Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way


They don't? What I'm getting from early reaction is that Nikon has done enough but we won't know for sure for a long time yet. The Nikon 1-series was an initial hit...

I was reading some articles on Thom Hogan's site last night because he normally has some interesting things to say about Nikon and Nikon gear, and this quote from Steve Jobs jumped out. A sale is a sale, better you get it than open the door for someone else.

“if you don't cannibalise yourself, someone else will.” Steve Jobs

Very true, and Nikon could be accused of that right up until yesterday. Nikon's DSLR sales will drop.
 
Last edited:
I had some fool on a FB group yesterday tell me that nobody cares about photography anymore, it's all about video, and he doesn't understand why anyone who takes pictures bothers with any of these modern cameras, they should be using 10yr old DSLR because they're good enough. All improvements are now only video based. Of course he's a moron, but sadly he isn't alone, that is how that "tiny" market see it, and they are coming in their droves.
 
Crikey, that's a lot of cards. Do you mind me asking what you're doing with them? I'm just curious. I mean, you're budgeting on 6 cards for each of 4 cameras. If you're shooting RAW and JPEG (worst case), each image on a 24 MP camera is going to take up to, say, 40 MB? So you'd be getting around 1600 images per card, and you're budgeting for something like 9600 images on each of 4 cards, nearly 40,000 images total? (Before you do any downloading/backing up?)

It's one set of backup cards that are used in every wedding/shoot. We back up to our computers from this set.

4 sets are then for weddings (although we just bought a 5th set), and 1 set is for engagements/portrait sessions. My wife also has other sets of cards purely for her commercial work that we'd have to replace in this hypothetical switch to Z.

The reason we have 4 sets for weddings is that we often have an edit queue to get through. As well as having 3 HD backups of the unedited RAWS before cull/edit we also have a set of cards with another backup. So that is four RAW backups. The reason I like having backup cards (as well as HDs) is that it protects us against any file issues that may have happened during the various write stages. So if I go to edit a wedding and find a problem with the files I transferred, I still have a set of cards straight from the camera that I can re-import if necessary. I got into this habit after a friend had a full set of corrupted RAW files that somehow got broken in transfer.

In terms of photos taken, we would rarely fill a 64gb card on a wedding day but we would also rarely (if ever) shoot below 32gb either, so 64gb cards are a must. I only write over a wedding card set when I have the processed, final images uploaded to cloud storage. After this stage, I keep one back up of the culled RAW files and one backup of the unculled RAW files on two different HD drives permanently.

Some will see this as needless, but I'm really serious about protecting my clients' images and have never lost any to date.
 
I had some fool on a FB group yesterday tell me that nobody cares about photography anymore, it's all about video, and he doesn't understand why anyone who takes pictures bothers with any of these modern cameras, they should be using 10yr old DSLR because they're good enough. All improvements are now only video based. Of course he's a moron, but sadly he isn't alone, that is how that "tiny" market see it, and they are coming in their droves.
As i said small but influential.

And yes of course he’s a moron. But you only have to look at the state of the world to realise that being a moron doesn’t hold some people back.

The ‘democratisation of knowledge’ is going to be a bumpy ride.
 
I'm only guessing that Sony has twisted Nikon's arm over the XQD thing. It's the only explanation I can think of TBH, perhaps part of a long term sensor deal going back a few years when Nikon first started using Sony sensors and, against the odds, put XQD cards into their high-end cameras since the D4. The apparent contradiction of Sony not using XQD yet forcing Nikon to, maybe makes sense when it all shakes out to the bottom line long term. XQD needs wide acceptance from a strong brand to catch on - if it does with Nikon, Sony wins; if it doesn't, Sony could pick up lost Nikon sales. Maybe :confused:
If anything like that was involved it would probably have been leaked after all these years imho. The non use of XQD in Sony consumer products is puzzling, and I may have gone some way to discouraging others in adopting the format if Sony themselves are unwilling to embrace it. :confused: There are benefits from using XQD which some Sony cameras could have used, such as quickly clearing the buffer, which some of the cameras suffer from, but after the change from Memory Stick to SD, they have so far decided not to go to XQD, and if CFExpress takes hold I can't see them ever using that.

