OFT Report on Petrol/Diesel Prices

big soft moose said:
i meant in performance - theres an enormous difference in price - I just filled up at tesco a 1.38/l - our local esso is charging 1.45/l . and lets not even get onto motorway price fixing - last time i had to fill up on the M5 it was 1.49/l
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Yep, noted too late :)
 
Davec223 said:
Yes they do fill up from the same refineries but the additives are added when the fuel is unloaded at the petrol station.
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Where do these additives come from? cos they sure as hell aren't kept on the tanker.
 
looking arround the web the consensus of speculative opinion seems to be that they are added at the refinery after the tanker is loaded.

personally i have my doubts about that, because i can't see how you would sensibly add stuff to a loaded tanker, or how you would ensure thorough blending in those circumstances
 
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A few years ago, I was doing loads of the same miles up and down the A38 to visit my Mum in Plymouth (coincidentally in the same ward that I was in more recently) after her brain bleed. I took the opportunity to do my own real world comparison between Shell's Optimax (IIRC) and Sainsbury's own brand unleaded fuels.

To get consistency, I filled up several times in a row at each filling station so the fuel was as close to pure single brand as possible (without a tank drain etc). I didn't have CC so let my right foot keep the speed as constant as possible at 70MPH and the times I was doing the trips were the same each day so the traffic was as close as possible to the same too.

Going by the trip computer reading (which I had tested over the first couple of tankfulls and which was within 1%), both fuels returned exactly the same (to 1 decimal point) at 37.7MPG. The Shell fuel was significantly more expensive.

At the time, Shell were claiming a 5% improvement in fuel economy. I've since read that to achieve that improvement, the driver had to modify their driving style in ways that would improve the economy whatever fuel was being used.
 
big soft moose said:
looking arround the web the consensus of speculative opinion seems to be that they are added at the refinery after the tanker is loaded.

personally i have my doubts about that, because i can't see how you would sensibly add stuff to a loaded tanker, or how you would ensure thorough blending in those circumstances
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Agreed. I would have thought it would have been blended at source before being put into a tanker for delivery.
 
pepi1967 said:
Agreed. I would have thought it would have been blended at source before being put into a tanker for delivery.
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indeed - but that would mean that every tanker that fills up from those tanks/refinery has the same fuel.

Personally what i suspect happens is that the oil companies which own refineries each have a slightly different additive blend - so BP would differ from shell and so forth. However tesco, morrisons etc don't have refineries and just buy their furel on the open market with the supplier changing depending on who offers them the best deal.

(this also means that if someone finds morrisons fuel for example contaminated , it is likely that the contamination occured in the holding tanks at a particular garage (or in the fuel tank of your car) - unless of course the contamination is widespread as with the silicon in fuel thing a few years ago)

thus if they are currently buying their fuel from BP then the fuel at their pumps is indistinguisable from that at a BP garage, but different from that at a texaco or shell etc garage. In a few months time they might be selling soucing from shell and be different in additive content from a BP garage and so on.

If you think about it logically an oil company has labs and tecnicians etc to develop their own blend of additives to (supposedly) give their fuel a competitive edge. A supermarket chain doesnt have those facilities or expertise.
 
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TCR4x4 said:
Where do these additives come from? cos they sure as hell aren't kept on the tanker.
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Ok I am now doubting myself, it is many years since I was working in a petrol station, maybe they are added at source as others have said. I know it was always a discussion the tanker drivers and i had about the fuel and costs etc etc.
 
big soft moose said:
indeed - but that would mean that every tanker that fills up from those tanks/refinery has the same fuel.

Personally what i suspect happens is that the oil companies which own refineries each have a slightly different additive blend - so BP would differ from shell and so forth. However tesco, morrisons etc don't have refineries and just buy their furel on the open market with the supplier changing depending on who offers them the best deal.

thus if they are currently buying their fuel from BP then the fuel at their pumps is indistinguisable from that at a BP garage, but different from that at a texaco or shell etc garage. In a few months time they might be selling soucing from shell and be different in additive content from a BP garage and so on.
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Again as I said above it is a long time ago but all the tanker drivers said the additives were different between companies and certainly between supermarkets.
 
