How would you guys go about building one? This is IF I want one in the shop - 8x7 is far too small.

I would aim for 12 x 12 or maybe even 14 x 16. Building the frame is a doddle, as is putting backing on the back, top and sides. What I am unsure of is whether or not the inside is coated in reflective material, and also what material to use for the actual diffusion mesh...

G.
 
My worry about WRAP hoppy is the Shadows it can rob you of in a tiny space. I have this under moderate control in the shop, with a view to completely solving the problem...

My worry is with a hilite at home, in an even smaller space, how do I keep nice shadows with such a setup...
G.

Gary, see my edit above that I think you've just cross-posted with. If you could do the same with an actual portable Hilite - contrive to mask off any unwanted area - you have control of shadows.

Would you make one of these for me too please? :D
 
Gary, see my edit above that I think you've just cross-posted with. If you could do the same with an actual portable Hilite - contrive to mask off any unwanted area - you have control of shadows.

Would you make one of these for me too please? :D

Are we talking about the same shadows? I guess I mean local shadows on the face, and subject, not worried re shadows hitting backdrop which is a non issue.

For example.

SETUP 01: Single key light in GIANT softbox
Stunning light, amazing shadows on the face, lovely deep tones.

SETUP 02: Same Keylight, and Background exposed for white via two lights
Whilst I have this working, and I am happy with the results, I am not happy at my lack of control over the shadows. The shadows in setup two are much less obvious than they are in setup 01. This is ONLY as a result of the background exposure bringing too much light to my subject...

By admitting defeat on the space, I need an alternative solution :) So I am trying to establish if a giant hilite will solve this problem.

Gary.
 
'Wrap' in this context is more fully described as highlight wrap. I guess you could also talk about shadow wrap in the same way, which you would get from a black background.

Highlights are by definition the absence of shadows. You can't have both.

I think the effect you are describing in 02 is fill-in that you are getting from spill off the background (around the studio) plus flare. The answer to that is to kill all excess background, ie with drapes and/or by shielding the lens with screens, and a really efficient lens hood.
 
Cheers Hoppy,

It all makes sense when I read it, but I dare not arse about with my settings in the shop until I at least take delivery of the proper studio heads. At that point, operation giant backlit wall shall begin! :) Controlling wrap, edge deterioration and flair is absolutely vital. I have everything but wrap I think under complete control at the moment.

Gary.
 
There must be a limit to how big you can make a HiLite without getting bright spots and darker corners. The ones I've looked at are white inside, I think with silver corner panels.

Am I right in thinking that the bigger ones are deeper? That would makes sense and help even out the coverage. No idea what the front diffuser material is.

If you go very big I'm guessing you might need four heads, but I think the main thing to ensure is that the whole thing is enclosed. The light just bounces around inside and the only way out is through the front, which results in amazingly even coverage. But there must be a limit to size/evenness.

I'm liking the idea of a custom HiLite, adjustable for width with drapes. Plus screens for those occasions when you want max wrap but need to control spill, and of course that sooper-dooper lens hood that I know you're gonna get one day... :)

NB Lens hood example. I shoot most portraits with my 17-55 2.8, around 50mm. The lens hood I use is off my 100-400L which is 4in deep and it does not vignette. Shooting white backgrounds, the difference between using the recommended hood (which is only optimum at 17mm) and the long one is a big jump in contrast.
 
I generally light my hilite about f11 across the hilite however to get even light acrodss it, I find 2 lights much better than only one. Blasting the hilite with light is not a great idea as you will get edge degradation unless your subjects are far enough back (which is not usually the case in a subjects home environment.

The floor for me is a problem but it's very easily fixed in Ps with an adjustment layer - I'd guess there will certainly be more editing required than for your studio shots Gary.

First image is how my floor looks pre-edit. Very grey! This is two lights in the background set to f13 (I think) and one large octabox on the subject at f8. This did blow out the background a little more than I normally do. I like to try and keep the background just shy of 255 and then edit it in post to blow it. This means not too much light being thrown at my subject.

