Not the parents fault

[mikew]

Or is it

A report from the education watchdog warns some young children have forgotten how to use a knife and fork or have regressed back to nappies.
The Department for Education says it shows the need to keep schools open.

 

[nilagin]

Or is it

A report from the education watchdog warns some young children have forgotten how to use a knife and fork or have regressed back to nappies.
The Department for Education says it shows the need to keep schools open.

Too many takeaways. ( Curries)

 

[lindsay]

I'm not a parent, but is this really why schools are needed? Maybe they should be more specific - do they mean nurseries? I wasn't taught how to teach eating skills or nappy-changing at teacher training college. But then that was in a very different era.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I am a parent. TBH this is staggering: it's as though people have lost their minds and culture.

 

[stevewestern]

I am a parent. TBH this is staggering: it's as though people have lost their minds and culture.

I too am a parent, and used to be a volunteer at a primary school where some of the children had to be taught how to use a knife and fork. Seems too many parents are too busy with their shiny new phones to cook for their children or sit and eat with their children who end up in front of the television shoveling in macdonalds or kfc.
It also amazed me how many children came to school with shoes that were falling apart yet their mums had (did I already mention) shiny iphones that most of us couldn't afford.
I won't start on reading or even looking at books but..... one of the greatest pleasures I got when in school was sitting with a child and reading a story. It was also one of the saddest things.

 

[Gremlin]

When the schools were closed during the original lockdown a local woman was upset because she had a visit from the local
SPCOs,
Her neighbours had complained about her daughter running around and causing a nuisance, knocking on doors etc.
I mentioned that daytimes were supposed to be for home schooling, reply was "we don't have time and she gets bored,
we can't afford the internet of a laptop/tablet "

Both parents smoke, he drives around on a top of the range mobility scooter, huge thing and yes he can walk into the shops

What chance do these kids have when the parents don't care

 

[woof woof]

I am a parent. TBH this is staggering: it's as though people have lost their minds and culture.

There are too many distractions for parents these days, cannabis, premium strength lager, facebook, so they can't be expected to raise their own children, that's the states job.

 

[sirch]

When I was at primary school a long time ago there were kids who would sometimes come into school with notes saying things like "Johnny couldn't come into school last week because he had no shoes", I know this because the teachers use to read the notes out loud to the whole class. It was ever thus, there is nothing to stop people who are struggling to cope with life from having kids and it's all too easy to force people into sh!t housing, make them work in soul destroying jobs, offer them no support and them blame them for failing their children when all they have to learn from is their own struggling parents and those around them.

 

[tijuana taxi]

I am a parent. TBH this is staggering: it's as though people have lost their minds and culture.

More like too lazy and thick as a plank.

Something is going badly wrong with for want of a better word the underclass.
Huge estates where a large number don't work or travel, live in a practically closed society and to put it frankly are all shagging each other.
This invariably leads to an accidental interbreeding problem, the family tree would look like something from a spirograph.

Its a taboo thing to mention, but the problem exists, only got to look and listen to realise that.
A school head (I think in Hull) mentioned it and was quickly silenced, it needs accepting and dealing with (no idea how though).
Many of these young parents and their children are educationally subnormal, some don't look right physically either.

 

[sirch]

he drives around on a top of the range mobility scooter, huge thing and yes he can walk into the shops

I've have had injuries where I could walk for about 20 minutes before the pain got so bad I had to stop. It's not a binary thing, "can walk" or "can't walk" there is everything in between.

 

[nilagin]

When the schools were closed during the original lockdown a local woman was upset because she had a visit from the local
SPCOs,
Her neighbours had complained about her daughter running around and causing a nuisance, knocking on doors etc.
I mentioned that daytimes were supposed to be for home schooling, reply was "we don't have time and she gets bored,
we can't afford the internet of a laptop/tablet "

Both parents smoke, he drives around on a top of the range mobility scooter, huge thing and yes he can walk into the shops

What chance does these kids have when the parents don't care

Sadly for some people, kids are just a means of income. Spend as little on the kids and the rest on themselves. It's not even unusual for kids starting in reception to still be wearing nappies.

 

[Diving Pete]

When I was at primary school a long time ago there were kids who would sometimes come into school with notes saying things like "Johnny couldn't come into school last week because he had no shoes", I know this because the teachers use to read the notes out loud to the whole class. It was ever thus, there is nothing to stop people who are struggling to cope with life from having kids and it's all too easy to force people into sh!t housing, make them work in soul destroying jobs, offer them no support and them blame them for failing their children when all they have to learn from is their own struggling parents and those around them.

