Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

The entire Sony A7/A9 series qualifies for Sony Professional Support, so in my eyes they are Professional bodies which can be used by Professional users if it meets their needs.
https://campaign.odw.sony-europe.com/dynamic/support/imaging-pro/index.jsp?country=gb&language=en

Anybody thinking that the new Nikon Z6 / Z7's are not designed for Professionals too needs to rethink their logic as spending the best part of £4-5k in this system will rule out most consumers.... after that who is left.... those who can afford the luxury of buying into the new Nikon Z mount system and the Professional market who make a living from selling photographs.


1. Age and country of residence
You must be aged 18 or over, and an individual residing in Germany/Switzerland/Austria/the United Kingdom/the Netherlands/Denmark/Sweden/Finland/Norway/Italy/France/Belgium.

2. Professional status
You must currently be operating as a professional photographer, providing customer invoices as a mandatory requirement of proof. Any documents that prove you work as a professional photographer, such as business registration documents, company statements, employee ID, and business cards should also be submitted. These will be jury-assessed to ensure that they meet the professional standard criteria. Assistants to professional photographers, part-timers and students are NOT qualified to apply.

3. Product qualification
You need to own at least 2 bodies and 3 lenses from below list. In case of body, you need to own at least one camera listed in the A-group.
And these cameras and lenses must have been purchased from an authorized Sony dealer in the European Economic Area (“EEA”) or Switzerland. Please visit https://www.sony.co.uk/locale-selectorand confirm location of authorized Sony dealer by “Find a Store” function.
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Cagey75 said:
I don't get all hung up on 'pro' camera nonsense. Any camera can be a pro body in the right hands. The pro is the user, not the gear. It's someone who makes a living from their photography, I have always seen it that way, not because of the gear they use. I know pro photographers who use old D3s bodies with some D300's as back ups. Most of them will tell you it's the lenses matter most, not the cameras.
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Totes :agree: with all of this :)

My first Pro camera was the D2Xs at a mere £3,500 with the best pro glass then available. I kept that same glass for about 8 years but also changed to using two D7000 cameras (£600 each) some would say very 'amateur' ones, yet they performed better than that old Pro one ever did

I'd be happy to use pretty much ANY current DSLR in a professional manner as they are all so good now when using good glass

As for the new Z bodies, they are obviously both well suited to almost all Pro usage - aside from the 1-card thing which I just couldn't live with as a risk, however small, and that's killed my interest in them :(

Dave
 
Since 1984 when the FG-20 was released I have been interested in every new camera Nikon have produced and I have owned most of them. Until now.
This Z series leaves me colder than stone cold.

Do I think the Z bodies are worth the money ? No!
Do I think the Z lenses are attractively priced? No!
Do I like single card slot? No!
Do I like expensive XQD cards? No!
Do I think the Z bodies are pleasing to the eye? No!
Am I interested in fitting a lumpy adaptor to use my Nikon glass? No!
Do I think this release will revive Nikon’s fortunes? No!

Sorry to sound so negative but my D750 and Nikon lenses please me every time I pick them up. This Z kit, as I said, leaves me stone cold!
 
Christ, the absolute nonsense being spouted here to somehow justify what was a daft move by Nikon. They designed a new camera from the ground up and made a conscious decision to opt for one card. That, on any level, was daft. Charge £100 more if that’s what you need to do but why chop out a part of your market? It’s not being released into a vacuum. Trying to protect your DLSR sales isn’t going to work when you have serious competition elsewhere that may well steal it.

Marketing, definitions of pro cameras.

If pros adopt it widespread then it’s a pro camera. The D750 was a huge hit for wedding and event shooters. Size, performance, price. With one simple spec change Nikon could have nailed these markets as well.

People thinking only a 1D or Dx is a ‘pro’ camera. 2009 called and want their thinking back.
 
KavKav said:
Since 1984 when the FG-20 was released I have been interested in every new camera Nikon have produced and I have owned most of them. Until now.
This Z series leaves me colder than stone cold.

Do I think the Z bodies are worth the money ? No!
Do I think the Z lenses are attractively priced? No!
Do I like single card slot? No!
Do I like expensive XQD cards? No!
Do I think the Z bodies are pleasing to the eye? No!
Am I interested in fitting a lumpy adaptor to use my Nikon glass? No!
Do I think this release will revive Nikon’s fortunes? No!