Shot using the 7x6 background (long edge across the floor). 2x 400BX lights in the background getting an even f13 across it.

Original4.jpg


Although it looks bad, the floor takes about 20 seconds to fix.

Edit6.jpg
 
It is black top, sides and back,

The lastolite HiLite has white sides (I just saw your edit) all around and there are zips that open to let the lights in.

don't think reflective inside.
The lastolite has a reflective back (inside the hilite) that you should turn your lights towards and the reflected light is more even. Back is a shiny black that unfortunately can't be used as it's too reflective! Why this was done is a mystery but I suppose they wanted to sell their cloth backgrounds for it (which is great too)!

The front is white, with (annoyingly) a black border which holds the thing together.
You can see a trace of the black border in my image. Although there it takes a few seconds to remove but a white border would make much more sense.
 
Gary, another few points - My early images showed too much spill from my lights becuase I had them turned up too high. Using one light in the background means it needs to be turned up high so as to light across the background - you end up with hotspots and the likelyhood of the light reflecting on cheecks and the side of heads (see below (unedited) One light in HiLite subject right - so very bright right hand side!

Edge.jpg


Lighting with 2 light means a little more space (aboutn a minimum of 10ft across) but allows you to reduce the power of the background and get more control of the wrap and any edge degradation.

My subjects are rarely 1ft from the background though! Usually around 3'-6' - although for group shots, my subjects at the rear maybe as close as 1' though!

I guess if your lights are fairly low though (mabye half a stop brighter than your subject), you may be able to retain edge detail whilst editing the bg in post to make it pure white.

I also like it because you can also shoot with NO LIGHT inside the backdrop and you get a nice grey background. Another unedited image

grey.jpg


The biggest issue for me is the floor! I'd love to add an additional cheap low powered light or two for this purpose. A couple of DLite 200s would do me - but I'd need more space :( But like I say a few secs in Ps should help.

If you have a group shot you may need to use a focal length that has a fov wider than your background is. Easily sorted by making a selection and pressing delete (with white as the background colour). (Takes a few secs)

If you have any questions or requests let me know. I'll try and set it up to show only the background lights on (a shame I didn't see this last week as I've been shooting every weekend for the last while and only got a rest this weekend to edit!!!

If you want me to come over between Christmas and New year, I could do so and we could play around in your studio?! I'll bring the hilite and some other gear I have....

JD
 
I do however like the black background :) A "bottletop" cover (I think it's called) Just held up with the pins in the hilite - probably needs 2 people to set it up though as it's a tiny bit awkward to set up.

Here's some recent shots (my neice (blonde) and her friends)! Some with white, some with black backgrounds - all with one softbox on subjects (a 135cm Octa) (black background images I used a triflector too but I realise my light needs to be on a boom! Crimbo pressie I hope :)

KJG-138.jpg


KJG-171.jpg


KJG-98.jpg


KJG-54.jpg


KJG-49.jpg


KJG-30b.jpg


Sorry for the large number of images - you can see them all here www.jbdavies.co.uk/kjg

Still a lot to learn - particularly regards posing!

Cheers
JD
 
I think there is still some confusion over terminology, and the difference between wrap and bleaching (edge degradation).

Wrap is about the width of the background, relative to the subject, and how much of it reflects off the subject. Wide background, subject close to it, equals lots of wrap. And the opposite of course.

Bleaching is down to nothing but the difference between the background exposure and the foreground (main subject light). It has nothing to do with the distance between the subject and the background. This distance can be used to control wrap (as described above) but not bleaching. If you maintain the exposure level between the background and foreground lights, bleaching will be the same. Moving the subject forward reduces the intensity of the background light (inverse square law) but if you turn it up to compensate and maintain the correct front/rear ratio, you will get exactly the same amount of bleaching (but reduced wrap). (I think there is some confusion here due to the difficulty of taking incident light readings when you have effectively two different light sources. Incident readings should really be taken from the subject position, but that doesn't work so well in this case. The LCD with blinkies enabled and a careful look at the histogram should be the deciding factor.)