Davec223 said:
Again as I said above it is a long time ago but all the tanker drivers said the additives were different between companies and certainly between supermarkets.
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yeah they are different between companies - but the difference between supermarkets varies depending on who is buying fuel from where - if morrisons are sourcing from texaco, and tesco are sourcing from shell then their fuel won't be identical.
 
big soft moose said:
looking arround the web the consensus of speculative opinion seems to be that they are added at the refinery after the tanker is loaded.

personally i have my doubts about that, because i can't see how you would sensibly add stuff to a loaded tanker, or how you would ensure thorough blending in those circumstances
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There's only one set of storage tanks up here and tankers from all companies use it. The way the additives works (I believe) is that the driver of the tanker slots a smartcard into a terminal which carries details of the additives for that particular company and they are added as the tanker is filled. I could be wrong with that.
 
big soft moose said:
yeah they are different between companies - but the difference between supermarkets varies depending on who is buying fuel from where - if morrisons are sourcing from texaco, and tesco are sourcing from shell then their fuel won't be identical.
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Apparently the super markets have their own blend of additives to, ie tescos has their own, morrisons have their own, not down to how they buy off of.
 
DorsetDude said:
And how do you know this? Because BP adverts on the telly have said so maybe? Or have you taken independent samples to an industrial chemist for analysis? ;) My car runs perfectly fine wherever I get mine from is all I know so I get it from the cheapest lowest priced outlet within reasonable distance.
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VW used to suggest in their handbooks that about 1 in 8 fills were with 'premium' fuel (be it petrol or diesel, esso or shell, tesco or asda) as the higher octane content would help maintain engine life and performance.

Not sure if the new books still have this in
 
Steep said:
Add to the cost of cooking oil - the price of getting your injectors and heaters converted to run it, putting cooking oil in an unconverted engine will ruin it. The fuel duty (you have to pay duty if you use it as fuel).
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Only have to pay duty on anything over 2500 litres.


Can I make biodiesel and what is the Excise Duty on this?
If you produce 2,500 litres or more biofuels a year, or use 2,500 litres or more of biofuels as motor fuel on which duty has not been paid you must notify HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) of your intention to produce biodiesel.
 
big soft moose said:
yeah they are different between companies - but the difference between supermarkets varies depending on who is buying fuel from where - if morrisons are sourcing from texaco, and tesco are sourcing from shell then their fuel won't be identical.
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Just to confuse things even more, texaco buy from BP. I work in a texaco fuel yard, although my company deals with waste fuels, the yard is owned an run by a texaco distributor, they mainly deal with gas oil for heating, but do also supply diesel. . Their tanker picks up fuel from BP in Cardiff. Its then brought here and then re distributed around the local area. No additives are added in our yard, I know that much.

I'm a ADR qualified tanker driver and at no point have adding additives ever been mentioned. If it is done, then its certainly not the driver who is doing it. The driver pulls up to the loading bay, selects the correct fuels to load and loads it. Any mixing must be done before the loading stage. To me this seems unfeasible, as the amount of storage needed to hold all the different mixes for all the different companies would be huge.
 
Our Asda station this morning 1.31. Now don't get me wrong, still expensive, but a lot cheaper than some I've seen.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Just to confuse things even more, texaco buy from BP. I work in a texaco fuel yard, although my company deals with waste fuels, the yard is owned an run by a texaco distributor, they mainly deal with gas oil for heating, but do also supply diesel. . Their tanker picks up fuel from BP in Cardiff. Its then brought here and then re distributed around the local area. No additives are added in our yard, I know that much.

I'm a ADR qualified tanker driver and at no point have adding additives ever been mentioned. If it is done, then its certainly not the driver who is doing it. The driver pulls up to the loading bay, selects the correct fuels to load and loads it. Any mixing must be done before the loading stage. To me this seems unfeasible, as the amount of storage needed to hold all the different mixes for all the different companies would be huge.
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This just adds to my conviction that all this stuff about additives is utter marketing based twaddle.
 