Sorry to sound so negative but my D750 and Nikon lenses please me every time I pick them up. This Z kit, as I said, leaves me stone cold!
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Yeah but you are a pro, this camera is aim for the enthusiasts. :p
 
Fraser Euan White said:
No, the argument was about the Nikon Z series, you said there shouldn't be a 'target audience' and I disagreed - for enthusiasts (for which this camera is clearly designed) dual card slots in Nikon's opinion isn't as important to incorporate at a given price point as other features they have chosen.

If they aimed the camera at the Pro market then they may have the same opinion as you and incorporate dual card slots higher on 'the must have list' to stop the pro wedding photographer committing 'harry carry' if a memory card gets corrupted.

Either way it's a pointless discussion as it is 'what it is' - I love what I have seen so far and I am looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.
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It depends somewhat on the nature of what you consider "pro" as well, I sell landscapes for a living and whilst I'd preffer duel slots its not something I'd consider to be essential. That said I'm guessing Nikon obviously take the view that if your shooting events professionally their DSLR offerings currently suit you best with the wider range of lenses, they can be adapted of course but even a well performing adapter isn't likely to work quite as well as native use.

I wouldn't be supprised if we see a "Z8" released next year alongside the 24-70mm and 70-200mm F/2.8 zooms, at that point Nikon would probably feel they had the lenses to go for that market more strongly and it seems to be the way of mirrorless to release bodies constantly in order to keep the hype up in the media.
 
decigallen said:
Then the decision to use XQD is all the more foolish. Most enthusiasts/amateurs I know would baulk at paying £25 for a memory card, nevermind £125.
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TBH I'm not a fan of being forced to use XQD, but I bought the D850 and have no choice if I want a backup slot. However, in defence of XQD they are comparatively really no more expensive than similar speed UHS-II SD cards.

Sony 64gb UHS-II Read 300mb/s Write 299mb/s £121
Sony 64gb Read 440 mb/s write 400mb/s £154

OK not the best example but there isn't an exact match, however for 25% more cost you get 47% faster speeds (read at least). On this basis you could argue that XQD is better value than UHS-II SD. ;)

HoppyUK said:
The reaction of professional wedding photographers to the single card slot should tell us something - Nikon is not too bothered about upsetting them.

So why did they do it? Because they had to make some difficult choices, including the impact on cost making it uncompetitive, the increased size creating packaging problems, and if my hunch is right, Sony twisting their arm to use XQD in return for a favourable deal on sensors. Nikon is used to upsetting professionals on the XQD front, but it's obviously a risk they're prepared to take.

Of course Nikon would love professionals to buy their new cameras, but is it essential to success? No. Likewise, if we listen to all the vloggers carping about the lack of a flippy selfie screen (as Cagey points out) the cameras are clearly useless. Some professionals need to get back in line, they're not at the front of the queue.
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Do we know that the sensors are Sony on the Z's?

jonneymendoza said:
Also the d750 has dual card slots and that can be bought for a fiver these days
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Please show me where ;)
 
Cagey75 said:
I don't get all hung up on 'pro' camera nonsense. Any camera can be a pro body in the right hands. The pro is the user, not the gear. It's someone who makes a living from their photography, I have always seen it that way, not because of the gear they use. I know pro photographers who use old D3s bodies with some D300's as back ups. Most of them will tell you it's the lenses matter most, not the cameras.
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What you've said there reminds me of this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Yo3FRPeQw
 
Anyway..............I'm looking forward to seeing an impartial review of these cameras ie image samples, operation (af in particular) and how well the adapter works.

The card slot doesn't bother me.........................I'm allergic to weddings! :exit:

Oh and battery life!
 
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Swiss Toni said:
Anyway..............I'm looking forward to seeing an impartial review of these cameras ie image samples, operation (af in particular) and how well the adapter works.

The card slot doesn't bother me.........................I'm allergic to weddings! :exit:
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im allergic to all my picttues being lost by a card failure
 
Rokinon has announced that its ultra-wide AF 14mm F2.8 lens will arrive for Nikon F-mount in September. The lens, which is already available for Canon EF, is the maker's first auto focus lens for Nikon. The model features 15 glass elements in 10 groups, including two aspherical lenses, four high refractive index lenses, and one extra-low dispersion lens. The glass has Ultra Multi-Coating (UMC) anti-reflective coatings.

I'm guessing they will produce more too and probably in a short period to grab that gap in the market!
 
A professional photographer is someone who earns money from their trade. What 'tool' he uses is irrelevant!

Professional Camera - a camera designed by the manufacturer where the design has been solely influenced by the market it is designed for and the majority of it's sales will be to the professional market.

