Off camera flash advice

Neil.

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Neil
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Hi,
I’m looking to try my hand at using off camera flash to photograph a new grandchild & would appreciate any thoughts you may have.

I’ve got a Canon R5 ii and a Canon 580 ex ii flash. The flash has had little use, so I’m keen to use this if possible.
It seems I could use radio triggers to achieve this, but would need to buy a transmitter & receiver ? Godox or similar ?

At the moment I’m thinking of a one flash set up. Would I face compatibility problems if I stuck with my Canon flash ?
Would it be better to sell it and start again ?

I don’t mind spending a little, but may look to get a modifier & stand, so want to keep the budget under control. The newer Canon flashes look too expensive for me.

Has anyone experience of using this combination, or any suggestions.

Thanks,
Neil.
 
Your assumptions are correct, as I see it you have 3 choices:

Keep your 580 and buy a transmitter and receiver (the receivers are becoming less readily available), Godox would be my choice, but other options are available. Cost around £100

Sell the 580 and buy a Godox flash and trigger. This could be less than £100 depending what you can sell the flash for

Ignore the speedlight and buy a proper mains powered head and transmitter, This is what I’d do, if for no other reason than it’s easiest. Cost £100 - £150, much cheaper 2nd hand, but you need to know what to buy.

To all of the above, you’ll need to add a stand and a bracket and brolly at least (no bracket for the mains flash)
I’d go softbox rather than brolly.
 
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Your assumptions are correct, as I see it you have 3 choices:

Keep your 580 and buy a transmitter and receiver (the receivers are becoming less readily available), Godox would be my choice, but other options are available. Cost around £100

Sell the 580 and buy a Godox flash and trigger. This could be less than £100 depending what you can sell the flash for

Ignore the speedlight and buy a proper mains powered head and transmitter, This is what I’d do, if for no other reason than it’s easiest. Cost £100 - £150, much cheaper 2nd hand, but you need to know what to buy.

To all of the above, you’ll need to add a stand and a bracket and brolly at least (no bracket for the mains flash)
I’d go softbox rather than brolly.
its the what to buy part that tends to be the biggest hurdle. Theres so many videos and views out there that all seem to recommend different solutions. Many based on the "creators" personal circumstances.
 
its the what to buy part that tends to be the biggest hurdle. Theres so many videos and views out there that all seem to recommend different solutions. Many based on the "creators" personal circumstances.
Put any two photographers into a room together, or in this forum, ask a gear or a technical question and you'll get at least 3 conflicting answers:) But, they'll be honest answers that conflict only because the individuals have different experiences and different specialities. If you try to get your info from videos, the recommendations will usually - not always - be because the presenters are paid to deceive people.

Let's address your current challenge - photographing a new grandchild that, like all new babies, is beautiful and which doesn't need any special lighting techniques.
Even using your flashgun on camera (the worst possible place to put it) will be more than good enough as long as the flash is indirect - bounce it off the ceiling, or bounce it off the white wall behind you, just don't have it pointing directly at your subject. You could do better, but that arrangement is so simple and so foolproof that pretty much every shot will be a winner.

But, if you want to get a different flash, although there are a lot of different options available, the sad reality is that Godox has a monopoly on flash, so they are the obvious choice. The good thing about that situation is that all types/models of flash can be controlled from the same flash trigger/remote, but they've made a simple process extremely complex, with their never-ending array of menus and sub-menus, so unless you're using their gear a lot you may struggle to use it intuitively - I certainly do. And their products are becoming increasingly complex and expensive, they used to be a value brand, but that's now in the past.

Phil's suggestion of a mains-powered flash head is something that I can agree with - cheap, simple and very versatile, and by far the best choice if you start shooting serious portraits, products, still-life subjects and similar, although most of us often include a flashgun as an extra light too
 
its the what to buy part that tends to be the biggest hurdle. Theres so many videos and views out there that all seem to recommend different solutions. Many based on the "creators" personal circumstances.
but the ‘what to buy’ is driven by’what exactly do you want to do?’

@Neil. has told us what he has, and asking if he should keep it or buy something else. If he comes back and says what he wants to achieve, he’ll get more specific advice.

But it’s impossible to give specific advice where there’s no actual question.

I’ve given entire Amazon shopping lists for specific needs on the past, but we’re not at that stage yet in this thread.
 
I think you need to decide what your lighting goal is; i.e. what kind of lighting/images you want to create.

My guess is you want to create "soft" light and a "natural" look... and speedlights aren't a great choice for that. In that situation, and given what you have, I would just mount the speedlight on-camera and point it at the ceiling behind me. The point is to essentially turn a smaller room into a light tent. This will work pretty well in almost any situation in a house... i.e. regardless of where the child is or what they are doing.