Apparently Sony split the Semiconductor part into a separate company, under the Sony Corporation umbrella in 2015. They make sensors for a lot of companies, and not camera sensors. Nikon are apparently one of there largest long term customers.
 
As i said small but influential.

And yes of course he’s a moron. But you only have to look at the state of the world to realise that being a moron doesn’t hold some people back.

The ‘democratisation of knowledge’ is going to be a bumpy ride.

Look at Casey Neistat, started vlogging just for fun couple years back, now has 10m+ subs and people like Will Smith are dropping by his studio. The manufacturers definitely care what these vloggers want, a lot of people turned around on the 6D mkII because Casey started using it as his main vlog cam. I don't think it's in any way a tiny market, maybe nothing towards the trad photography market but it's definitely growing much faster.
 
Interesting interview with Nikon UK Product Manager Tim Carter HERE, if you don't want to watch the whole thing go to 4.10.
Looks like I was right about being able to fit two cards in the body. :( If they keep this body, or something very similar as Sony have done then that seems to rule out dual cards in their mirrorless in the future. :rolleyes:

Btw, thanks for the link. :)
 
Last edited:
What were you expecting? They both look like very capable cameras to me, overall a fair match for Sony on both performance and price. No small achievement from a standing start, and it's just a beginning. I'm not sure we could realistically have expected more and personally I'm relieved that the F-mount adapter works well and the all-new hybrid-AF is good, given Sony set the bar pretty high there. Right now, Nikon must be very pleased with the reaction and the pre-orders piling in.

Nikon is in business to make money, not to produce the ultimate camera and certainly not to kill DSLRs just yet, even if they could. It only has to be 'good enough' to trigger the buy button, while leaving development room for the next upgrade.

I agree that Nikon is in the business to make money and they want to sell as many cameras as possible, but how does not include a dual card = more profit? When the camera you are referring to like the D750 and D850 actually retail for less. How does this tactic actually increase sale and profit? At the end of the day, if someone is looking to buy a Nikon and HAVE to buy a Nikon, Nikon is only ever going to sell 1 camera to that person, you are not going to sell 2.


Say if I must have dual card slots.


If I am looking to buy a mirrorless camera, Nikon won’t get any sale from me.


If I am an existing Nikon DSLR user who has dual card slots in my bodies, Nikon don’t get a new sale from me. I might choose to stay with what I have or worse, sell up and switch to the competition altogether.


The logic isn’t everyone is looking to buy a Nikon and ONLY will ever buy a Nikon, I mean some people do but not everyone, even if they see the Z6/7 don’t have dual card and then get the D750/D850. You forget that whether they get the Z7 or D850, Nikon still only sell 1 camera. It’s not pushing the buyer “up”, more sideways, it’s in the same price bracket, in fact one might argue that you are getting less profit because that adaptor must have profit in it too. Not to mention you want good sales figures and projections on your NEW product.


Putting out an ultimate camera won’t kill total sales. Sure, it might kill the sales to their D850 or even D5 but if like you said, D5 is small potatoes compare to enthusiast right? Why would it matter killing that off? Lol. Putting out an ultimate camera will attract users from other brands which means market share, if they cannibalise a sale from their DSLR, so what, it’s not like they are not getting money from that sale, it is still making a sale, it is another user on their new mount, another user to hang on to possibly for the next 30, 40, 50 years. Instead the argument of not include dual card is to drive the user into an old mount? one that the user won’t be able to then spend more money on Nikon and buy a few of their brand new more expensive lenses.


So instead selling a Z6 plus an adaptor + a couple of new lenses (at much higher price than the current 50/1.8 or 35/1.8). The argument of “business” is to upsell the customer into spending less money and he or she may already have lots of lenses.


I am sorry, that makes no sense to me, does it really make sense to anyone here?
 
I had some fool on a FB group yesterday tell me that nobody cares about photography anymore, it's all about video, and he doesn't understand why anyone who takes pictures bothers with any of these modern cameras, they should be using 10yr old DSLR because they're good enough. All improvements are now only video based. Of course he's a moron, but sadly he isn't alone, that is how that "tiny" market see it, and they are coming in their droves.

Maybe he's a moron, or perhaps just ahead of his time. The whole imaging industry, in all its facets, is undergoing massive upheaval. Who knows where it will lead, but I can't imagine that I'm going to like it much.