Prosumer Camera - an extremely well built camera for the advanced enthusiasts; used by many professional photographers. The main market share for this camera will be to enthusiasts and hence profits. Designing this camera the main concerns are those of the enthusiast; it is their wishes that need to be satisfied. (Calling a camera a 'pro level' camera at this point makes the enthusiasts buying it feel good).

A professional photographer using 'camera X' does not make 'camera X' a professional Camera - it is the 'targeted market' chosen by the manufacturer that decides this. (IMO)

Nikon's case - they released the D850 just over 12 months ago; they need to recover the development costs on this camera and keep it selling well for at least another year (Nikon tend to move in two year cycles at the moment). If they release a Z series camera that clearly has the same sensor and also put all the technology (dual card slots etc) from that into it then they would kill the D850.

If you're a Pro and you think two card slots is vital & a wide range of top quality glass then Nikon have a camera suitable for you.

With the current number of Z series lenses available It is clear the professional market at this stage isn't a consideration; if you answer you could use an F mount lens on it then just go and buy an F Mount camera.

I think Nikon will build their z series lenses up over the next couple of years then we will see the release of another Mirror-less body targeted at a different market; by this stage the D850 will be getting 'long in the tooth'.

P.S. Amstrad/Sony/Panasonic et all called their systems 'Hi-Fi' - they quite clearly were not - it was purely marketing.
 
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Years ago I think Canon and Nikon had fairly clearly defined cameras in terms of the pro and prosumer market, in Canon's case it had the A1 and the F1, then later the EOS 3 and the EOS 1(n & v). Then, as time went on and digital arrived, they probably realised the pro DSLR market had two rather than one sectors: the press and sports sector that needed something built like a tank with rapid FPS and the ability to download and send images quickly via internet connection so each image file couldn't really be massive but needed to be of high quality to compensate for this. The other sector were pro photographers who wanted high image quality (which meant larger files) from a robust but not massive and built like a tank DSLR. Hence the 1D and the 5D series being run parallel, with the 6D eventually being launched to fill the keen enthusiast/part-time pro or second body type slot. Basically filling the same sort of slot the A1 and EOS-3 did some years before (although the EOS-3 was far closer to the 5D III in terms of features and spec but not build quality). The top-end DSLR market has changed, and two pro-quality cameras are now required to fill the slot that one could once do.
 
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StewartR said:
That would be so ironic, given the widely perceived benefit of mirrorless cameras that they (and their lenses) can be smaller and lighter than the DSLR equivalent.
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Have just read an article about the manual focus 58mm f/0.95 Noct. It's a monster. And is rumoured to cost.... wait for it... $6,000.

The article is here.
 
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There's a thread at Luminous Landscape that makes for either hilarious or cringeworthy reading depending upon your point of view. Reading it I can't understand how I got banned for calling one of them a fan boy, but there you go. Generally I am saddened by the hyperbole in favour and rubbishing of the competition that goes on in the fanboy mindset. It amazes me that grown ups can act like this.

And no, I'm not knocking Nikon, I had one for a long time and this mindset exists in other brands too and we see it here and more so on other sites but it all just makes me want to shake some people or at least just turn off the computer and not watch this car crash anymore :D

Anyway, sorry to intrude, I've said my piece :D
 
All cameras can be used in an professional environment but as a professional we come to expect a certain level of features, the STANDARD of what is expected moves forward every release and every generations.


80 years ago we don’t expect a metering systems in our cameras.
50 years ago we don’t expect auto focus systems in our cameras.
30 years ago we don’t expect 10fps for sports.
20 (or 25) years ago we don’t expect the camera to be digital.
10 years ago we don’t expect video in our DSLR.
5 years ago we don’t expect touch screen to be a standard on the LCD.


There is this little thing call progress, things move on, stop making excuses when manufacturer drops the ball and say “oh, it’s not for you!”
 
jonneymendoza said:
The Z line will sell decently i recon. it wont tank as some may think!
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I think it'll sell very well.

I don't know how many will be paying £6k for a (big fat) manual 50mm though although they do say on LL that it'll be the equal of an Otus.
 
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woof woof said:
I think it'll sell very well.

I don't know how many will be paying £6k for a (big fat) manual 50mm though although they do say on LL that it'll be the equal of an Otus.
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Is that a confirmed price? £6,000?


Those are some deep pockets enthusiasts?! I hope this enthusiasts market is as big as Nikon hope to be.


A part of me love them doing something like this but it feels half-baked, if Canon can do a 50/1.0 auto focus lens like 15 years ago, with a new mount designed from the ground up, a new focus system, can they not put an auto focus system in the lens? Is it too difficult to overcome that F/0.05?


