Off camera flash

Denis99

Denis99

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Denis
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Hi, I'm looking for some advice and would appreciate any feedback.

My main area of interest is an off camera flash system (one flash head for the moment) for mountain bike and speedway photography.

I've got a Canon 7D - but no flash head at the moment.

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I'm taking primarily mountain bike shots but getting quite heavy shadows from riders helmets and peaks etc. So I'm needing some good fill in flash.
Other times the areas are quite heavily shaded with heavy tree cover.

I've had a look through most of the forums posts on flash, but still confused.

Pocket Wizards seem the way to go, but I'm still torn on what (very) good flash to use.

I'd like to keep it simple in terms of operating the off camera flash.

Please can you give me some advice etc.
Budget is important, but I'd rather buy once and get a set up that I won't regret and suffer from upgraditus. Suppose I can stretch to £700 max, for a good system.
 
The obvious choice seems to be a 580EX, and then save a small fortune by using Elinchrom Skyports instead of PW's.... you then have the option of using it without the Skyports on dull days or indoors, which will give you full TTL or manual control by wireless...
 
If by Pocket Wizards you mean the TTL Flex/Mini ones you're not really leaving yourself much of a budget for a flashgun if you want "(very) good one", a new 430EXII is about your limit.

On the other hand, if you're referring to the Plus IIs then you'd have enough spare for a 580EXII, but you'd have to use it in manual mode.
 
Thanks, look like I'll have to revise my budget.

PW TTL Flex/Mini seems to be the best trigger system - I think even I could get them to work reliably (well I really do hope so).

Is there any advantage to not buying a 580 EX II and plumping for a Metz with remote set up?
 
The YN RF602 flash trigger set with one receiver ist available for around 30 GBP. Has no TTL capability but its very affordable and reliable as well.
 
Doesnt the 7d have built in wireless control of speedlite flashes ?
 
Nitram said:
Doesnt the 7d have built in wireless control of speedlite flashes ?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it doesn't work unless the line of sight is very good.

PW look the business though.
 
I have been to hell and back with wireless triggers...

For along time I had just the one flash and used the wireless system in my 7d as it has the rather significant advantage of letting you adjust flash power from the camera so you don't have to take a hike over the flash, which in turn leads to yourself not being able to achieve the composition you had desired before.

The wireless system is also great as it means you can still use your pop up flash as a secondary fill in flash and your external flash as your key light.

I then decided to go that extra mile and buy a second 430exII and some Seculine T2D receivers and a transmitter to hide my flashes behind trees, as I had heard great things about them for the price, turned out in my case they were no better than the YN RF602 ebay set and about 130quid more. After countless problems I complained to Bristol Cameras about the terrible battery life and poor reliability that I managed to get a refund for my nightmarish £184 spend and I am now back to the cameras wireless system.

I am weighing up the possibility of buying some Pdub Flex tt-5's, 3 for £450 from ebay but the luxury of not having to move to change flash powers is making the descision to spend £450 very hard, all that money just so I can hide my flashes and try new compositions at greater ease without worrying about whether the external flash can "see" the pop up flash.

Sadly composition is a major part in photography and I want to take my lighting set ups further in a sport where off camera flash is used a lot so spending £450 is almost a necessity.

Bottom line of my story... Buy some flashes (I reccomend 2, a 580exII as your predominant light, 430exII as your secondary light and then you pop up can be set between off and 1/4 power as a fill in) just now, set up your camera and flashes to work wirelessly together and master using that combination and if you feel a few months down the line that triggers are necessary because you are consistently being able to fire both external flashes in view of the pop up then that's the time to spend money on triggers, and I would be splashing on the Pdubs or if on a slight budget then the Elinchrom Skyports will work just aswell if a little more fiddly but please, steer clear of the Seculines!
 
skawt

Thanks, thats a great response - I'll take your advice and buy one 580exII as my first option , and probably get a second flash later (on review of the results).

Took photo's on both Saturday and Sunday, but had very dark shadows over the faces and torso of the riders due to a strong sun - shouldn't complain really , it won't last forever :-)
 
Yeah, the cameras wireless system certainly works very well with just the one flash, it doesn't need to be in perfect direct sight of the flash, it has some lee way but obviously still very restricting.

I wouldn't advise buying a trigger set with just the one flash when you have that system on your camera, if you want to use the camera portraitwise however the flash has to be on the same side of the user as the pop up flash is, I will try and find some examples of mine taken with just one external flash and the cameras wireless system.
 
4596673446_07cd95905d.jpg


4304006914_fce8de5e73.jpg


This was taken with two flashes but it was still done with the cameras wireless system, I should also add its a great way to learn about setting up the power of your flashes in different situations as you can change things so quickly...

4373435137_79d58aa266.jpg
 
There are lots of ways of doing it. All have their pros and cons, and a lot depends on what you want to do, where you're doing it, your prefered way of working, and your budget. You could easily spend a lot of money and either waste most of it or even end up with something that doesn't work very well (even auto-TTL Pocket Wizards have problems).

So I would suggests you start with the basics and move forward in stages, according to how you get on.

