Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

[gad-westy]

Still larger especially the 24-70

May have missed the lead up to this but just in case it's not been said, that is the F mount 24-70 on an adaptor (as is the 70-200). It doesn't seem a like for like comparison. There are apparently native versions of those two lenses due in 2019. I suspect the flange distance change alone will bring those in line.

35mm looks a bit big though. Would have loved to have seen some sort of wide(ish) pancake option a-la Sony 35mm 2.8.

 

[twist]

May have missed the lead up to this but just in case it's not been said, that is the F mount 24-70 on an adaptor (as is the 70-200). It doesn't seem a like for like comparison. There are apparently native versions of those two lenses due in 2019. I suspect the flange distance change alone will bring those in line.

35mm looks a bit big though. Would have loved to have seen some sort of wide(ish) pancake option a-la Sony 35mm 2.8.

I thought it was obvious they were adapted, I was showing current popular options. In 2019/20 I'll update them.

 

[chuckles]

What modern camera has poor image quality?

What modern camera has better IQ than a D850 (which was the comparator) - NOT what modern camera has poor image quality?

Actually, I've had a couple of 'modern' dogs (not state of the art, but should've been better)!

 

[chuckles]

CF and SD but what does it matter unless XQD is guarantee 100% reliable and if it fails you can offer my clients their pictures back.

You can’t?

End of story.

Total failure? Recoverable in software? Have other cards available? More likely to lose a card than have one fail.

I've been using dSLRs since 2001 and not one failure - in fact, never had a dual-slotted camera until 2010 but have never felt threatened by card 'failure' until I had two slots!

You keep ending story, in reality it never is!

 

[gad-westy]

I thought it was obvious they were adapted, I was showing current popular options. In 2019/20 I'll update them.

Okay, I didn't see the context.

 

[Radiohead]

Christ. Not all this again.

Look. It’s simple. Some photographers want the assurance and insurance of a second slot. Some are amateur and some are pro. If you’re in this camp a Z6 or Z7 is not a goer.

Some photographers don’t care and other features may be more important to them. Some are amateurs and some are professional. If you’re in this camp a Z6 or Z7 might be suitable.

What you choose is of absolutely zero consequence to me. All that matters is that I buy the most suitable kit for what and who I photograph.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Total failure? Recoverable in software? Have other cards available? More likely to lose a card than have one fail.

I've been using dSLRs since 2001 and not one failure - in fact, never had a dual-slotted camera until 2010 but have never felt threatened by card 'failure' until I had two slots!

You keep ending story, in reality it never is!

You are shooting a wedding and a card fail, you take it out and move on and keep shooting.

With 2 cards you know one will be fine because you can check right there you can read it.

With 1 card that card will be unreadable and unwritable until you get back to check.

Now you can’t stop in the middle and check with a computer so all of the sudden at the pressure of a wedding (or any job) you are now worrying whether you have lost any or all photos.

I really cannot be dealing with that.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Total failure? Recoverable in software? Have other cards available? More likely to lose a card than have one fail.

I've been using dSLRs since 2001 and not one failure - in fact, never had a dual-slotted camera until 2010 but have never felt threatened by card 'failure' until I had two slots!

You keep ending story, in reality it never is!

Again how is it your experience of not having a failed card counts but me having 2 failed card you dismiss?

Think about it.

It’s laugable logic.

 

[nandbytes]

Total failure? Recoverable in software? Have other cards available? More likely to lose a card than have one fail.

I've been using dSLRs since 2001 and not one failure - in fact, never had a dual-slotted camera until 2010 but have never felt threatened by card 'failure' until I had two slots!

You keep ending story, in reality it never is!

I have never been in an accident or stopped by the police. So should I stop buying insurance?

 

[snerkler]

Hmmm, those lenses aren't small, the 35 on the Sony is the Zeiss 1.4.

View attachment 133267

View attachment 133268

Big aren’t they, not sure why they have to be so big. Yes the mount’s big but can’t they do pancakes or something?

I’ll be interested to see what the Z looks and feels like though. The A7riii felt a really well built bit of kit but alongside the Z it looks a little bit toy like somehow (it’s clearly not), based on this I’m expecting the Z to look and feel like some serious kit. However, this is going on some computer generated mock ups, it might look like a fisher price in real life

 

[Fraser Euan White]

You are shooting a wedding and a card fail, you take it out and move on and keep shooting.

With 2 cards you know one will be fine because you can check right there you can read it.

With 1 card that card will be unreadable and unwritable until you get back to check.

Now you can’t stop in the middle and check with a computer so all of the sudden at the pressure of a wedding (or any job) you are now worrying whether you have lost any or all photos.