As the child gets older and you just want to record their activities, then off camera flash becomes problematic. But you might want more dramatic type pictures... i.e. 1 or 2 light studio type portraits. At that time it might be worth inversting in proper strobes/softboxes/stands/etc.

Edit: I should have read Garry's answer fully before posting...
 
You can buy a cheap transmitter and reciever sets off ebay for around £25, I had one for a few years before I bought a better one. To be fair it worked a treat. Ok you only had manual flash (no ettl) but thats wasn't an issue for me. The range worked up to at least 50 feet no problems outdoors. Battery life was great.
If it's only trying the water it's a cheap way to find out if you like the effect.
The set I bought had one transmitter and two receivers and a spare battery.
 
Thanks everybody for your input, I've quite a bit to learn about this.

My aim is to be able to produce nicely lit portraits of the little one as a baby & as he grows. I don't see myself becoming a 'serious' portrait photographer, but who knows, that might change. With that in mind, I had been thinking of using a speedlight because I already have one, and for portability, but I note what has been said about strobes being another option.

I've tried some shots today using the flash on camera with a diffuser attached and didn't think the results were too bad for a first try. Plenty to work on, with exposure, posing & background etc. & decide where to go next with this.
This is an example from today.

061A9779 - Version 2-SharpenAI-Softness by Neil, on Flickr
 
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Not bad at all, you should be happy with this result, which supports my view that even the worst type of flash, fitted in the worst possible place, on camera, and pointed directly at the subject, again the worst choice, is good enough for photographing young babies that don't need flattering lighting.

So, keep at it, but try bouncing the light from the ceiling and/or from a wall behind you, for much better results. And spend your spare cash on your grandson, you don't need more gear at this point:)
 
This is an example from today.
Perfectly fine...

However, it is quite apparent that the flash only contributed a little bit of fill. I.e. the room was bright enough, and the camera settings good enough, that the flash was at a very low output and didn't add a lot (if anything). There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the flash for fill, it's one of the better options for a speedlight. But you do need to be aware that it primarily wasn't the flash that gave this result.
 
Just seen this. Im going to blatantly point you to a question about some triggers and flashes I am planning to sell and have used over the years.
Im hoping the mods don't mind and I am NOT trying to sell directly, more raising awareness as I will at some point put this for sale on the forum and anyone else here can contribute to what they think is a fair price.


Additionally, I used these last year for a home "photoshoot" of my grandaughters 1st birthday and was very pleased.

Link to my flickr shots using the flash for this is here --> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBU1Tv

Just one example

Aoife at One-3 by Donnie Canning, on Flickr
 
Perfectly fine...

However, it is quite apparent that the flash only contributed a little bit of fill. I.e. the room was bright enough, and the camera settings good enough, that the flash was at a very low output and didn't add a lot (if anything). There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the flash for fill, it's one of the better options for a speedlight. But you do need to be aware that it primarily wasn't the flash that gave this result.
You're right of course, but if Neil had (for example) stopped down 3 or 4 stops and had bounced the flash from the ceiling then the result would have been very similar, but without the very shallow dof potentially causing a problem, so the gear still isn't an issue.
 
You're right of course, but if Neil had (for example) stopped down 3 or 4 stops and had bounced the flash from the ceiling then the result would have been very similar, but without the very shallow dof potentially causing a problem, so the gear still isn't an issue.
Yes, bounced would have looked very similar... that was part of my point.
The look is nice and about what I would want, but it wasn't because of the flash. And if Neil wanted the same type of look with the flash primary (due to lack of light), it wouldn't have worked the way it was used.
 
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Thanks everybody for your input, I've quite a bit to learn about this.

My aim is to be able to produce nicely lit portraits of the little one as a baby & as he grows. I don't see myself becoming a 'serious' portrait photographer, but who knows, that might change. With that in mind, I had been thinking of using a speedlight because I already have one, and for portability, but I note what has been said about strobes being another option.

I've tried some shots today using the flash on camera with a diffuser attached and didn't think the results were too bad for a first try. Plenty to work on, with exposure, posing & background etc. & decide where to go next with this.
This is an example from today.

061A9779 - Version 2-SharpenAI-Softness by Neil, on Flickr
I have to agree with Garry on 2 counts here.
1. That’s a lovely shot, does what you wanted and you should be pleased.

2. But I’m not sure it’s helping on your flash learning. Because it appears to be largely lit by the ambient.

The problem with ‘a diffuser attached’ is that they can lead to a false sense of security, as others have said.