Thats a really interesting viewpoint

 

[stevewestern]

The best thing that's happened in my life was to become a parent. We have lost out on income as we wanted to spend time with our kids.
I have no pension and no savings (not just because of this), but I have 2 wonderful girls who bring SO much love and pleasure into my life. I struggle to understand how people can have children and not feel this way.

 

[tijuana taxi]

Sadly for some people, kids are just a means of income. Spend as little on the kids and the rest on themselves. It's not even unusual for kids starting in reception to still be wearing nappies.

This issue concerns me with the dinners in school holiday scheme, more to the point are the kids getting them.
I remember when milk vouchers were issued the shop on the tower block estate near me exchanged them for anything.
It needs to be an actual dinner otherwise these parasites will find ways to spend it on other things

 

[Gremlin]

I've have had injuries where I could walk for about 20 minutes before the pain got so bad I had to stop. It's not a binary thing, "can walk" or "can't walk" there is everything in between.

I appreciate that, had the same problem myself a while ago, I suppose he needs it to get to the sjops for
his supply of fags, wife seems to carry most of the shopping home after work.
Why can't he spend time educating his daughter rather then letting her run riot ?

 

[Tigger.ufo]

I appreciate that, had the same problem myself a while ago, I suppose he needs it to get to the sjops for
his supply of fags, wife seems to carry most of the shopping home after work.
Why can't he spend time educating his daughter rather then letting her run riot ?

He could but chooses not to ... best I don't write any more!!!

 

[woof woof]

When I was at primary school a long time ago there were kids who would sometimes come into school with notes saying things like "Johnny couldn't come into school last week because he had no shoes", I know this because the teachers use to read the notes out loud to the whole class. It was ever thus, there is nothing to stop people who are struggling to cope with life from having kids and it's all too easy to force people into sh!t housing, make them work in soul destroying jobs, offer them no support and them blame them for failing their children when all they have to learn from is their own struggling parents and those around them.

I think you're being very kind there. There was a kid at my school I felt sorry for. He was a nice lad and I knocked about with him but unfortunately he stunk to high heaven, he and his clothes were utterly filthy, he had wax coming out of his ears etc and it was uncomfortable sitting next to him. He was bullied and abused pretty much every day. The problem was that his single parent mam was an alcoholic and in his words not mine just didn't care.

I'm sure there are some parents who are too busy in soul destroying jobs to do as well as they'd like with their kids but some would still mostly ignore their kids no matter how much spare time they have. Others may be incapable because of impairment of some sort. The rest and IMO the vast majority will be people who live what I'll describe as chaotic or alternative lifestyles, in work or not. I've known any number of these.

 

[Gremlin]

This issue concerns me with the dinners in school holiday scheme, more to the point are the kids getting them.
I remember when milk vouchers were issued the shop on the tower block estate near me exchanged them for anything.
It needs to be an actual dinner otherwise these parasites will find ways to spend it on other things

Same as I've seen people coming out of food donation places with bag of goods assessing what the could sell them
and complaining if there wasn't anything of value.
I don't remember meals being provided for kids during school holidays before this pandemic ?

 

[JohnX]

You all are making the argument for absolute population control. No licence, no children.

You get a licence by proving you will make good parents, will have no more than the state says, and can afford children without recourse to outside assistance.

 

[woof woof]

You all are making the argument for absolute population control. No licence, no children.

Having children is a basic right but two things worry me. Firstly that the childrens lives are affected and they could copy their parents indifference and continue in the same way with future generations and that every penny and resource feckless folk suck out of the system could be going to someone in real need who truly can't look after themselves or their children for genuine reasons.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

used to be a volunteer at a primary school where some of the children had to be taught how to use a knife and fork.

Why is the use of a knife and fork relevant to a child's education? At a guess, the use of knife and fork in a particular way is limited to a minority of British households. I am sure there are many more important areas of behaviour that need addressing for some children.

 

[bass_junkie83]

This is my view on schooling, pretty much shared by my primary teacher wife.