I really cannot be dealing with that.

You go to a wedding,

loose your cards/have them stolen/have camera stolen with both cards in or drop it in water whilst walking backwards and tripping over a guests leg whilst shooting the confetti shot.

What do you do then Raymond?

Only 1% thought it was important, hence Nikon didn't have it high on their priority list; they chose image quality with nice colour rendition and weather sealing as a higher priority.

If you can't cope in life without your two slots - then why are you contributing to this thread - It has only one slot and won't change!

Here is the survey BTW:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless

 

[nandbytes]

Big aren’t they, not sure why they have to be so big. Yes the mount’s big but can’t they do pancakes or something?

I’ll be interested to see what the Z looks and feels like though. The A7riii felt a really well built bit of kit but alongside the Z it looks a little bit toy like somehow (it’s clearly not), based on this I’m expecting the Z to look and feel like some serious kit. However, this is going on some computer generated mock ups, it might look like a fisher price in real life

Fisher price is really well built
Give my son any camera and he'll have it broken in matter of minutes yet the fisher price toys still work perfectly. You wish your camera was built like fisher price

 

[snerkler]

You go to a wedding,

loose your cards/have them stolen/have camera stolen with both cards in or drop it in water whilst walking backwards and tripping over a guests leg whilst shooting the confetti shot.

What do you do then Raymond?

Only 1% thought it was important, hence Nikon didn't have it high on their priority list; they chose image quality with nice colour rendition and weather sealing as a higher priority.

If you can't cope in life without your two slots - then why are you contributing to this thread - It has only one slot and won't change!

Here is the survey BTW:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless

That poll needs some interpreting, it’s not 1% of the people deemed dual slots important, it’s just not top of the list in terms of priority. It’s a really bad chart imo, they should have just done a top 20.

 

[Raymond Lin]

You go to a wedding,

loose your cards/have them stolen/have camera stolen with both cards in or drop it in water whilst walking backwards and tripping over a guests leg whilst shooting the confetti shot.

What do you do then Raymond?

Only 1% thought it was important, hence Nikon didn't have it high on their priority list; they chose image quality with nice colour rendition and weather sealing as a higher priority.

If you can't cope in life without your two slots - then why are you contributing to this thread - It has only one slot and won't change!

Here is the survey BTW:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless

Look, using “it never happens to me” as a defence is a dumb argument.

As for 1%. I am that 1%. Good luck to Nikon selling it to that 99%.

Besides, you openly said you care most about using the camera and not what comes out of it, so your perspective is rather polar opposite of any professionals because we can’t sell our enjoyment to the client, we sell our photos. So in order to underand what a professional think, you need to step into our shows and from what I have seen, you haven’t done that.

 

[woof woof]

No offence meant to anyone but toy like is a thow away line I do get tired of reading. I'd much rather read something a little more specific and meaningful.

 

[nandbytes]

You go to a wedding,

loose your cards/have them stolen/have camera stolen with both cards in or drop it in water whilst walking backwards and tripping over a guests leg whilst shooting the confetti shot.

What do you do then Raymond?

Only 1% thought it was important, hence Nikon didn't have it high on their priority list; they chose image quality with nice colour rendition and weather sealing as a higher priority.

If you can't cope in life without your two slots - then why are you contributing to this thread - It has only one slot and won't change!

Here is the survey BTW:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless

Dpreview survey really isn't representative of the whole market. In fact far from it.

p.s. personally one card slot isn't important for me.

 

[twist]

No offence meant to anyone but toy like is a thow away line I do get tired of reading. I'd much rather read something a little more specific and meaningful.

The d750 feels more toy like. Plastic and mushy pad. It will still take the knocks.

 

[chuckles]

but me having 2 failed card you dismiss

Again how is it your experience of not having a failed card counts but me having 2 failed card you dismiss?

Think about it.

It’s laugable logic.

I've thought about it ----- I hope both those cards weren't in the same camera

I wouldn't dismiss it - I'm not that kind of guy. There are reasons cards fail - normally: cheap, not formatted in camera, poorly stored, poorly handled (I'm not suggesting you've fallen into any of those categories) and loads more

 

[redhed17]

Someone talking some sense at last !!!

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/27/anonymous-nikon-z7-guest-post.aspx/#more-125920

OMG, for a start, if you are so confident in your opinion, use your name. Nobody had any doubts about image quality from any Nikon mirrorless camera unless they decided to do something totally new with a different pixel count to what they have had out before. As it is, it looks like they have refined what as gone before, and that was pretty much class leading image quality. If that was the extent of what he would have liked Nikon to emphasize in their presentations, the reply would have been, I already have that, is that it?