The whole mirrorless vs DSLR debate is frankly insignificant to the mass market.
 
Maybe he's a moron, or perhaps just ahead of his time. The whole imaging industry, in all its facets, is undergoing massive upheaval. Who knows where it will lead, but I can't imagine that I'm going to like it much.

The whole mirrorless vs DSLR debate is frankly insignificant to the mass market.

He's a moron for saying we shouldn't bother with the newer tech as photographers, we benefit from it all too, if we never touch the video functions. But he may be right in that the manufacturers are starting to concentrate more so on that fresh market. None of them want to be left behind. All these kids now tuning into these vlogs more than they watch tv, all they are seeing is mirrorless this and that, it's what they will buy in future, dslr will look like old brick mobile phones to them :D
 
One thing which Thom Hogan mentioned, which I hadn't read anywhere, was that the new lenses can have configurable buttons and rings, and some may have extra rings defaulting to exposure control, That and the focus could be changed to do other things such as aperture or exposure compensation control. That sounds interesting. :)
 
I agree that Nikon is in the business to make money and they want to sell as many cameras as possible, but how does not include a dual card = more profit? When the camera you are referring to like the D750 and D850 actually retail for less. How does this tactic actually increase sale and profit? At the end of the day, if someone is looking to buy a Nikon and HAVE to buy a Nikon, Nikon is only ever going to sell 1 camera to that person, you are not going to sell 2.


Say if I must have dual card slots.


If I am looking to buy a mirrorless camera, Nikon won’t get any sale from me.


If I am an existing Nikon DSLR user who has dual card slots in my bodies, Nikon don’t get a new sale from me. I might choose to stay with what I have or worse, sell up and switch to the competition altogether.


The logic isn’t everyone is looking to buy a Nikon and ONLY will ever buy a Nikon, I mean some people do but not everyone, even if they see the Z6/7 don’t have dual card and then get the D750/D850. You forget that whether they get the Z7 or D850, Nikon still only sell 1 camera. It’s not pushing the buyer “up”, more sideways, it’s in the same price bracket, in fact one might argue that you are getting less profit because that adaptor must have profit in it too. Not to mention you want good sales figures and projections on your NEW product.


Putting out an ultimate camera won’t kill total sales. Sure, it might kill the sales to their D850 or even D5 but if like you said, D5 is small potatoes compare to enthusiast right? Why would it matter killing that off? Lol. Putting out an ultimate camera will attract users from other brands which means market share, if they cannibalise a sale from their DSLR, so what, it’s not like they are not getting money from that sale, it is still making a sale, it is another user on their new mount, another user to hang on to possibly for the next 30, 40, 50 years. Instead the argument of not include dual card is to drive the user into an old mount? one that the user won’t be able to then spend more money on Nikon and buy a few of their brand new more expensive lenses.


So instead selling a Z6 plus an adaptor + a couple of new lenses (at much higher price than the current 50/1.8 or 35/1.8). The argument of “business” is to upsell the customer into spending less money and he or she may already have lots of lenses.


I am sorry, that makes no sense to me, does it really make sense to anyone here?

You're asking me? I don't know, other than to say that things can look very different from the manufacturer's point of view, and often for reasons that are not obvious and they're reluctant to share ;)

I'm just trying to make sense of what appears to be a blunder - only one card slot, and XQD at that. All I can say is that it was obviously a very deliberate decision that Nikon took in the full knowledge that it would upset a lot of people. They will have their reasons - which might well turn out to be wrong.
 
What were you expecting? They both look like very capable cameras to me, overall a fair match for Sony on both performance and price. No small achievement from a standing start, and it's just a beginning. I'm not sure we could realistically have expected more and personally I'm relieved that the F-mount adapter works well and the all-new hybrid-AF is good, given Sony set the bar pretty high there. Right now, Nikon must be very pleased with the reaction and the pre-orders piling in.

Nikon is in business to make money, not to produce the ultimate camera and certainly not to kill DSLRs just yet, even if they could. It only has to be 'good enough' to trigger the buy button, while leaving development room for the next upgrade.
I've gone over this already tbh, but the main things I expected on top of what they've done is two card slots (an essential feature for me nowadays), better frame rate and better buffer. Also, I'm surprised at how poor the battery life is alleged to be. I know it's their first attempt, BUT as I've already said imo new tech releases should be at least as good as the current competition for a given price point. We're already saying well lets wait to see what the mark ii or Z9 offers aren't we, as in we think that they will be more fo a match for the competition. My argument would be rather than releasing a sub par body and then 'get it right' next time, why not wait, not rush something out and delivery something properly impressive?