Educating your children, particularly at a primary level is the responsibility of the parents, there is nothing up to key stage 2 that should be beyond any adult (learning difficulties aside).
The purpose of schools is two fold. Firstly to provide a good quality of teaching to kids, although knowing the subject matter is easy enough for parents actually teaching this to kids is a skill in itself. And secondly it is to provide child care so that parents can work and do what they need to do to support their families, in the absence of both work and school, parents should be using their time to educate their kids, but this isn't possible in our society, for most of us not working isn't an option.

Although the bulk of kids education is at school, their learning should not be limited to 8:30-3:30 Monday to Friday. Parents need to be supplementing this outside of school hours, but this seems to be where things start to fall apart. There are many parents that don't think like this, they believe that educating their kids is the responsibility of the school only, if school isn't on then they don't need to be taught anything.

My daughter started school this year. Entering reception she was expected to be able to be able to recognise her own name, count to 10, recognise numbers and letters, dress herself, use a knife and fork, go to the toilet herself. To be honest all this we thought was almost insultingly simple.
At my wife's school which is in a very different area, there are virtually no expectations, because they know they will not be met. Children start school wearing nappies (she has some in her year 5 class that still use them!), they don't even own cutlery at home so can't use it at school, their parents have never bought them books, let alone read to them. In their mind this is all jobs for teachers, so I can't say any of this comes as a surprise.

 

[stevewestern]

Why is the use of a knife and fork relevant to a child's education? At a guess, the use of knife and fork in a particular way is limited to a minority of British households. I am sure there are many more important areas of behaviour that need addressing for some children.

Education is about preparing a child for adult life. Using a knife and fork is part of that. It wasn't about holding them in a 'certain way' just holding them and using them to transport food from a plate to a mouth. Sadly there are parents that are too busy to do their part of it.

 

[woof woof]

Why is the use of a knife and fork relevant to a child's education? At a guess, the use of knife and fork in a particular way is limited to a minority of British households. I am sure there are many more important areas of behaviour that need addressing for some children.

In most households school age children eat with their fingers then? Are school age children who don't need nappies a minority too?

(Almost) Unbelievable. I'd prefer to believe you had your tongue firmly in cheek when you posted this.

 

[lindsay]

Education is not really about preparing a child for adult life, any more than it is about equipping them to do a job later on.
It is about teaching them how to learn for themselves, by inculcating learning skills and imbibing core knowledge on which they can build according to their aptitude and inclination; it is about developing their social skills by placing them in supervised social situations that have behavioural boundaries, so that they learn how to behave responsibly and considerately with other people.

If they succeed at school, they are equipped to take a place in society and have the ability to be trained for a job. Exams don't measure this, so govt is as much to blame as poor parents, by putting so much emphasis on SATs and league tables in the last 20 years or so.

What school should not be about is child care and surrogate parenting. The fact that it often is nowadays is why so many children of "inadequate" parents fail to achieve a fulfilling positive role in society and in work.

 

[Tringa]

The free meals during holidays is interesting.

If the government's criteria indicate a child is entitled to free school meals in term time, then how come they are not entitled during the holidays?

The parents do not suddenly become more prosperous when a term ends.

Alternatively, if you really cannot afford to feed your child/children should you have any?

I know there will be changes of circumstance beyond the control of the parents(and quite possibly especially now) that mean they can't provide for their kids but there are also situations where the parents have not helped themselves.

An article on local TV news a few years ago was about the poor state of repair and upkeep in a block of flats in SE London. A single parent with three children was interviewed in her one bedroomed flat, which was pretty grotty. She said she was waiting to be rehoused and had lived in the flat for five years, but two of her children were obviously well under school age.

Dave

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I'd prefer to believe you had your tongue firmly in cheek when you posted this.

Not in the least. Some of our citizens come from societies where eating with the fingers is politeness personified. Some from societies where the use of 2 sticks or a spoon is the correct manner of behaviour. More and more citizens have chosen to copy the popular American habit of using a fork only. There are many other ways of consuming food which do not follow the Victorian affectation of holding a knife in the right hand and a fork in the left hand.

 

[Peter123]

I think tha

The free meals during holidays is interesting.

If the government's criteria indicate a child is entitled to free school meals in term time, then how come they are not entitled during the holidays?

The parents do not suddenly become more prosperous when a term ends.

Alternatively, if you really cannot afford to feed your child/children should you have any?

I know there will be changes of circumstance beyond the control of the parents(and quite possibly especially now) that mean they can't provide for their kids but there are also situations where the parents have not helped themselves.