Dismissing people's wanting of dual card slots with with unfounded allegations of wedding photographer's not even using the 2nd, and maybe only using the SD slot because they may not even have XQD cards! Mmm, so if there are people like this then XQD with one card slot is even more unattractive because they will only have SD cards. But like I say, peddling unfounded stories to try and make the one card slot decision a non issue.

Saying that the subjects chosen for the press event maybe weren't a good idea because the "autofocus system is not finished and is currently sub standard" kind of glosses over the autofocus system is not finished and is currently sub standard. But it is OK to buy because the one card slot is not a problem and the image quality is great. Ffs.

But never mind the AF, it's prettier than the Sony's.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I've thought about it ----- I hope both those cards weren't in the same camera

I wouldn't dismiss it - I'm not that kind of guy. There are reasons cards fail - normally: cheap, not formatted in camera, poorly stored, poorly handled (I'm not suggesting you've fallen into any of those categories) and loads more

I only ever get Sandisk and yes they were real, Sandisk replaced it and no, they were not in the same camera.

Anyway, I don’t really care Nikon don’t put dual card in this because having the photos in the end is paramount above all else. I got to take all reasonable care to ensure I deliver those images.

“It never happened to me before” would be a crap defence if a client sue me.

 

[nandbytes]

I only ever get Sandisk and yes they were real, Sandisk replaced it and no, they were not in the same camera.

Anyway, I don’t really care Nikon don’t put dual card in this because having the photos in the end is paramount above all else. I got to take all reasonable care to ensure I deliver those images.

“It never happened to me before” would be a crap defence if a client sue me.

You should instead try it never happened to the anonymous guy on nikonrumors also

 

[Phil V]

I really cannot be dealing with that.

Of course you can’t. But please don’t think that you speak for all wedding photographers or all pros.

No one ever called out a pro who shoots Leica, Hasselblad, Leaf or Phase One, yet oddly.... one card slot.

If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. But please can we move on

 

[photogwannabe]

...No one ever called out a pro who shoots Leica, Hasselblad, Leaf or Phase One, yet oddly.... one card slot. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. But please can we move on

Yes! Please.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

I have never been in an accident or stopped by the police. So should I stop buying insurance?

I have,I’m skint

 

[twist]

Uh oh.....

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/...ons-thinking-and-how-will-the-z-system-evolve

Digital Camera World:
There's a battery grip, is that right?

Tim Carter:
It's not a grip, it's a battery pack.

Digital Camera World:
So it doesn't feature a portrait format shutter button?

Tim Carter:
No. I don't have a huge amount of details. Basically we're just announcing that we will be developing a battery pack. It will take two batteries, and boost therefore the battery life of the product.

 

[Moreorless]

I think this is a load of bull- if they could have brought out better they would have- certainly far far away from D5 status

https://www.nikonrumors.co/nikon-executive-said-they-may-also-release-a-d5-like-model-in-the-z-line/

Nikon definitely aren't beyond holding back for future releases but I suspect its moreso that they didn't believe the need for such a body was as pressing as for something to compete with the A7 II and A7R III, cameras that certainly have potential professional use but are mostly targeted at the high end amateur market and the potential for size saving.

Maybe also down to the lens range offered? a pro body without F/2.8 zooms to go with it would probably not be viewed as seriously.

My guess is that if we see something released next year it will be somewhat larger with two card slots and controls more similar to a DSLR but still not of the size/build of the D5.

 

[simonbarker]

What modern camera has better IQ than a D850 (which was the comparator) - NOT what modern camera has poor image quality?

Actually, I've had a couple of 'modern' dogs (not state of the art, but should've been better)!

None but weren't we talking about the Z series? My point was I don't see image quality being a selling point over their own DSLR range, maybe over some competitors but are any major companies putting out £2-3K plus cameras that have bad IQ?

 

[Fraser Euan White]

None but weren't we talking about the Z series? My point was I don't see image quality being a selling point over their own DSLR range, maybe over some competitors but are any major companies putting out £2-3K plus cameras that have bad IQ?

Hi Simon, you had a go earlier when I said I couldn't see the advantage over their DSLR range ...................but by the replies/your reaction the weight saving and other features of mirrorless would seem to be an advantage to some?

With this being the high res version I think it is unlikely to be the 'first port of call' for sports photographers so maybe the AF is fine for the type of photography it will be used for, along with the big Z lens mount the IQ will be outstanding and higher than the opposition which is what ultimately counts to the majority?

