non league football grounds

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DemiLion said:
Originally when I read your post I was going to lambast you for being mod edit: removing quoted person insult ; but that’s probably unjustified without some form of explanation.

I’m going to write this, not in the hope that you will take any notice, but that others might read it and learn. The great irony is that you are directly attacking the OP without realising it.

Let’s take a quick look at Iron’s (the OP’s) situation:

Here we have a bloke that for the last half season, and the beginning of this one, has been desperate to get into football/sports photography.
He has asked questions on here and (mostly) followed the advice he has been given, resulting in his photos improving steadily.
From the beginning he has wanted to get his photos published and move onto higher level football.

So what’s happened?

He can get a Conference Licence (and already has one), but can’t generally get his photos published because the local papers won’t pay and the NLF paper only has so many slots available each week. Without the requisite number of published and paid for photographs he can’t progress to the next level (ie getting a basic DataCo licence), unless he works directly for a newspaper or finds an agency that will adopt him.

Effectively progression in freelance football photography is being killed off by attitudes such as yours.

The reality is that Iron (although he may not realise it yet) has, if he’s very lucky, about a 5% chance of making it into professional sports photography, and that’s mainly due to people like you who have the attitude of ‘I’m alright Jack.’

Every time a newspaper gets an FoC photo mailed through what do you imagine goes through their minds?
It’s certainly not: ‘Oooh, what a fantastic, clear, sharp, action-capturing photograph with fantastic image quality.’

Frankly they will use any muzzy old snap, because photographs equal page space, and every inch of newsprint has to be covered and paid for. If they can drop a passable image onto the page and soak up the space free of any cost, then they will, because budgets are tight at the moment.

If your photograph gets published in a local paper, and they haven’t paid for it, please don’t get the mistaken impression that you are great sports photographer and they just had to use the image. Quite the opposite; you are being taken for a mug, and your photography skills are at best passable.
It’s all very well saying; ‘Go to League Football and make your money there,’ but amateurs giving newspapers their photographs without charge are making that more and more impossible.

A further result of this will be that fewer full and part-time sports photographers are going to be prepared to pass on their hard won knowledge and experience to people such as yourself and Iron on photography forums.
The number of working sports professionals who are prepared to pass critique and advice on TP has dropped dramatically over the last 18 months; and people like you are one of the reasons.
Eventually all you will be left with is a bunch posts with inaccurate advice and suggestions, countered by a couple of lone voices who still hold out hope for the future of the industry.

As for me, I’m fine thanks, as I don’t have kids to feed. However it’s exactly this scenario that has lead to me moving into the news and editorial field (which in itself is equally hard nosed) so that I don’t have to put up with the BS ego publishing quite as much.

So in conclusion:
Well done. You really are mod edit: removing quoted person insult that is contributing to the decline of an industry, and more to the point screwing up most people’s hopes of doing this wonderful job for a living.
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+1 :thumbs:
 
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Considering the aggressive nature of you replies I was going to ignore it.
Just to get things in perspective if other photographers cover the game who obviously are pros then most of the time their images end up in the local paper.
If I am the only one then it's no pictures in paper or mine.
How is this harming anyone.
As for the rest of your rant I think I will just choose to ignore it if it's OK by you.
 
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I think the thing is you may be the only person there for a game and give them images for free.... but the next game there could be someone there who makes a living from selling photos to the paper. How are they going to sell to the paper when they know that they can just email you and chances are you will give them for free?

Also I wouldn't recommend being arsey and ignoring comments from others especially when its important to them like this. If ever you want advice or if ever theres a chance of a leg up into paid photography do you think anyone will help you if you've ****ed them off by being ignorant?
 
DerekL said:
Just to get things in perspective if other photographers cover the game who obviously are pros then most of the time their images end up in the local paper.
If I am the only one then it's no pictures in paper or mine.
How is this harming anyone.
As for the rest of your rant I think I will just choose to ignore it if it's OK by you.
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It doesnt matter if youre the only one there, if an editor gets a couple of freebies land on his desk from you and also a couple of images from a local freelancer who happens to be covering another game locally and usually gets £30 quid for his photos, whose images do you think the Editor will choose to publish, yours, simple as, so you have taken the food of someones plate.
 
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Thanks for explaining DemiLion and Gary. Could I ask what you would suggest that a non-pro do then? Specifically, I am student and I don't earn my income from photography. I do, however, take photographs for a local rugby club whose matches are reported on in the local paper. No photographs are published with the report. I am almost always the only photographer at the games. At the moment my photographs are used exclusively on the club website. (I do not charge for this; I am a keen supporter of the club and even played for them in the Junior section.)

There seems, therefore, to be an opportunity to have my photographs published in the paper alongside the reports. How much would it be appropriate to ask for? £30 a photograph?

What should I do if they then choose not to pay this? It would greatly help the club's image (and allow us to better attract shirt sponsors) if images were published alongside the reports.