An article on local TV news a few years ago was about the poor state of repair and upkeep in a block of flats in SE London. A single parent with three children was interviewed in her one bedroomed flat, which was pretty grotty. She said she was waiting to be rehoused and had lived in the flat for five years, but two of her children were obviously well under school age.

Dave

I think that councils had been given funding to deal with this but had spent it elsewhere. ( I read that on the internet so it must be true).

 

[Box Brownie]

Not in the least. Some of our citizens come from societies where eating with the fingers is politeness personified. Some from societies where the use of 2 sticks or a spoon is the correct manner of behaviour. More and more citizens have chosen to copy the popular American habit of using a fork only. There are many other ways of consuming food which do not follow the Victorian affectation of holding a knife in the right hand and a fork in the left hand.

Granted cultural influences in modern day families persist and from that perspective the schools need to know and appreciate, where age appropriate, the family environment of that child.

Having said that, the US habit of just using a fork I understand has its origins (unless this is just 'folklore'?) in the days when owning a sharp knife was none too common and the one knife sharp enough to cut the beef stakes was handed round the group eating to cut up their meat to fork sized chunks. In the 21st Century (let alone the C20 or earlier), the transferring of food from plate to mouth still needs that fork and knifes are surely still provided even if only used US style to cut the meat up on the plate.

So, yes maybe the 'must used knife and fork properly is too prescriptive' but not without good foundation???

 

[bass_junkie83]

Not in the least. Some of our citizens come from societies where eating with the fingers is politeness personified. Some from societies where the use of 2 sticks or a spoon is the correct manner of behaviour. More and more citizens have chosen to copy the popular American habit of using a fork only. There are many other ways of consuming food which do not follow the Victorian affectation of holding a knife in the right hand and a fork in the left hand.

You are right, there are minority cases where eating with other implements is the norm. I can happily say that at 4 years old my daughter can eat with chop sticks just as well as she can with a knife and fork.
But this is not what we are talking about here, being able to use cutlery is an indicator of the effort put into children by their parents. White English kids that go home after school and have burger and chips in a polystyrene box for dinner every night, who's packed lunch is a wrapped up half a burger and cold chips from the night before aren't shunning knives and forks because they have decided to identify as Chinese, it is because they have lazy good for nothing parents.

 

[broc]

When I was at primary school a long time ago there were kids who would sometimes come into school with notes saying things like "Johnny couldn't come into school last week because he had no shoes", I know this because the teachers use to read the notes out loud to the whole class. It was ever thus, there is nothing to stop people who are struggling to cope with life from having kids and it's all too easy to force people into sh!t housing, make them work in soul destroying jobs, offer them no support and them blame them for failing their children when all they have to learn from is their own struggling parents and those around them.

The senior management at the secondary school where I worked as IT network manager would regularly pay for uniforms and shoes for some of the less fortunate kids at the school. They would tell our bursar to issue school uniforms and they would pay her. We also implemented a biometric cashless school lunch payment system so that it was not obvious who was in receipt of free school meals as there is sadly some stigma attached to kids that receive them.

The school was in a village that was in the Durham coalfield area, one of the most highly deprived areas in the country. Many of the students were from families that were 3rd generation long term unemployed. Sadly these children had little hope for their future, having seen parents & grandparents who had lost hope before them. What was soul destroying for the staff was knowing how few of the students had any ambition or saw any value in their education.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

it is because they have lazy good for nothing parents.

There have always been people who aren't suitable as parents but there's no socially acceptable way for dealing with them. It is just one of those things we wish we could fix but simply cannot, at our current level of social development.

 

[Box Brownie]

.........We also implemented a biometric cashless school lunch payment system so that it was not obvious who was in receipt of free school meals as there is sadly some stigma attached to kids that receive them.

There certainly was stigma back in the mid 1960's when I had a period of free school lunches for about a year (may have been closer to 2 years.......his convalescence seemed very long me at about 11yo) following my father having major surgery.

The lunch tickets, on strips of 5 were marked with a stripe down the middle.....not too sure but I think they were 1shilling per ticket I.e. 5 Bob a week.......the stigma was not only expressed by some fellow pupils but also the teacher/dinner lady taking the tickets!

 

[Gremlin]

The lunch tickets, on strips of 5 were marked with a stripe down the middle.....not too sure but I think they were 1shilling per ticket I.e. 5 Bob a week.......the stigma was not only expressed by some fellow pupils but also the teacher/dinner lady taking the tickets!