(Still think the D810 is better than the competition)

 

[snerkler]

No offence meant to anyone but toy like is a thow away line I do get tired of reading. I'd much rather read something a little more specific and meaningful.

It’s a difficult one that as I understand exactly what is meant when people say toy like. I’ll try to explain better in future but at present I can’t think of a better way

Uh oh.....

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/...ons-thinking-and-how-will-the-z-system-evolve

Digital Camera World:
There's a battery grip, is that right?

Tim Carter:
It's not a grip, it's a battery pack.

Digital Camera World:
So it doesn't feature a portrait format shutter button?

Tim Carter:
No. I don't have a huge amount of details. Basically we're just announcing that we will be developing a battery pack. It will take two batteries, and boost therefore the battery life of the product.

Nikon confuse me, they really do. From that article they say they have the best EVF on the market then go on to quite a refresh rate of only 60hz, aren’t these two things contradictory?

They then explain the choice of xqd and one card slot. Xqd I get, especially if it’s interchangeable with CFexpress, but I still don’t get the one slot. You had a clean slate, just make the camera 1-2% bigger

Then the battery grip comment. Have I fast forwarded to April 1st? You’re seriously considering making a battery pack that is not a grip and won’t have controls? What the actual fudge????? I hope that compatability’s there at least for third party to do it. I can only hope they’re having a laugh, or at least rethink that decision. That’s probably on par with the one card slot in terms of bad design choices

 

[redhed17]

Uh oh.....

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/...ons-thinking-and-how-will-the-z-system-evolve

Digital Camera World:
There's a battery grip, is that right?

Tim Carter:
It's not a grip, it's a battery pack.

Digital Camera World:
So it doesn't feature a portrait format shutter button?

Tim Carter:
No. I don't have a huge amount of details. Basically we're just announcing that we will be developing a battery pack. It will take two batteries, and boost therefore the battery life of the product.

Nikon know how to f up in loads of small ways don't they!

We'll grudgingly admit that power may be a problem but we won't do what we have done in our DSLR's and give a battery designed to be comfortable and useable in the portrait orientation, no just give you a dumb battery pack, with no functionality. And judging the reference model they had, basically a rectangular box screwed into the bottom, they don't even want you to hold it that way. Do they not expect their Z camera users to take pics with the camera in the portrait orientation!

And also instead of designing it all properly it looks like the two batteries will be in the grip, sorry battery pack, and none in the body, whereas if they put the connections in the body, instead of how it looks in the battery compartment, the could have had 3 batteries in use.

And in that interview, did you see a compelling reason to have a mirrorless camera other than some people want mirrorless cameras, everyone agrees that is the way it is going and peer pressure.

The mind boggles it really does.

 

[Ulfric M Douglas]

tut tut, sensors not lined up

That made me look ;
the Nikon has a shorter sensor-to-flange than the Sony so they can make a smaller camera if they tried ...
something for the handbags.

 

[Raymond Lin]

That made me look ;
the Nikon has a shorter sensor-to-flange than the Sony so they can make a smaller camera if they tried ...
something for the handbags.

Well, not with they mount. It may be 2mm thinner but that’s it. It’ll still be bulky ther other 2 axis.

 

[Fraser Euan White]

I must be reading the initial reports differently to others as most seem positive on the whole with the DP Review conclusion of this:

Overall, the combination of high resolution, expansive dynamic range, compact size, comfortable handling and great 4K video with intuitive and decisive autofocus is hard to dismiss. We're confident in saying that, as of now, the Z 7 is Nikon's most well-rounded camera they've ever produced.

Full article here:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8167832602/the-nikon-z7-what-we-think-and-where-it-should-go

 

[johnnypanic]

It's all guess work at the moment (apart from the single memory card slot). So just relax and wait until the cameras are out for review. All this ranting, could be meaningless, if they manage to fix a lot of perceived issues with a firmware update.

Once out, in the real world, if there are issues then fire away

 

[redhed17]

I must be reading the initial reports differently to others as most seem positive on the whole with the DP Review conclusion of this:

Overall, the combination of high resolution, expansive dynamic range, compact size, comfortable handling and great 4K video with intuitive and decisive autofocus is hard to dismiss. We're confident in saying that, as of now, the Z 7 is Nikon's most well-rounded camera they've ever produced.

A person called Kurgo in reply to that article on DPReviw in the comments.

With that pathetic focusing system, buffer and fps it's unbelievably inferior to the d850. Also one card slot and appalling battery life YET it's the most complete camera in Nikon's history? You really should let the hype die down a bit chaps. I'd rather a mirrorless than a DSLR but the d850 is *by far* more complete than this. It's simply an objective fact.

