Olympics - SAM missiles on flats...

[Lynton]

OK.........

the masterminds that run this country, if I believe Radio 2,are seriously considering putting Surface to Air Missiles on the top of tower blocks in East London to prevent terrorist attacks on the Olympic games....

Now after a quick look on flightradar it seems that given a westerly wind most approach onto 27 at Heathrow come in more or less a bit north of the Thames, approx 10,000 ft over the M25 and then descending into LHR. (so about 7000 ft over Stratford, give or take depending on conditions, aircraft etc....this bit doesn't matter)

Now assuming "Johnny terrorist" has taken control of a 747 on finals into LHR, with the intent on crashing it into the olympic stadium when the mens 100m finals is on....

The Army shoot the plane down using the SAM's....... that plane / debris / passengers are going to land somewhere (at a pretty high velocity) and destroy lots of London, or is that something that Dave & Co have overlooked...

 

[cambsno]

And if we don't take precautions and something happens the government are slated so damned if u do or don't.

I would argue that a plane blown up in mid air causes less devastation than one hitting the ground in one piece. Also, terrorists would have seized control long before finals and the missiles could be used sooner than on approach. Also, we are seen to be doing something, and that may just be enough to put someone off that idea. They had them in china too I believe in 2008.

 

[DemiLion]

And if we don't take precautions and something happens the government are slated so damned if u do or don't.

I would argue that a plane blown up in mid air causes less devastation than one hitting the ground in one piece. Also, terrorists would have seized control long before finals and the missiles could be used sooner than on approach. Also, we are seen to be doing something, and that may just be enough to put someone off that idea. They had them in china too I believe in 2008.

There's a little place in Scotland called Lockerbie that might disagree with that assessment!

The missile that has been cited so far is the HVM system, designed for CAD only; ie 1000m ceiling and max range of 5,500m, which is nothing really. If these get used it's going to be a hell of a mess which ever way you look at it.


They're eye candy, or at best a last second (not minute) 'holly cr4p' option.

 

[ecsrobin]

It's all just the press and there anti Olympics attitude, the last couple of Olympics and winter Olympics have had air defences.

 

[neil_g]

agree with mark, i suspect theyre more of a deterant than anything.

however devistation of flying a plane into a packed 10,000's seat arena vs maybe a lower number shooting down over a populated area.

either way i dont think the decision to actually use them (which i suspect they wont as like i said theyre too much of a deterant) would be made lightly.

 

[DemiLion]

agree with mark, i suspect theyre more of a deterant than anything.

however devistation of flying a plane into a packed 10,000's seat arena vs maybe a lower number shooting down over a populated area.

either way i dont think the decision to actually use them (which i suspect they wont as like i said theyre too much of a deterant) would be made lightly.

Actually you're right- I rather stupidly hadn't factored in the odd person or two in the stadiae.

B4stard of a decision to have to make though. Freddie Forsyth called in the Devil's Alternative.

 

[Russ77]

I heard about this last night...... Don't think it's really is really any more than a bit of sabre rattling

 

[frank]

Had to laugh at a comment on the bbc news website on the subject "With that amount of scrap on the roofs of the flats it won't last long anyway"

Next on the agenda will be Snipers with long range rifles instructed to shoot anyone with a camera bigger than a fag packet. :nuts:
This country has gone mad

 

[cambsno]

There's a little place in Scotland called Lockerbie that might disagree with that assessment!

The missile that has been cited so far is the HVM system, designed for CAD only; ie 1000m ceiling and max range of 5,500m, which is nothing really. If these get used it's going to be a hell of a mess which ever way you look at it.

They're eye candy, or at best a last second (not minute) 'holly cr4p' option.

I not an expert, but I would hazard a guess a missile would cause more damage than a bomb so impact on the ground would be less.

 

[DemiLion]

I not an expert, but I would hazard a guess a missile would cause more damage than a bomb so impact on the ground would be less.