I think you've answered my question inadvertently, you didn't get anything for weekends or school holidays ?

There is always stigma attached to any benefits people receive, hence many remain unclaimed by those that really
need them whilst others just grab everything they can get and still moan about it

I remember a few years ago, a friend's daughter, pregnant for the 2nd time with no partner, saying that as she
was stuck in a 2 bed flat with her mum and brother tay the council would have to give her her own place now !!

 

[Box Brownie]

I think you've answered my question inadvertently, you didn't get anything for weekends or school holidays ?

There is always stigma attached to any benefits people receive, hence many remain unclaimed by those that really
need them whilst others just grab everything they can get and still moan about it

I remember a few years ago, a friend's daughter, pregnant for the 2nd time with no partner, saying that as she
was stuck in a 2 bed flat with her mum and brother tay the council would have to give her her own place now !!

Ah! none that I recall but I/we never felt like we were deprived but when young the picture through a child's eyes is never the same as that through an adults. My dad survived his war service and the trials & tribulations that that threw at him (that needed surgery was in part because of ill health as a result of his war service)...............as did my mother and her family on the home front (they all lived in the East End of London) so that generation IMO passed on a very different set of social ethics than the more recent generations.

I think that puts me into the baby boomer generation and other than needing to "claim" after redundancies (NB not including the odd bout of sick pay) I have never needed state help...............


PS all too much of the "social issues" I see around me now are because we(not by me, for sure) have created the 'entitled generation(s)' and that "entitled" mentality I find very concerning


PPS where need truly does exist for (some) families in regard Covid19 affecting household budgets I don't have a problem with the free school meals being extended to cover non school periods but it should be administered appropriately. Oh, as for Marcus Rashford raising that awareness....................has he also done so within his professional and incredibly well paid fellow players to encourage them to show a philanthropic spirit and dip into their own pockets to help fund e.g. food banks and other worthy charitable causes.

NB I have always thought that the staggeringly high wages they are paid is obscene and that they are in effect living off the backs of some of the lowest paid people in the country who have to pay the significant ticket prices to get in to watch live matches

Sorry @mikew for taking this discussion off at a marked tangent

 

[sirch]

Absolutely to UBI, for most people it makes little or no difference but for some it is huge and it and as you say removes vast amount of administration cost from the tax burden

but there's no socially acceptable way for dealing with them.

Education?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I'm posting a recalculation (based on the government's own figures) for the savings of UBI....

The government income tax take for 2019 was £634.6 billion.
Welfare payments under the current schemes were in the region of £250 billion.
...so the government ended up with roughly £380.5 billion to put towards everything else.

However,
This was after giving £152.8 billion in tax allowances.
There was a further £125 billion of uncollected income due to the basic allowance.

Now, if the government paid every citizen £150 per week that would cost around £360 billion pounds.
So, by doing away with welfare and losing the tax allowances, the government would end up with around £552 billion in the kitty - an increase of £171 billion pounds over the current system.

Not only do we go a long way to reducing poverty and improving the position of the majority of citizens; we have more money for the NHS and other essential spending.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Absolutely to UBI, for most people it makes little or no difference but for some it is huge and it and as you say removes vast amount of administration cost from the tax burden


Education?

Unless people are utterly, radically different from when I and my children went to school, the problem is not lack of available education, but rather both capacity and willingness to acquire it. I (and many others) don't know how to change the hearts and minds of the career-stupid.

 

[sirch]

Unless people are utterly, radically different from when I and my children went to school, the problem is not lack of available education, but rather both capacity and willingness to acquire it. I (and many others) don't know how to change the hearts and minds of the career-stupid.

The cycle needs to be broken and education is the route to that. The human condition is much, much better now than it ever has been and it is through education that has been achieved. There is no quick fix,we need sustained and appropriate education for years, decades and generations and we need to take political whims out of education. We teach people Shakespeare and Quadratic equations but not how to related to other, raise children, basic statistics, managing household finances. I heard a quote earlier today "it is better to fail at something that is going to succeed than to succeed at something that is going to fail"

 

[JohnX]

Having children is a basic right but two things worry me. Firstly that the childrens lives are affected and they could copy their parents indifference and continue in the same way with future generations and that every penny and resource feckless folk suck out of the system could be going to someone in real need who truly can't look after themselves or their children for genuine reasons.

I'd say having children is a privilege, not a right. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Look at the state of the planet. The problems are largely due to people exercising their rights without responsibility.