Now I understand what you're saying about the business model, and I think you're right on that. But you asked what I expect, and I expect it to be as good as the competition ;)
 
Some people are also going to be annoyed the flash AF grid doesn't work on the Zs.
 
I agree that Nikon is in the business to make money and they want to sell as many cameras as possible, but how does not include a dual card = more profit? When the camera you are referring to like the D750 and D850 actually retail for less. How does this tactic actually increase sale and profit? At the end of the day, if someone is looking to buy a Nikon and HAVE to buy a Nikon, Nikon is only ever going to sell 1 camera to that person, you are not going to sell 2.


Say if I must have dual card slots.


If I am looking to buy a mirrorless camera, Nikon won’t get any sale from me.


If I am an existing Nikon DSLR user who has dual card slots in my bodies, Nikon don’t get a new sale from me. I might choose to stay with what I have or worse, sell up and switch to the competition altogether.


The logic isn’t everyone is looking to buy a Nikon and ONLY will ever buy a Nikon, I mean some people do but not everyone, even if they see the Z6/7 don’t have dual card and then get the D750/D850. You forget that whether they get the Z7 or D850, Nikon still only sell 1 camera. It’s not pushing the buyer “up”, more sideways, it’s in the same price bracket, in fact one might argue that you are getting less profit because that adaptor must have profit in it too. Not to mention you want good sales figures and projections on your NEW product.


Putting out an ultimate camera won’t kill total sales. Sure, it might kill the sales to their D850 or even D5 but if like you said, D5 is small potatoes compare to enthusiast right? Why would it matter killing that off? Lol. Putting out an ultimate camera will attract users from other brands which means market share, if they cannibalise a sale from their DSLR, so what, it’s not like they are not getting money from that sale, it is still making a sale, it is another user on their new mount, another user to hang on to possibly for the next 30, 40, 50 years. Instead the argument of not include dual card is to drive the user into an old mount? one that the user won’t be able to then spend more money on Nikon and buy a few of their brand new more expensive lenses.


So instead selling a Z6 plus an adaptor + a couple of new lenses (at much higher price than the current 50/1.8 or 35/1.8). The argument of “business” is to upsell the customer into spending less money and he or she may already have lots of lenses.


I am sorry, that makes no sense to me, does it really make sense to anyone here?
This is my thinking too... Nikon should have gone all out instead of playing it safe...... its a big own goal, one which they may regret further down the line.
 
This is my thinking too... Nikon should have gone all out instead of playing it safe...... its a big own goal, one which they may regret further down the line.

They can always use this to upsell the next one. But I think not having dual write features is unbelievably off putting. Having experienced card failure - and losing some great images I wouldn't want something that didn't have this function.
 
A bit like the Sony
Maybe, but I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere in regard to these Nikon's. ;)

We're already saying well lets wait to see what the mark ii or Z9 offers aren't we, as in we think that they will be more fo a match for the competition.
If they stick with the same body, which they may not do, but if they do the Nikon chap said there was no space for a second card. Unless this really affects sales then I would think they would stick with the same sized camera body for any subsequent iterations of the Z6 and Z7. If they follow the Sony model even more closely then that would only be minor changes to the same body, so lots of money saved on designing that aspect in the future as you are refining rather than starting from scratch.

Now if they decide to try and take on the a9, which is maybe considered to be more professional ;) than the a7's, and the second slot is considered to be important, then that may necessitate a new slightly larger body. And that would probably be about 18 months away before the next Olympics. For some that could be too long to wait for a Nikon mirrorless with a 2nd card slot. Depends on how important it is to some people, and whether they are willing to stick with Nikon and wait on the off chance they may deliver this feature that they want or not. :thinking:
 
I don't understand how a body that is bigger than the Sony mirrorless has no room for a second slot. This was designed from scratch. The decision on cards was made deliberately, right at the start.

Lower res screens would've also done wonders for battery life. I imagine this is where Sony saves a lot of power with the a7iii.