There is another way of looking at ‘learning portraiture’ though, you don’t need flash, there are many great portraits shot in ambient light, Jane Bown is a great photographer to study for that.

But arguably, once you’ve learned to control flash, you learn see ambient light more clearly.

And the 2 absolutes to base your approach when learning to light are:

There’s only 1 sun, and it’s in the sky; so all lighting starts with the principal of one key light.

When you’re controlling the light, you’re not manipulating the highlights, it’s the shadows you’re aiming to control.
 
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I had another look at my photos and flashgun last night. I had the flash set up wrongly so although it was firing, as has been said on the thread, it was providing little illumination.
I’m more familiar with it now so will see how I get on next time & will try bouncing as suggested.
Thanks again.
 
As nearly always, we’ve gone way off-topic here, but I think that’s a good thing.
I have to agree with Garry on 2 counts here.
1. That’s a lovely shot, does what you wanted and you should be pleased.

2. But I’m not sure it’s helping on your flash learning. Because it appears to be largely lit by the ambient.

The problem with ‘a diffuser attached’ is that they can lead to a false sense of security, as others have said.

There is another way of looking at ‘learning portraiture’ though, you don’t need flash, there are many great portraits shot in ambient light, Jane Bown is a great photographer to study for that.

But arguably, once you’ve learned to control flash, you learn see ambient light more clearly.

And the 2 absolutes to base your approach when learning to light are:

There’s only 1 sun, and it’s in the sky; so all lighting starts with the principal of one key light.

When you’re controlling the light, you’re not manipulating the highlights, it’s the shadows you’re aiming to control.

Yes, that’s good advice, you may remember that I posted it in 2008 and you’ve quoted it at least once a week ever since:)

Our approach to lighting has changed a lot since those days. Back then, most people bought lighting kits 2, 3 or 4-head kits, mainly because sellers made more money by selling kits than individual lights, and sadly most people believed that more was better, when the reality is the opposite, and they expressed that belief by always using as many lights as they had available. And, just to make matters worse, there was a (horrible) “Venture” obsession with shooting everything against a pure white background, the background, which was usually an oversized softbox, was always far too bright, all fine edge detail was destroyed as a result, and there were no shadows at all.

So, although nobody except @Phil V listened, I tried to get people to understand that, on this planet at least, there’s there’s only one sun and it’s usually well above us. Use just one light, have it fairly high and use it, not to create light, but to create the right shadows in the right places, and it’s hard to take a bad shot, nearly all of the time.

If that one light isn’t enough, add a reflector to fill in shadows that are too dramatic. Reflectors are good because, apart from costing little or nothing, the laws of physics stop the reflected light from being anywhere near as bright as the light from the actual flash.

And, if the reflector doesn’t deal with the problem, then add a second light, but only if strictly necessary, and make sure that it’s the key light that does at least 80% of the heavy lifting, the extra light should never be intrusive, otherwise we end up on a different planet with more than one sun . . .

Rinse and repeat if absolutely necessary, adding more lights if you need to, but only if they are really needed, and add them one at a time, never start off any shot with more than one light.

But, let’s go back a bit, we start off by deciding what the photo should show, so the emotional/artistic elements, which are the most important, come first. This includes deciding which shadows are wanted, and where.

At that point, we know where the camera will be, in terms of angle, tilt, distance and height, all of which make a massive difference.

Once that’s done it’s easy to work out where to put the light.

And, IMO, these “rules” apply to every shot, regardless of subject.
Phil understands all this perfectly well, mainly because he has many years of experience, but he's also had the disadvantage of seeing me work once or twice and no doubt has worked alongside others, and it's always good to see how other people do things - sadly, although we all gain from working alongside other people, it's getting more and more difficult to do so, and it's also getting harder to learn because most of us now rely on the web for info, and most of what's out there is nonsense.
I had another look at my photos and flashgun last night. I had the flash set up wrongly so although it was firing, as has been said on the thread, it was providing little illumination.
I’m more familiar with it now so will see how I get on next time & will try bouncing as suggested.
Thanks again.

Yes, the flash didn’t do a lot in this first shot – user error – but the principles apply. The point that I was trying to make, perhaps badly, is that although gear has its place, there’s no need to obsess about which bit of gear we should buy, for this kind of shot the right gear is the gear that we already have, what matters far more is an understanding of the purpose of light.

Right now, Neil has the best and the easiest subject there is. All that he needs is food, 12 nappies a day, and warmth. He doesn’t move around and always looks perfect. In a few months he will be a bit harder to photograph, and eventually he may need a more complex approach and possibly a bit more gear, but for now, let’s keep it simple.
 
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