And MikeRan in the comments too.

“We're confident in saying that, as of now, the Z 7 is Nikon's most well-rounded camera they've ever produced.”

I guess you’re also saying the Sony A7RIII is the most well rounded of all, given the Z7 really offers very little over the Sony. (But the reverse is a different story)

 

[HoppyUK]

May have missed the lead up to this but just in case it's not been said, that is the F mount 24-70 on an adaptor (as is the 70-200). It doesn't seem a like for like comparison. There are apparently native versions of those two lenses due in 2019. I suspect the flange distance change alone will bring those in line.

35mm looks a bit big though. Would have loved to have seen some sort of wide(ish) pancake option a-la Sony 35mm 2.8.

Most native Z-mount lenses will not be any smaller than the equivalent DSLR lens plus adapter. The reduction in body depth (flange distance) with mirrorless only delivers a shorter lens with focal lengths under 40mm or so. And that's only in theory - in practise, it doesn't usually turn out that way.

The size and weight benefits of mirrorless are basically a myth. It's much more to do with sensor size and some manufacturers, eg Olympus, trying hard to make everything as small as they possibly can.

 

[HoppyUK]

I must be reading the initial reports differently to others as most seem positive on the whole with the DP Review conclusion of this:

Overall, the combination of high resolution, expansive dynamic range, compact size, comfortable handling and great 4K video with intuitive and decisive autofocus is hard to dismiss. We're confident in saying that, as of now, the Z 7 is Nikon's most well-rounded camera they've ever produced.

Full article here:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8167832602/the-nikon-z7-what-we-think-and-where-it-should-go

That article is confusing, as it doesn't cover the AF shortcomings detailed in their other multi-faceted reviews. That last sentence, re the Z7 being the most well rounded camera Nikon has ever produced, is not supported by their own other comments and it's just daft to suggest that the Z7 is a more complete camera than the D850.

I posted this reference a couple of days ago re AF performance, from DPReview's First Impressions article. They've done other articles including test sequences of moving subjects that don't look great. Scroll down to the section Performance: AF-C. This ties in with the Northrup's AF experience, though DPReview had the cameras a couple of days ahead of the launch and were able to use them in good daylight.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/5

 

[johnnypanic]

One thing is for sure, Nikon's marketing department, need fired! Hype is great, if you can live up to the expectations, but is actually dangerous when you can't!

 

[HoppyUK]

Christ. Not all this again.

Look. It’s simple. Some photographers want the assurance and insurance of a second slot. Some are amateur and some are pro. If you’re in this camp a Z6 or Z7 is not a goer.

Some photographers don’t care and other features may be more important to them. Some are amateurs and some are professional. If you’re in this camp a Z6 or Z7 might be suitable.

What you choose is of absolutely zero consequence to me. All that matters is that I buy the most suitable kit for what and who I photograph.

Quite. Please, enough already

The thing is, issues like dual card slots, or the control operating sequence for AF tracking, or the tilting LCD vs fully swivel/rotating, and other similar criticisms - these are are deliberately implemented features. Nikon can change them (in a revised model) at the drop of a email from above.

But the AF shortcomings are not so easily fixed and it's simply not good enough for a camera at this price level. That needs more R & D - more time, more money, and better technology than Nikon currently has available

 

[simonbarker]

Hi Simon, you had a go earlier when I said I couldn't see the advantage over their DSLR range ...................but by the replies/your reaction the weight saving and other features of mirrorless would seem to be an advantage to some?

If you're going to imply someone is talking "utter b****x" don't expect a pat on the back. Quote my original point rather than whatever you think it might have been but to address your point I think it's a vanishingly small market who'd want a lighter D850 that doesn't perform as well at the same price.

With this being the high res version I think it is unlikely to be the 'first port of call' for sports photographers so maybe the AF is fine for the type of photography it will be used for, along with the big Z lens mount the IQ will be outstanding and higher than the opposition which is what ultimately counts to the majority?

True enough but this is presumably just as big of a problem for the Z6 which people would expect to handle action well. Even so, given the choice would you pick the Z7 over a D850? I wouldn't, I'd want the more reliable AF and better battery life, the new lens designs will be a pull factor for the Z series but that's years away. Hard to be sure what the majority wants, they probably wouldn't buy a D850 or Z7 but going back to my earlier point, image quality is excellent for all the cameras in this bracket isn't it?

There's a lot of assumption on the AF performance being made though, it would be nice for a final review to confirm how consistent and accurate it actually is.

(Still think the D810 is better than the competition)

Having just sold my D810, all I'll say is it's a great camera.