Nikon remote flash help needed

[davekiddle]

I was taking some shots today with my SB800 off camera with the on board flash as commander. The on board flash was set to -- on the camera menu but still appeared to be lighting my shots. I thought that setting the on board flash to -- would mean that the on board flash would pre-flash to instruct the off camera flash, but should not flash and contribute during the exposure?

Help anyone? Is there a setting that I need to change to get this to work correctly or is there a set of circumstances that would cause this to happen?

For info, the camera was set on manual, 1/30 @ f2.8 ISO 800 using the Nikkor 28mm AI-s. The SB800 was positioned camera right on the floor and was firing.

Thanks in advance.

 

[boyfalldown]

Are you sure it was lighting your shots? If its set to --- it fires but only to send the remote flash the information needed to fire also. This is normal and should be weak enough not to affect things. If it is theres a couple of ways round it

1. Theres a nikon part to set over the pop up flash and block the visible light - only letting the IR pulse through. Can't remember the part no.

2. Do the same with a couple of old 35mm negatives.

3. You could add an SU-800 controler to your set up but they cost about the same as an SB-800

Hugh

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Hi Dave,

After every adjustment in the CLS menu, the OK or enter button has to be pressed before any changes to the settings become active.

Joe McNally stresses this point frequently on his the CLS training DVD, as he himself makes the same mistake.

I encountered the same thing too, the on board or command unit slips back into the primary mode (ITTL) and lights the scene in a similar way to your example pic, even though the menu screen may display the '---' symbols for the command unit mode.

You must cycle through all of the options on the command unit menu and ensure OK is pressed each time to confirm your choice for each individual option.



T.

 

[AndySwinden]

This might be the think that boyfalldown means ??

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[boyfalldown]

This might be the think that boyfalldown means ??

http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1030321

that'd be the one

 

[davekiddle]

Are you sure it was lighting your shots? If its set to --- it fires but only to send the remote flash the information needed to fire also. This is normal and should be weak enough not to affect things. If it is theres a couple of ways round it

1. Theres a nikon part to set over the pop up flash and block the visible light - only letting the IR pulse through. Can't remember the part no.

2. Do the same with a couple of old 35mm negatives.

3. You could add an SU-800 controler to your set up but they cost about the same as an SB-800

Hugh

Yep, definitely lighting the shots, the SB800 was camera forward right. I've heard about the cover thing that Nikon produce, but I don't think the camera should be acting in this way. And can't afford the SB800

Hi Dave,

After every adjustment in the CLS menu, the OK or enter button has to be pressed before any changes to the settings become active.

Joe McNally stresses this point frequently on his the CLS training DVD, as he himself makes the same mistake.

I encountered the same thing too, the on board or command unit slips back into the primary mode (ITTL) and lights the scene in a similar way to your example pic, even though the menu screen may display the '---' symbols for the command unit mode. You must cycle through all of the options and ensure OK is pressed to confirm your choices.



T.

I'm sure the OK button was pressed as I had adjusted the power of the remote SB800 via the camera menu. :shrug:

Edit: Just re-read your post about cycling through all the options before pressing OK - that could be it. I'll do some more test shots tonight. Thanks

 

[boyfalldown]

Yep, definitely lighting the shots, the SB800 was camera forward right. I've heard about the cover thing that Nikon produce, but I don't think the camera should be acting in this way. And can't afford the SB800

Try the cover thingy - I think that'll solve the issues.It is the right way for the camera to behave as without your onboard firing the camera has no way of telling the remote flash to fire or give it firing information.

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Tyke Tiler]

I'm sure the OK button was pressed as I had adjusted the power of the remote SB800 via the camera menu. :shrug:

Trust me mate, this is a common result to unconfirmed choices with the command menu.

The command units, whether in camera menu, on board flash or SB unit when correctly slipped into the --- mode, will not fire during your exposure, just the pre-flash fires.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Try the cover thingy - I think that'll solve the issues.It is the right way for the camera to behave as without your onboard firing the camera has no way of telling the remote flash to fire or give it firing information.

Cheers

Hugh

Sorry mate but thats incorrect, the pre-flash tells the rest of the slave units how to 'behave' or when to fire exactly.

CLS does actually work the way it supposed to.

An infinite number of flash units can be fired from a single command unit without the command unit effecting the exposure. That's what the --- mode is for.

Read the manuals guys before buying in more stuff to make your current stuff supposedly work.

 

[davekiddle]

Sorry mate but thats incorrect, the pre-flash tells the rest of the slave units how to 'behave' or when to fire exactly.

CLS does actually work the way it supposed to.

An infinite number of flash units can be fired from a single command unit without the command unit effecting the exposure. That's what the --- mode is for.