If the buffer is as poor as the preview vids show its also bad news. I've yet to fill the a7iii buffer in real world shooting. I really can't emphasise how satisfying it us to shoot a confetti line at 8-10 fps, get every shot in focus and not fill the buffer.

Had I not traded my d750s for Sony already, I'd be doing it now.
 
I don't understand how a body that is bigger than the Sony mirrorless has no room for a second slot. This was designed from scratch. The decision on cards was made deliberately, right at the start.

Lower res screens would've also done wonders for battery life. I imagine this is where Sony saves a lot of power with the a7iii.

If the buffer is as poor as the preview vids show its also bad news. I've yet to fill the a7iii buffer in real world shooting. I really can't emphasise how satisfying it us to shoot a confetti line at 8-10 fps, get every shot in focus and not fill the buffer.

Had I not traded my d750s for Sony already, I'd be doing it now.

This.

I shot Nikon professionally for the last 10 years. Great cameras, but a slow to move and conservative company with some often bizarre decisons (like limiting the D750 shutter speed to 1/4000s for no reason other than 'buy a D800).

It took me a year to decide to move, and when I did it was to Sony, and a pair of A9's. That was only 3 weeks ago.

If I was making the same call today it would still be Sony. I may well have answered that differently had they not decided to opt for a single slot on £2k and £3k bodies. And yes, XQD cards may have a better MTBF but they do still fail and me trying to explain that to a couple when I've lost a card isn't going to help my business. I know of two colleagues who were waiting for the Nikon announcement. They're now moving to Sony. Again, one simple design decision would have stopped that happening. You can absolutely bet that any Z8 and Z9 will have dual cards, and that tells me Nikon have singularly failed to understand some of who have been buying their cameras.
 
I don't understand how a body that is bigger than the Sony mirrorless has no room for a second slot. This was designed from scratch. The decision on cards was made deliberately, right at the start.
They seem to have made a feature decision from the start that they would only put one card in. It is the only explanation if you are starting with a blank canvas.


If the buffer is as poor as the preview vids show its also bad news. I've yet to fill the a7iii buffer in real world shooting. I really can't emphasise how satisfying it us to shoot a confetti line at 8-10 fps, get every shot in focus and not fill the buffer.
The buffer does seem very poor compared to the opposition, this is where the XQD helps because I saw a hands on test that mentioned the small buffer (I think it was Fro) and said just lifting off the shutter button pretty much clears the buffer because of the speed of the card. Not ideal by any stretch, but you can see why they went XQD. :)

I have a camera (D500) that can do 10fps for 200 shots focusing and changing exposure in between each shot and these two cameras are pitiful in comparison imho.
 
Last edited:
The d750, as much as I loved it, was deliberately hamstrung. It's absolutely daft buy nikon do it over and over again.

There are things sony did to the a7iii to keep the price down but none of them take away from the usability of the camera compared to its more expensive siblings.
 
This.

I shot Nikon professionally for the last 10 years. Great cameras, but a slow to move and conservative company with some often bizarre decisons (like limiting the D750 shutter speed to 1/4000s for no reason other than 'buy a D800).

It took me a year to decide to move, and when I did it was to Sony, and a pair of A9's. That was only 3 weeks ago.

If I was making the same call today it would still be Sony. I may well have answered that differently had they not decided to opt for a single slot on £2k and £3k bodies. And yes, XQD cards may have a better MTBF but they do still fail and me trying to explain that to a couple when I've lost a card isn't going to help my business. I know of two colleagues who were waiting for the Nikon announcement. They're now moving to Sony. Again, one simple design decision would have stopped that happening. You can absolutely bet that any Z8 and Z9 will have dual cards, and that tells me Nikon have singularly failed to understand some of who have been buying their cameras.
It’s actually mind boggling if you think seriously about it,some of these people must lhave their heads in the clouds.. kindergarten thinking
 
Maybe, but I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere in regard to these Nikon's. ;)

If they stick with the same body, which they may not do, but if they do the Nikon chap said there was no space for a second card. Unless this really affects sales then I would think they would stick with the same sized camera body for any subsequent iterations of the Z6 and Z7. If they follow the Sony model even more closely then that would only be minor changes to the same body, so lots of money saved on designing that aspect in the future as you are refining rather than starting from scratch.