Not really. Missiles are designed to incapacitate or bring down an aircraft, not disintegrate it, so the amount of explosive used is relatively low. What causes the damage is the kinetic energy of the impact and shrapnel from the delayed action missile head.

Incidentally the amount of HE used in the PanAm flight is reckoned to be about 16oz, or the same as a single HVM warhead. Having said that the HVM puts three warheads on target, if everything works properly!

However as I said above, I hadn't taken the crowded arena into account (which was a bit daft!)

 

[Steep]

A Rapier crew once shot down a goose on the Falklands, disintegrated isn't the word for it.

 

[DemiLion]

A Rapier crew once shot down a goose on the Falklands, disintegrated isn't the word for it.

I think that you mean a goose once got itself onto the Rapier's flight path (especially if it was RAF Regt)!

 

[desantnik]

They had them in china too I believe in 2008.

Naturally.... any Progressive Peoples State always has a multi-layered integrated air defence network

I guess the interest/hysteria here is that the UK isn't used to seeing soldiers/air defence deployed outside of military bases or in foreign wars.

The problem of falling destroyed aircraft is as old as air defence itself. Yes, it can cause damage to things on the ground, the concept though is that the enemy doesn't cause damage to the intended, valued, target that the weapons protect...

I remember being told a story by a former member of Gillingham Home Guard - he was a gunner on a fearsome thing called a z-battery - a multi-barrelled rocket launcher contraption. He told me they only fired it once at a loan German bomber seen over Medway.... they missed... the resulting debris however caused so much damage to the town (some might say "improvements") that the local authorities refused to let them fire it again, preferring to take the hits from the Luftwaffe!

 

[Steep]

I think that you mean a goose once got itself onto the Rapier's flight path (especially if it was RAF Regt)!

No I mean it was targeted, they were supposed to be tracking a drone apparently and the goose flew across at the wrong moment

 

[DazJW]

The issue was raised by one of the residents of the flats where this is happening and his objection was more to the way putting them there was handled.
The first they knew of it was a leaflet in their pigeon holes, it's since transpired that two of the people in charge of the building who okayed it all don't live at the building and that one person who does live at the building and should have been at the meeting was excluded. The residents were given a date to come and make their views heard which was something like the 16th May when the soldiers were arriving on the 2nd May and any questions about how it was cleared, under what powers and why they weren't consulted have been totally ignored. That and that it potentially makes their homes a terrorist target.

@brianwhelanhack on Twitter is the one who started contacting the media about it and he's continued posting about it.

Presumably they're mainly being set up as a deterrent and possibly a last resort. Showering bits everywhere and the bulk of the plane landing in housing might be seen as a better option than a plane being crashed into an 80,000 capacity stadium.

 

[frank]

Theres every chance the missiles would be used long before the offending plane got within reach of the stadium. So the stadium would probably be the safest place to be in the event of a plane being used by bombers. The poor folk who live in surrounding areas in their houses and in the streets are the folk who will be affected. Lockerbie all over again.
Maybe they should just shut Heathrow Gatwick etc etc down, that would solve their problem

 

[neil_g]

It costs a small fortune to shut an airport for even the smallest amount of times, if that ever happened for the Olympics I'll eat my socks

 

[Beardy]

If you're a terrorist and want to hijack a plane I suspect a plane landing at City airport would be a much better idea than one landing at Heathrow. They're at a few hundred feet near the Olympic stadium not a few thousand. I suspect they're also worried about a plane coming into Stanstead which is why there's a missile battery at Epping Forest as it's pretty much directly between Stanstead and the Olympic Stafium....it's also right on the M25 and plenty of forest or agricultural land for a plane to fall on.

 

[DazJW]

The person who kicked up a fuss about it now seems to be being evicted.