DorsetDude said:
This just adds to my conviction that all this stuff about additives is utter marketing based twaddle.
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looking at the tesco website the only mention of additives is that "detergents etc are added as necessary at depots" their performance fuel momentum 99 is supposedly special because of the way is distilled not because of whats added to it.

however imo thats marketing spin, because when you check the spec sheet its pretty much the same as any other high octane performance fuel.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steep
Add to the cost of cooking oil - the price of getting your injectors and heaters converted to run it, putting cooking oil in an unconverted engine will ruin it.
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The fuel duty (you have to pay duty if you use it as fuel).
Only have to pay duty on anything over 2500 litres.
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Vegetable oil is thicker than diesel and places extra strain on the fuel pump.

Some fuel pumps can be damaged, others (on more basic engines) are fine.
Most basic diesel engines run perfectly well on a 50:50 mix, as long as the weather isn't too cold.


Can I make biodiesel and what is the Excise Duty on this?
If you produce 2,500 litres or more biofuels a year, or use 2,500 litres or more of biofuels as motor fuel on which duty has not been paid you must notify HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) of your intention to produce biodiesel.
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It's a worthwhile saving, even on a 50:50 mix
 
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Agreed.
 
Off topic but here goes.......

Supermarkets buy their fuels from the same refiners that are run by or supply the "branded" fuel stations. For example Asda may buy their fuel from BP, Tesco from Shell etc.

Supermarket fuel is just the basic product be it petrol or diesel, as far as I know, supermarkets don't offer "snake oil" fuel with special additives in. Tesco offer a 99 Octane fuel but unless you're running a highly strung/turbo'd engine, as long as the fuel meets the minimum 95 octane rating it'll make no difference.

For example, if you put 99 octane fuel in your 1.6 ford focus the engine management may change the timing a little but you won't get increased performance.

Supermarket fuel seems to have got a bad press but I think you could trace that back to when they first started selling it and their storage facilities weren't too good and the fuel would get contaminated with water and/or other crap that would kill your engine.

My old focus ran pretty much exclusively on Asda fuel from new for the 11 years I owned it. Think I put Shell in it once and it ran like a dog :lol:

A car club I belong to did some pretty scientific tests on a rolling road using different fuels on a turbo'd car. The 99 octane fuel did give a slight increase in performance but the main result was less pinking. They found a bigger factor on performance was the air intake temparature (but that's not the point here).

Anyway, back on topic...... I think they should start showing porn on fuel forecourts..... At least you get to watch other people being screwed while being screwed ;)

There's always a big thing made of a 3p drop in price overnight then very quietly the price creeps back up by over 4p.

I switched from a 1.8 petrol to a 2.0 diesel and I use approximately 2 gallons of fuel less per week and save approx £50-£60 per month. Still could do with some vasiline everytime I fill up though :lol:
 
I feel very lucky not to have to pay for my own fuel :)
 
viv1969 said:
I feel very lucky not to have to pay for my own fuel :)
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If you commuted 30 miles a day and allowing for weekends and holidays, thats equivalent to nearly a £1500 (1380) pay rise a year. I'd certainly take that.
(Based on my fag packet calculations roughly, assuming 40mpg and 1.40 a litre)
 
DorsetDude said:
If you commuted 30 miles a day and allowing for weekends and holidays, thats equivalent to nearly a £1500 (1380) pay rise a year. I'd certainly take that.
(Based on my fag packet calculations roughly, assuming 40mpg and 1.40 a litre)
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30 miles each way, so 60 miles a day, and currently paying around 1.32 for the fuel.
 
lizzy23 said:
i did my own lttle experiment and am getting around 75 miles more out of the shell petrol, than i was getting from morrisons cheapo at about a 1p a litre more, i've also noticed that it i use the supermarket stuff, it seems to be underpowered in some respects (now this may all be in my head) but the more miles to the tank is definately not
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I get the same results from my current car and got the same from my previous one too.