Now if they decide to try and take on the a9, which is maybe considered to be more professional ;) than the a7's, and the second slot is considered to be important, then that may necessitate a new slightly larger body. And that would probably be about 18 months away before the next Olympics. For some that could be too long to wait for a Nikon mirrorless with a 2nd card slot. Depends on how important it is to some people, and whether they are willing to stick with Nikon and wait on the off chance they may deliver this feature that they want or not. :thinking:

Nikon will already have designs for the Z8 and Z9, not to mention lower down the range too (though they'll probably be APS-C). As Decigallen says, fundamentals like the single XQD card slot will have been decided long ago. I'd be amazed if higher spec Z prototypes don't have dual slots already.

The more I think about this single card slot thing, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that it's actually a deliberate positioning statement from Nikon, stemming from their long heritage and huge existing user base. Along the lines of...

"You want small and light mirrorless, with video and fast memory? Then you have to accept some compromises. But if you're a true professional stills shooter, and nailing the job 100% is vital, then our DSLRs are for you - and they're not going anywhere."

Edit: It's beginning to make sense, if you're Nikon at least ;)
 
Last edited:
Nikon will already have designs for the Z8 and Z9, not to mention lower down the range too (though they'll probably be APS-C). As Decigallen says, fundamentals like the single XQD card slot will have been decided long ago. I'd be amazed if higher spec Z prototypes don't have dual slots already.

The more I think about this single card slot thing, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that it's actually a deliberate positioning statement from Nikon, stemming from their long heritage and huge existing user base. Along the lines of...

"You want small and light mirrorless, with video and fast memory? Then you have to accept some compromises. But if you're a true professional stills shooter, and nailing the job 100% is vital, then our DSLRs are for you - and they're not going anywhere."
And ,that sort of arrogance could be their downfall
 
Nikon will already have designs for the Z8 and Z9, not to mention lower down the range too (though they'll probably be APS-C). As Decigallen says, fundamentals like the single XQD card slot will have been decided long ago. I'd be amazed if higher spec Z prototypes don't have dual slots already.

The more I think about this single card slot thing, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that it's actually a deliberate positioning statement from Nikon, stemming from their long heritage and huge existing user base. Along the lines of...

"You want small and light mirrorless, with video and fast memory? Then you have to accept some compromises. But if you're a true professional stills shooter, and nailing the job 100% is vital, then our DSLRs are for you - and they're not going anywhere."
I may agree if it wasn't for the a9. That is something they will have to take on sooner or later.

Thom Hogan has said over the years there have been many prototypes out in the field, both FF and cropped, as Nikon decided which route to take. He has hinted at internal conflict within Nikon, because this is obviously a huge turning point for them entering mirrorless FF but more importantly the new mount. They are going for the big money with the focus on quality lenses with the new mount, which is risky as most of their income still comes from entry level DSLR's. And these mirrorless are not that.
 
Maybe that has something to do with the size of the lens mount.
I think it may have more to do with going with XQD rather than SD. SD cards are 32.0×24.0×2.1 mm and XQD are 38.5 mm × 29.8 mm × 3.8 mm, and when you are talking about smaller cameras, mm count, and that doesn't take into account how much space the electronics around the slots take up.
 
After much thought I've decided to keep with my D850 setup for now and not get the Z or jump to Sony.

Nikon Z7
The lack of a 2nd Card Slot is disappointing but I can't say that's a deal breaker
I don't like having to use an adapter and the lenses that are releasing with it are not great
There are a few other minor things but nothing Major

Sony A7RIII
The lack of good weather sealing is a deal breaker - more so than a single card would be
No in camera timelapse - something I use quite often now I have it
Again a few other minor things but nothing major

I really wanted to move entirely to Mirrorless but I don't think I'd be happy with the Z and as someone who spends a lot of time out in bad weather I just couldn't live with the Sony.
 
And ,that sort of arrogance could be their downfall

Could be. Or could be prudence? Unlike Sony etc, Nikon has got to 'manage' the transition to mirrorless and right now, DSLRs represent 100% of their income.

That was always going to be a tricky gig. Canon will be listening and learning... :)
 
After much thought I've decided to keep with my D850 setup for now and not get the Z or jump to Sony.

<snip>

Music to Nikon's ears. But they'll get you next time ;)
 
Back
Top