Read the manuals guys before buying in more stuff to make your current stuff supposedly work.

and that's the reason for my post Just re-read your post about cycling through all the options before pressing OK - that could be it. I'll do some more test shots tonight. Thanks Tomas

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Thanks Tomas

Ney bother, let us know how you get on

 

[boyfalldown]

Sorry mate but thats incorrect, the pre-flash tells the rest of the slave units how to 'behave' or when to fire exactly.

CLS does actually work the way it supposed to.

An infinite number of flash units can be fired from a single command unit without the command unit effecting the exposure. That's what the --- mode is for.

Read the manuals guys before buying in more stuff to make your current stuff supposedly work.

it is - but there an amount of spill that affects (or can affect) your exposure - try it with a flash set up as you describe in front of a mirror and see what the results are like.

The spillage, combined with the whole complexity of the menu navigation for this is why I added an SU-800 to my set up

Hugh

 

[Tyke Tiler]

it is - but there an amount of spill that affects (or can affect) your exposure - try it with a flash set up as you describe in front of a mirror and see what the results are like.

The spillage, combined with the whole complexity of the menu navigation for this is why I added an SU-800 to my set up

Hugh

But wouldn't you say your talking about controlling the supposed spill of the preflash? and not actually getting the system to work correctly? How it should?

The OP clearly asks why his command unit is firing when it shouldn't be.

I mean this in the friendly manner possible. Read the manual or watch the instructional DVD's, it's all there.

 

[boyfalldown]

But wouldn't you say your talking about controlling the supposed spill of the preflash? and not actually getting the system to work correctly? How it should?

The OP clearly asks why his command unit is firing when it shouldn't be.

probaly, but its something that comes up quite alot, and normally relates to spill. I 'm not sure its unreasonable to assume this as a starting point based on the OP.

I mean this in the friendly manner possible. Read the manual or watch the instructional DVD's, it's all there.

taken in a friendly manner as well - but I made a desicion that for me, the menu driven options for an onboard commander were too complex to work quickly, coupled with the (perhaps as I percieve it) spill a controller was a better option. Reading the manual again wouldn't of changed that


Cheers

Hugh

 

[Tyke Tiler]

taken in a friendly manner as well

Awesome and appreciated!

..probaly

Nope. Certainly.

but its something that comes up quite alot, and normally relates to spill.

More accurate to say it's often confused or mistaken for spill and then Nikon make an additional fortune in selling little plastic deflectors to us lot who don't read the manual.

the menu driven options for an onboard commander were too complex to work quickly

Ya'know, your right there Hugh, at least initially the menu system seems to defy sense but after a mild pummeling, it becomes second nature.
It took me an entire Christening to drill that one home and still I make the mistake sometimes. Currently it's a 40- 60 ratio, PW's or CLS? :shrug: Time being the major decider because CLS is far more intelligent.

Many folk suspect that on the next gen CLS ergonomics, the confirmation of menu choices will be automatic and all this 'Don't forget to press OK' will be forgotten for good

 

[boyfalldown]

Many folk suspect that on the next gen CLS ergonomics, the confirmation of menu choices will be automatic and all this 'Don't forget to press OK' will be forgotten for good

nahhh they'll lose to many sales of little plastic thingys

 

[Tyke Tiler]

nahhh they'll lose to many sales of little plastic thingys

Aha, but we've sussed em out now

 

[davekiddle]

Just to clarify, I also e-mailed Nikon support, and here's the reply I got:

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting Nikon Support regarding the SB-800.

Even though the built-in flash on the D300 is set to "--" (Commander Mode), the flash will still affect the image when shutter speeds below 1/320 sec are used. However once 1/320 or higher is used it should no longer have an affect on the image.

If you have any further queries regarding this matter, please click the link above to update your question.

Kind Regards,

Anthony Peyper
Nikon Europe Support
www.europe-nikon.com/support

 

[Bruce120]

Dave I had been having the same issue and thanks for contacting Nikon. It seems you had pressed the enter button after all

 

[specialman]

Dave, tried it today after you jogged my memory about this and found the same as you - the commander (in-built) flash lit the shot, you could clearly see the shadow of the lens barrel. This will help me masively

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Just to clarify, I also e-mailed Nikon support, and here's the reply I got:

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting Nikon Support regarding the SB-800.

Even though the built-in flash on the D300 is set to "--" (Commander Mode), the flash will still affect the image when shutter speeds below 1/320 sec are used. However once 1/320 or higher is used it should no longer have an affect on the image.

If you have any further queries regarding this matter, please click the link above to update your question.

Kind Regards,

Anthony Peyper
Nikon Europe Support
www.europe-nikon.com/support

That's pretty 'handy' to know when using an on board as a commander, maybe the little plastic thingy can have a good use then after all :shrug:

You example pic however does look like the on board has fired at a high output though Dave, as if on full power, which will happen if you haven't confirmed your choices correctly. That's a fact.