 

[big soft moose]

London has air defences the whole time anyway - ie typhoons on scramble alert - which is why we had 2 going supersonic down the channel last month when that chucklehead inadvertently put the duress code into his transponder

A typhoon armed with air to air missiles is going to be a damn sight more effective than a sam battery

the reason we have the latter as well is because hijack isnt the only threat - suppose some terrs decided to buy a small biz jet (these people are sometimes funded by saudi dont forget so cash isnt an issue) load it up with explosives, file a flightplan that took them close to the olympics then suddenly deviate and crash it into a high profile target - in those circs there wouldnt be time for the tiffies to scramble

 

[MWHCVT]

I'm not overly bothered about SAM's being put in place, they really will be the last line of defence and you can bet if we didn't have them and they could have stopped something all hell would let loose :shrug:

I had a massive rant on out local papers facebook page because they posted asking for stories of damage from the sonic boom

 

[DazJW]

A typhoon armed with air to air missiles is going to be a damn sight more effective than a sam battery

The Americans had huge problems directing aircraft to intercept the planes on 9/11. It was partly because they weren't prepared for that type of incident which you'd imagine we now are but the planes still have to get from where they are to where they need to be, whereas a missile battery is always there.

 

[desantnik]

I wonder how they have thought through the missile engagement protocol?

I mean, in a combat situation you have two things normally in operation:

1) Weapons free areas - anything flying is a target (combined with safe corridors where no air target is engaged, usually for a period of time to allow raids to go/in out)

2) IFF units on the air defence weapons to query and identify enemy aircraft

They won't have either of those and London airspace is pretty busy. The likelyhood of being able to positively identify one civillian aircraft as the target from a sky full is next to zero...

At least the fighters can make either transponder queries or fly in to check tail numbers before engaging (assuming they have time, I suggest they probably would not)

 

[bass_junkie83]

I really don't see an issue with it, or even understand why a resident of one of the tower blocks used should even need to be consulted before hand. Sure, let them know what's happening, but don't give them an option on it.

 

[DemiLion]

I wonder how they have thought through the missile engagement protocol?

I mean, in a combat situation you have two things normally in operation:

1) Weapons free areas - anything flying is a target (combined with safe corridors where no air target is engaged, usually for a period of time to allow raids to go/in out)

2) IFF units on the air defence weapons to query and identify enemy aircraft

They won't have either of those and London airspace is pretty busy. The likelyhood of being able to positively identify one civillian aircraft as the target from a sky full is next to zero...

At least the fighters can make either transponder queries or fly in to check tail numbers before engaging (assuming they have time, I suggest they probably would not)

I'd imagine that there'll be an air exclusion zone for heavy carriers on the East-West approach to LHR bringing them in over South London (ie the early morning flight path) and a min ceiling of 5000 or so for all traffic East.

The approach and landing control at LCY is going to be more tricky, but then again they are much lighter aircraft and easier to kaboom!

 

[Jimmy_Lemon]

I really don't see an issue with it, or even understand why a resident of one of the tower blocks used should even need to be consulted before hand. Sure, let them know what's happening, but don't give them an option on it.

Damn straight, someone is going to turn your house into a military base and an ideal target for any naughty people, why would you be arsed about that? Just get on with life and enjoy the chaos that is about to descend on your doorstep.

 

[bass_junkie83]

A sam site is never going to be a target for terrorists, especially not during the Olympic games.

If there is a viable threat during the olympics, then it needs to be protected against.

Personally, I believe that those at the top, be it both government and military, have a damn sight better idea of what is going on and how best to act than the average London tower block dweller, or internet forum user for that matter.

As such, I would feel much more comfortable knowing that what I consider to be the right people are the ones making the important decisions, and are not being forced to use second or third best alternatives to keep a few members of the public happy who just don't fancy having scary army men sitting on their roof.

 

[desantnik]

I'd actually say that the missile sites are probably one of the safest places to be in this operation - unlikely to be a terrist' target itself and unlikely to be the landing site of a 747 with one wing missing....