Thanks.
 
Its difficult Hansei but for every single photo published in any newspaper for free has in effect taken away money from someone somewhere, ask your local if theyre interested, i did and they paid and from that i progressed to shooting my chosen sport at the highest possible level, eventually the giving away of images harms the industry and other photographers earning potential.

Its tough for everyone out there including Pro's and including the papers themselves, but long term if papers are given free images they will expect them all the time even when the economic climate improves so in theory and in my personal knowledge in practice as well it only serves to harm your own potential future income if thats a route you choose to take.

Welcome
 
DerekL said:
If the local paper wants to use my photos then I will let them.
Stick to league football and national papers if you want paying as us hobbyist don't have access to photograph them games.

I am usually the only one with a camera anyway and am not taking food of your kids plates.
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I used to get paid for shooting non-league football and amateur rugby but of course that no longer happens.
As a club photographer I supply promotional pics to the club which they can supply to the paper if they wish but I refuse to give them action shots without payment.
Strangely enough the two staff togs at the paper are glad I don't as it helps keep them in a job.
 
Thanks Gary and Captain Penguin.

Gary - I like your suggestion of contacting the paper first and seeing if they're interested. I could also see possible opportunities to photograph more rugby for them in the future.

I'm not photographing for personal benefit (I'm not a photography student and that isn't a vocation I would like to pursue), but I do now understand the importance of making the paper pay. What would be a fair price range? Should I just go with whatever they suggest?

What would you then suggest if they were unwilling to pay? I have to balance the concerns of pros like yourself against the concerns of the club's management who desire the publicity which will help the club attract sponsors and impact on lots of players' lives. (I am an active member and keen supporter of the club.)
 
Hansei said:
Thanks Gary and Captain Penguin.

Gary - I like your suggestion of contacting the paper first and seeing if they're interested. I could also see possible opportunities to photograph more rugby for them in the future.

I'm not photographing for personal benefit (I'm not a photography student and that isn't a vocation I would like to pursue), but I do now understand the importance of making the paper pay. What would be a fair price range? Should I just go with whatever they suggest?

What would you then suggest if they were unwilling to pay? I have to balance the concerns of pros like yourself against the concerns of the club's management who desire the publicity which will help the club attract sponsors and impact on lots of players' lives. (I am an active member and keen supporter of the club.)
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Read Chas's reply above with reagrd to part of your question

As for what they would be willing to pay totally depents on the photos worth to them and yourself, i know a couple of papers who pay as little as £12 per image

I should also point out that i know personally 2 full time staff photographers who have now lost their jobs because of "freebies" and many more like myself who have also lost money on an occasional basis because of it.
 
As this is going very far off the original topic, can we get back o n it or shall I just close it so I can get back to my very pleasant family Sunday?
 
kelack said:
As this is going very far off the original topic, can we get back o n it or shall I just close it so I can get back to my very pleasant family Sunday?
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You could, and I can understand why you'd want to, but I honestly believe that some valid points are being brought up here and that the subject needs discussing ( albeit in a slightly politer way than my unedited post).

The original subject is pretty much lost, and stadium/ground guides are probably better off in the sticky anyway, but this could still serve as a useful thread if allowed to run. :)
 
The subject has been discussed many times and this is not the thread to do it in
 
There's no interrupting of lunch, that was hours ago after I got back from football.
 
Just to finish off I have just got back from watching City beat Arsenal. I didn't take any pictures so stay calm.

As for the criticism I seem to be under a few points.

I do not (I repeat do not want to take money off pros)
As for the post saying I have burned bridges if I wanted to make a living out of photography as I have been using a camera since the TriX days doing my own processing and printing I would have done it by now. I never had then or have now any inclination to try and make a living out of it. I do admire the work of top professionals who need no help to make money out of taking images.
I work in IT but do not get too upset with gifted amateurs who fix computers for free because they enjoy it.

Since the digital era it seems to me that anyone spending a few quid on a camera thinks they can make a living from it. This does not seem to happen in other hobbies.

I think this is more of a risk to you pros than me taking a few piccies at freezing Droylsden.

Anyway City won so feel free to abuse me as I am immune at the moment.

Have a good Sunday evening and will come back again tomorrow to feel the pain.

Love
Derek.
 
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DemiLion said:
I honestly believe that some valid points are being brought up here and that the subject needs discussing ( albeit in a slightly politer way than my unedited post).
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Gonna disagree mate, theres simply no point in discussing the issues involved anymore, some people are prepared to listen but some are just thick and the thickos spoil it for the rest, you made a valid point earlier about the forums loss of experienced sports toggers due to the numpty attitude of a few who pop up now and then whose only intention is to get their name in the papers (how sad) and to thread spoil, make no wonder these guys have stopped offering good advice, think i'll not bother myself from now on.
 
It's going nowhere now and I'm not happy at people being referred to as thick on here, so time to close
 
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