Thinking about it, the mail is referring to spill and not a full blown discharge. I agree the preflash may effect exposure if your close enough to the subject but not that much.

That would make sense as it would be contradictory to the instructional DVD :shrug:

 

[Flash In The Pan]

This shot was done with CLS, using the onboard on the D300 to trigger the off-camera flashes

If you look just above the second N in Canon there is a highlight, I'm wondering does that look as if it came from the onboard? The flashes used to light the pic (sB800 +SB900) were on my left quite a bit back behind a shower curtain, so I can't see why there would be a highlight coming from my right...:shrug:

 

[DekHog]

I was just reading somewhere last week about this - it said the onboard flash on any Nikon will always effect the exposure when used as commander if it's close to the subject being photographed.

I too was under the impression that setting it to -- would mean no preflashes somehow... but then how would it communicate with the remotes? I was initally under the impression that CLS was wireless, but when you see the bother the likes of Joe McNally goes to so he can get line of sight between the flashes, obviously not.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I was initally under the impression that CLS was wireless, but when you see the bother the likes of Joe McNally goes to so he can get line of sight between the flashes, obviously not.

It is wireless, but the signal is sent by infrared, so just like a TV remote it requires line of sight to work

 

[Tyke Tiler]

This shot was done with CLS, using the onboard on the D300 to trigger the off-camera flashes

If you look just above the second N in Canon there is a highlight, I'm wondering does that look as if it came from the onboard? The flashes used to light the pic (sB800 +SB900) were on my left quite a bit back behind a shower curtain, so I can't see why there would be a highlight coming from my right...:shrug:

Good example Graham and also proves that the Nikon rep is referring to spill from a preflash and not a full blown discharge from the on board flash.

This makes more sense, although the increase to 320th baffles me as it's 1 stop higher than the camera's sync speed so the shutter will be visible in the exposure.

I'm still convinced that the example pic that Dave has posted is from incorrect confirmations within the command menu.

 

[DekHog]

It is wireless, but the signal is sent by infrared, so just like a TV remote it requires line of sight to work

So it's crap wireless then?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I don't know enough about CLS yet, Tomas. This was basically my first pic using it and to be honest I didn't feel I was getting consistant results, which in theory I should have been getting every time. Looks like I need more practice....

So it's crap wireless then?

No, it just has it's limitations. Have you thought about buying a set of Skyports and some old Nikon speedlights? They don't go for much on Ebay

 

[boyfalldown]

'fraid so - its not crap as a system though

 

[DekHog]

No, it just has it's limitations. Have you thought about buying a set of Skyports and some old Nikon speedlights? They don't go for much on Ebay

Too old and lazy for running back and forward changing settings now... would rather miss the shot and kick the **** out of my gear instead....

 

[davekiddle]

I found this thread on the Nikon Cafe forum which explains it better with sample shots.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

So it's crap wireless then?

Oh yes of course, dire crap. I mean the results that McNally gets are dreadful aren't they? The guys on his way out. :|

I don't know enough about CLS yet, Tomas. This was basically my first pic using it and to be honest I didn't feel I was getting consistant results, which in theory I should have been getting every time. Looks like I need more practice...

Practise and even more practise helps us to understand and develop. The pic is good and if that highlight is a result of pre-flash spill, I'd say it's fairly insignificant.

As far I am finding CLS I'm having the same mate, consistency and predictability issues but I know it's my unfamilarity that's the problem.
I'm so used to manual modes, dialing in power outputs individually and triggering with Pw's.

Personally I find it a little silly to be blaming and trying to discount something when it's the understanding that is limited.

CLS is complicated but it works and has excellent capability.
When we master it we'll have an easier time shooting with it, the potential of changing the behaviour of multiple flash units from the camera body is an awesome facility.

First port of call, eliminate user error

second port of call, double check user error

 

[Tyke Tiler]

I found this thread on the Nikon Cafe forum which explains it better with sample shots.

'Chikubi: It's doing the same thing as the D300 pop-up -- firing CLS signals for the off camera flashes. You can't turn it completely off or it CLS won't work. If it's affecting your exposure then you're too close to the subject or you've really got the ISO cranked up to pick up the output it's generating'.

Supports the theory that your on board was in ITTL and not the command mode too. :nono:

 

[Flash In The Pan]

What you could try is a bit of an old infrared filter over your onboard flash, if you have an old one lying around.

 

[davekiddle]

Yes, I'm realising that I probably hadn't OK'ed the settings. Duh! :bang:
Stupid really as I've used off camera flash with the on board as commander loads before! Ah well, you live and learn!

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Ah well, you live and learn!

I live by those words Dave, If you could have seen my first test flight with CLS you'd be widdlin yourself, so don't worry one smidge mate