75 miles per tank more in my current car and 55 in my previous, although this car does have a larger tank. Doing 65 miles per day as I do, I see it as one day's free driving :lol:

Local independent Shell garage is never more than 1p per litre more than Tesco's, Morrisons etc and on some occasions can be cheaper.
 
AndrewA123 said:
I get the same results from my current car and got the same from my previous one too.

75 miles per tank more in my current car and 55 in my previous, although this car does have a larger tank. Doing 65 miles per day as I do, I see it as one day's free driving :lol:

Local independent Shell garage is never more than 1p per litre more than Tesco's, Morrisons etc and on some occasions can be cheaper.
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Unless you're brimming the tank and working out your actual MPG the figures are meaningless.........

Fuel gauges are pretty inaccurate and the mileage between each 1/4 of the tank will normally vary.
 
Russ77 said:
Unless you're brimming the tank and working out your actual MPG the figures are meaningless.........

Fuel gauges are pretty inaccurate and the mileage between each 1/4 of the tank will normally vary.
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yep, brimmed every time and calculated both manually and more recently logged using fuelly :thumbs:
 
AndrewA123 said:
yep, brimmed every time and calculated both manually and more recently logged using fuelly :thumbs:
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So the actual MPG was significantly different between the different fuels and can't be attributed to any other factors.

For example, on a clear run to work I which takes just over 30 mins I can get 45MPG, if there's lots of traffic and it takes upwards of 45 mins I'm lucky to get 38MPG.
 
Russ77 said:
So the actual MPG was significantly different between the different fuels and can't be attributed to any other factors.

For example, on a clear run to work I which takes just over 30 mins I can get 45MPG, if there's lots of traffic and it takes upwards of 45 mins I'm lucky to get 38MPG.
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Yes MPG was different. I cant attribute the differences to anything different (apart from fuel) over continual tanks. ie, anytime I drop to supermarket fuel I drop mpg and therefore miles per tank.

My drive to and from work is pretty much all dual carriage way so general driving on the same route, at same times and roughly the same traffic conditions, supermarket fuel has always produced in the region of 50 - 75 miles per tank difference (new car has larger tank so larger difference)

One of the guy's in the office didn't believe it until he tried it and after a few tanks of branded fuel found similar results with his P reg BMW 5 series diesel .
 
AndrewA123 said:
Yes MPG was different. I cant attribute the differences to anything different (apart from fuel) over continual tanks. ie, anytime I drop to supermarket fuel I drop mpg and therefore miles per tank.

My drive to and from work is pretty much all dual carriage way so general driving on the same route, at same times and roughly the same traffic conditions, supermarket fuel has always produced in the region of 50 - 75 miles per tank difference (new car has larger tank so larger difference)

One of the guy's in the office didn't believe it until he tried it and after a few tanks of branded fuel found similar results with his P reg BMW 5 series diesel .
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I still don't think the difference would be because some of the fuel came from a supermarket..... after all, it all comes from the same place ;)
 
Daryl said:
It maybe cheap to buy. But it's our greedy Government fleecing us on Tax. End of.

Drop the tax
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Or at least a goodly portion of it.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Vegetable oil is thicker than diesel and places extra strain on the fuel pump.

Some fuel pumps can be damaged, others (on more basic engines) are fine.
Most basic diesel engines run perfectly well on a 50:50 mix, as long as the weather isn't too cold.


It's a worthwhile saving, even on a 50:50 mix
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Some people put a heater in the fuel line to help it flow better.


Steve.
 
Daryl said:
It maybe cheap to buy. But it's our greedy Government fleecing us on Tax. End of.

Drop the tax
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A nice idea but if they dropped the tax on fuel it would be added somewhere else so we wouldn't end up any better off. Personally I think it's right to have it on an environmentally damaging product.

I actually think the tax should be higher in exchange for scrapping road tax then the amount you pay will be proportional to the amount you use the car.


Steve.
 
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