Flare is something different again. It's a lens fault, and some are better than others. Flare comes in two flavours - coloured spots and patches which are obvious, and veiling glare which often goes unnoticed. Veiling glare is a general reduction in overall contrast, loss of 'punch' and 'pop' which flattens the image and makes it look very dull. With so much bright light blasting at the lens it is impossible to eliminate flare completely, but covering over any unnecessary areas of bright background will help a lot, as will screening off those areas.

A lens hood too will make a big difference, especially if you cannot do any of the other things. Lens hoods on zooms are pretty useless, and only optimum at the wide end. Lenses designed for full frame when used on crop cameras are also way off optimum. As I mentioned above, the hood I use with my 17-55 lens on a 40D is 4in long and from my 100-400L lens - at 50mm it is perfect. You can make a very good lens hood with two L shapes of black card and some BluTac. Stick it to the front of your normal lens hood and keep moving the L shapes inwards until you get vignetting, then move them out a bit. You will be amazed at how much extra shading you'll get. Try some test shots with and without to see the difference. Or just get one of these very good adjustable bellows hoods from Lee http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lee-single-slotted-lens-hood/p1010399 £89 well spent for any studio photographer :thumbs:

Final thing is spill, which can look like flare - basically just light from the background (and other lights) spilling around the room and bouncing/reflecting off ceilings and walls, carpets and furnishings. In the average domesting setting, there is tons of this stuff and while it's not so bad as flare it will soften the effect of the front key light, sometimes a lot. You won't get any dark shadows at all. Kill it by covering over any unnecessary areas of background, and don't use a shoot-through brolly which are hopeless for spill as half the light comes straight out of the back. Normal brolly or softbox are much better.
 
If you maintain the exposure level between the background and foreground lights, bleaching will be the same. Moving the subject forward reduces the intensity of the background light (inverse square law) but if you turn it up to compensate and maintain the correct front/rear ratio, you will get exactly the same amount of bleaching (but reduced wrap).

Very good explanation, and a very good point too about the ineffectiveness of the manufacturer-supplied lens hoods for zoom lenses.

But I query the point quoted above - it's 100% right but I don't see the relevance because there's no point in "turn it up to compensate and maintain the correct front/rear ratio" because, in practical terms, the brightness of the background will be identical regardless of the distance. Therefore, setting the background to (say) 1 stop brighter than the foreground may cause edge degradation at a close subject-to-background distance but not at a long one.
 
Very good explanation, and a very good point too about the ineffectiveness of the manufacturer-supplied lens hoods for zoom lenses.

But I query the point quoted above - it's 100% right but I don't see the relevance because there's no point in "turn it up to compensate and maintain the correct front/rear ratio" because, in practical terms, the brightness of the background will be identical regardless of the distance. Therefore, setting the background to (say) 1 stop brighter than the foreground may cause edge degradation at a close subject-to-background distance but not at a long one.

Thanks Garry. I think you are boing polite; I was talking poo and got confused over ISL. Doh :thumbsdown: I've edited the relevant paragraph in the post, which now stands as I intented.

However, I'm not quite sure what you are meaning. You appear to say (correctly) that while the brightness of the background remains the same regardless of distance, you "may cause edge degradation at a close subject-to-background distance but not at a long one."

I don't understand that. You will get more wrap at close distance, but not more edge degradation (bleaching) so long as the lighting ratio is maintained.
 
Thanks Garry. I think you are boing polite; I was talking poo and got confused over ISL. Doh :thumbsdown: I've edited the relevant paragraph in the post, which now stands as I intented.

However, I'm not quite sure what you are meaning. You appear to say (correctly) that while the brightness of the background remains the same regardless of distance, you "may cause edge degradation at a close subject-to-background distance but not at a long one."

I don't understand that. You will get more wrap at close distance, but not more edge degradation (bleaching) so long as the lighting ratio is maintained.

Simply that when the light only has to travel (say) 1 ft from the background to the subject the amount of light striking the edges of the subject will be much greater (8x) than if the subject is 4' from the background.