 

[desantnik]

Personally, I believe that those at the top, be it both government and military, have a damn sight better idea of what is going on and how best to act than the average London tower block dweller, or internet forum user for that matter.

Hmmmmm I wouldn't be so sure about that

 

[big soft moose]

The Americans had huge problems directing aircraft to intercept the planes on 9/11. It was partly because they weren't prepared for that type of incident which you'd imagine we now are but the planes still have to get from where they are to where they need to be, whereas a missile battery is always there.

True but a missile battery is always in one place (okay I know there are truck and man portables but you know what I mean) so can only engage a jet in the missile envelope - which isnt a problem if you are talking about something like aegis (found on some american warships) which have a huge range - but these twower block ones will only be able to engage in the imediate vicinity which is going to lead to crap falling on london if a plane is engaged

A typhoon can intercept and shoot down over sea or farmland

 

[desantnik]

The problem they face is that the range at which they can achieve detection for a probable kamikaze attack is so small given that the likely target is so close to legit aircraft flight paths that cannot be diverted.

Time from detection to impact would be very minimal indeed.

An aircraft over Brentwood at 500kmh would impact the target in 20 seconds... there just isn't enough time for the brylcream boys to do very much...

 

[big soft moose]

That would surely depend on whether the pilots were able to indicate the hijack early enough - i believe that since 9/11 there are vduress codes in place etc.

of course that doesnt help if the terrs hire or buy a plane - but you can't cover every eventuality

(personally I'd be more concerned about suicide bombers in the crowd, car bombs and IEDs on the routes and tricks like the IRA used to pull like mortars mounted in the back of transit vans , and hoaxes designed to tie up resources )

 

[Spuff]

The person who kicked up a fuss about it now seems to be being evicted.

Following that link it looks like they've left some of their missiles laying around too

 

[ecsrobin]

Damn straight, someone is going to turn your house into a military base and an ideal target for any naughty people, why would you be arsed about that? Just get on with life and enjoy the chaos that is about to descend on your doorstep.

Well it wouldn't have Been a target if the idiot hadn't have gone public. It shocks me in this day and age everyone thinks they can make a quick buck from a story instead of thinking of the bigger story and keeping quiet.

 

[DemiLion]

Well it wouldn't have Been a target if the idiot hadn't have gone public. It shocks me in this day and age everyone thinks they can make a quick buck from a story instead of thinking of the bigger story and keeping quiet.

Keeping quiet would rather defeat the point of the whole exercise!

 

[Pegasus2]

New missiles deployed at Olympic games, now terrorists won't have to crash planes, we'll shoot them down instead

Seriously, I don't think shooting a 777 or an comercial jet down is an option once its over the city, unless its heading for the stadium.

 

[ecsrobin]

Keeping quiet would rather defeat the point of the whole exercise!

Not really because there are some things that you shout about like the typhoons at northolt and there are other things you would like to keep quiet.

 

[DemiLion]

Not really because there are some things that you shout about like the typhoons at northolt and there are other things you would like to keep quiet.

Have you any idea how many photocalls the MoD have held this week?

The HVM sites were designed to be public knowledge.

 

[desantnik]

I had an Apache buzz my village yesterday morning. To some (other than Afgans lol) this might be a normal event, but its not down here, we don't get stuff like that unless there is an airshow on...

Nobody mentioned Apaches...

 

[unclened]

what I don't understand is that the govt are acting like this is a completely new threat to the UK. It was almost 11years ago when 9/11 happened and hasn't aircraft security been significantly improved since then. Is it really possible for a terrorist to gain access to the flightdeck given the changes made post 9/11? All this hoo ha about protecting the olympics is being over egged in my opinion. Thousands of planes pass over Great London on a daily basis. Taking out One Canada Sq, Tower 42, Houses of Parliament is likely to cause far greater damage to the UK than a stadium. Why all the fuss now?