I don't think you can go wrong with a 430EXII regardless. It's a powerful gun, closer to the 580EXII than advertised, cheaper, and you don't need the 580's master facility. Most of all, it doesn't radiate nasty RF - see later. Master it remotely in E-TTL with your 7D. If that works (potential line of sight issues outdoors?) then that's great. Add a second flash and that should work too.

If it doesn't work reliably, then you might be able to fix it with a long dedicated cord, 10m for about £40 if that's long enough and doesn't get in the way. If that works, get a 580EXII and stick that on the end of the cord and use that to master the 430 as a second head.

If that's not an option, then the best E-TTL radio triggers are the Pocket Wizards. They are wonderful things, do lots of trick sync stuff that could be useful for you (that even Canon cannot match). But they're expensive and the US spec ones have major difficulties with RF interference affecting range badly. You can get around this with various crude fixes (or pay extra for the flash to be modded internally) but the 430EXII seems to be largely immune from the problem and that in itself is a pretty good reason to get one in preference to the 580. Check this out from Rob Galbraith - there is a lot of vital reading on PWs on that site http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10050-10598

The Euro spec PWs work on a slightly different frequency and are said to have less RF interference problems than the US models, but I don't know how true that is. I guess you need to be sure, maybe PW themselves could tell you. Either way, the 430 seems like a safe bet.

Alternatively, RadioPoppers are the only other E-TTL radio triggers that I know of and they appear to work well - completely different frequency. But not for sale here I don't think. Not sure they do a Euro-legal version yet.

Cheaper option is manual radio triggers like the Yongnuo RF-602. They are cheap and I think as good as anything else out there. Your max x-sync though will drop to 1/200sec at best. If that's a problem, then I think the only radio triggers that don't hit your x-sync speed are the basic (manual only) Pocket Wizard PlusII. (The newer auto-TTL PWs can actually increase x-sync - maybe up to 1/400sec with Hypersync on a 7D which would be cool for mountain bikes :thumbs: )

Sorry to go on. Lots of options. It can get complicated. One step at a time. Have a bash with a 430EXII :)
 
Adam Duckworth does very good workshops. You might have seen him on The Flash Centre stand at the Focus show. Top bloke. More about technique than equipment and I know what he'll say there - switch to manual and use Pocket Wizard PlusII http://photoworkshop.moonfruit.com/#

Which makes me think that's maybe the way to go. It will work, anywhere, at full x-sync speed, reliably, and that's what you want.

The advanages of E-TTL are wonderful, but essentially what it allows you to do is set up very quickly, get good results first time, it will moderate the exposure instantly if things change, and you can control everything from the camera.

But if you have time to set up manually, and the subject doesn't change much - ie bikes come through in roughly the same place, at the same distance - then you really won't be making the most of E-TTL anyway.

So a couple of PWs, that will work with any old flash you like, would do the job fine. To save cash, you could try the RF-602. As far as I can see the only drawback with those is the slight reduction in x-sync. I've got five and sold my PWs. That's an individual thing, it might not matter and you might want to drag the shutter a bit anyway for some speedy/blurry effects.
 
For manual 'go' radio triggers, the main issue that seems to occur (in my experience over years) with cheaper radio triggers is that flashes that are placed in the (cheap) hot shoe often get dodgy connections due to the hot shoes being basically a cheap piece of metal instead of the rock solid connection that you get between a camera hot shoe and the flash.

TTL cords tend to have a better shoe than radio triggers, so putting one of those between the flash and the trigger can be a solution, albeit a messy one.

I've finally given up touching the hot shoes at all and will now only use flashes with a screwlock pc-sync port, and have some cables that go screwlock pc-sync to 3.5mm (headphone jack), and have headphone jack sockets on my trigger recievers. Even with cheap radio triggers (albeit with decent batteries in them - makes a big difference), this provides a very reliable solution that I can finally rely on for work, whereas before and with the hot shoe connections, or dodgy cheap non locking pc sync connections, the setup just wasn't at all reliable and frankly not at all suited to professional photography.

HoppyUK's got it right, some pw's and flashes with pc sync jacks is a very good way to go, however I would urge everyone to have at least one TTL capable flash per body, and even moreso for you because for run and gun non-MTB shots, you can use the built in commander for wireless TTL.

pocket wizards tend to be £100 second hand per unit, or £135 from onestop digital... the rf602's are very well rated, and even (after modification) the cheaper old ebay style triggers are pretty reliable over shortish distances.
 
If you're gonna go manual, don't waste your money on pocket wizards. The RF-602 triggers are rock solid, never had a misfire or had one with a dodgy hotshoe that the flash couldn't see - although they also have screwlock ports that you can plug a cable into with a regular screwlock sync plug on the other end to go directly into the speedlight that way (which I do when using the SB-900 on the Interfit Strobies XS bracket).
 
Why is everyone recommending expensive Canon flashes? Get some old Nikon SB24, SB26 or SB28's or Sekonic 285's, PW Plus II's and you're set.
 
They're recommending Canon flashes because he has a pretty substantial budget, and may require TTL.
 
Thanks for all the responses, its helped.

Got a 580 ex II and have started to use it.

Probably learning more by not getting it quite right, reading quite a bit on line and getting some inspiration from the leading photographers on line images.

For now, the 7D with one flash will do, whilst I learn better technique.
 
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