As the level of light at the background position will be constant regardless of the distance between the subject and the background, there is far greater risk of edge degradation (and greater wraparound effect) the closer the subject is placed to the background.
 
Ah right. Gotcha :thumbs:

Yes, in this case it is the wrap that is lightening and appearing to degrade the edges, and while the cause is not the same as bleaching though excessive exposure, the effect looks much the same.

Good point, important to make that distinction. Thanks for clarifying :)
 
Ok hopefully these will help.

1st go with the Hilite though and done in a bit of a rush before heading out for the day with my daughter ice skating.

All taken with D200 set 8 ft from background. And using 2x Bowen 500s in hilite at power 8.4

Camera manual F11 & 1/250
Hilite F16 (No other lights apart from those in Hilite.)

1ftHilite.jpg


2ftHilite.jpg


3ftHilite.jpg


4ftHilite.jpg


ps. least I can see that I need to get the blower out on those dust particles and bottom left of hilite is a little under exposed
 
Ok hopefully these will help. 1st go with the Hilite though and done in a bit of a rush before heading out for the day with my daughter ice skating.

All taken with D200 set 8 ft from background.

1ftHilite.jpg


2ftHilite.jpg


3ftHilite.jpg


4ftHilite.jpg

Extremely useful and extremely promising results, the 1ft distance image - with my current setup, a technical impossibility.


G.
 
Although it looks bad, the floor takes about 20 seconds to fix.

Any chance of showing me or pointing me in the right direction to a 20sec
floor fix please :)
 
Lightroom
Local adjustment brush exposure to a suitable level
Automask box ticked

Paint away..!
 
Any chance of showing me or pointing me in the right direction to a 20sec
floor fix please :)

I use the magic selection tool (can't remember the right name) set to a tolerance of 10-20 and just click on the grey and white parts of the background. just click around the subject so that iot picks up all of the floor and background. Now feather the selection (6-12 pixels for a high res image). Make a layers adjustment layer and drag the white triangle left till it looks right around your subject. You can then paint white on any areas that need additional touch ups.

What you may want to do also is watch the shadow area on the floor and don't blitz it out. i sometimes make an additional layer for the areas around the feet and feather iot more so some of the shadowa are remains as a nice soft shadow.

Once you know how, it takes around 20 secs :) A few clicks to select the backdrop, a quick adjustment layer (you can hold down the Alt key as you drag the triangle and you'll see the area affected.

Lightroom is not very good as when you paint, you are also painting over the shadow areas and although you can mask it, Ps is just much easier.
 
Are those of you with SHINY floors AND a hilite still having to process?

Gary.

Good thinking Gary ;)

I've never tried a shiny floor, but I think that if you get your shooting angle right, the specular highlight might just do what you want.

Clever :thumbs:
 
Might have missed this somewhere but what shiny floor options are there for a mobile setup. I can lug the hilite, train, lights, stands and camera up a few flights of stairs but i'm not sure about a 5'x7' sheet of perspex :lol:
 
Might have missed this somewhere but what shiny floor options are there for a mobile setup. I can lug the hilite, train, lights, stands and camera up a few flights of stairs but i'm not sure about a 5'x7' sheet of perspex :lol:

You have a valid point, very limited point RE mobile setup. I say limited, as there must be a roll of something which is see through and reflective...

Gary.
 
Shiny floor here is a godsend. Needs ZERO PP with my current background lighting. I really hope the same applies with a HILITE style system.

G.

It cannot be anything else :thumbs:

Your set-up is beginning to sound like a kind of package and recipe that you could franchise out for Venture style portraits in people's homes... ;) Now that's an interesting business angle :suspect: :eek:
 
It cannot be anything else :thumbs:

Your set-up is beginning to sound like a kind of package and recipe that you could franchise out for Venture style portraits in people's homes... ;) Now that's an interesting business angle :suspect: :eek:

I have been thinking along those lines, but not really in peoples homes. Think just outside peoples homes ;) :D

Gary.
 
Back
Top