The other things is that you would think they would put out the most profitable, as in the bestselling lenses right out of the gate to both recoup R&D costs, to keep the company’s cash flow going and to generate sales and market share. Putting out a niche lens like this as their second wave seems a weird move. Sure, put it on the road map to show people you are doing something interesting but you want to be putting out the most used lenses out now to get as many holes in the native line up filled ASAP. A 58/0.95 isn’t really a lens 99% of people would ever dream of nevermind actually buy.
 
HoppyUK said:
The reaction of professional wedding photographers to the single card slot should tell us something - Nikon is not too bothered about upsetting them.

So why did they do it? Because they had to make some difficult choices, including the impact on cost making it uncompetitive, the increased size creating packaging problems, and if my hunch is right, Sony twisting their arm to use XQD in return for a favourable deal on sensors. Nikon is used to upsetting professionals on the XQD front, but it's obviously a risk they're prepared to take.

Of course Nikon would love professionals to buy their new cameras, but is it essential to success? No. Likewise, if we listen to all the vloggers carping about the lack of a flippy selfie screen (as Cagey points out) the cameras are clearly useless. Some professionals need to get back in line, they're not at the front of the queue.
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Totally agree. Nikon cannot be unaware that many professionals will want two card slots - they put two slots in the D600 and the D7000 for heavens sake, so they know there's a demand for it.

But the XQD thing intrigues me. Sony cameras don't use XQD cards, not even on the A7R III or A9. So why would they care about it?
 
jonneymendoza said:
The Z line will sell decently i recon. it wont tank as some may think!
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I don't think anyone's said it will tank tbh, I just think there's a lot of people who find it a bit disappointing and think it could/should have been better, especially for the price.
 
snerkler said:
I don't think anyone's said it will tank tbh, I just think there's a lot of people who find it a bit disappointing and think it could/should have been better, especially for the price.
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Ah but when Uncle Bob walks into Jessops and sees these cameras with that name he loves and respects on them he'll just have to have one (and why not) and the salesman will be very very obliging.
 
StewartR said:
Totally agree. Nikon cannot be unaware that many professionals will want two card slots - they put two slots in the D600 and the D7000 for heavens sake, so they know there's a demand for it.

But the XQD thing intrigues me. Sony cameras don't use XQD cards, not even on the A7R III or A9. So why would they care about it?
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I seriously don't get why Nikon have adopted XQD. Yes they are fast, yes they are supposedly reliable, but are they hoping that others jump on board? So far no-one has leaving Nikon in a bit of vulnerable position. I've read that the new CF (is it Fast or CFExpress or something) will fit XQD slots, but whether they are compatible, or whether you need special dual purpose slots I don't know. If it's the latter it might not be good news for use D850 (and D500 users), and those that buy into the z-system.
 
woof woof said:
Ah but when Uncle Bob walks into Jessops and sees these cameras with that name he loves and respects on them he'll just have to have one (and why not) and the salesman will be very very obliging.
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Hence why it won't tank ;)
 
snerkler said:
I seriously don't get why Nikon have adopted XQD. Yes they are fast, yes they are supposedly reliable, but are they hoping that others jump on board? So far no-one has leaving Nikon in a bit of vulnerable position. I've read that the new CF (is it Fast or CFExpress or something) will fit XQD slots, but whether they are compatible, or whether you need special dual purpose slots I don't know. If it's the latter it might not be good news for use D850 (and D500 users), and those that buy into the z-system.
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XQD and CFexpress are physically compatible, and it's technically possible to upgrade camera firmware to read both. Nikon have apparently said they intend to do this, but I can't find the source for that.
 
StewartR said:
Totally agree. Nikon cannot be unaware that many professionals will want two card slots - they put two slots in the D600 and the D7000 for heavens sake, so they know there's a demand for it.

But the XQD thing intrigues me. Sony cameras don't use XQD cards, not even on the A7R III or A9. So why would they care about it?
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I'm only guessing that Sony has twisted Nikon's arm over the XQD thing. It's the only explanation I can think of TBH, perhaps part of a long term sensor deal going back a few years when Nikon first started using Sony sensors and, against the odds, put XQD cards into their high-end cameras since the D4. The apparent contradiction of Sony not using XQD yet forcing Nikon to, maybe makes sense when it all shakes out to the bottom line long term. XQD needs wide acceptance from a strong brand to catch on - if it does with Nikon, Sony wins; if it doesn't, Sony could pick up lost Nikon sales. Maybe :confused:

The lack of dual card slots is another conundrum. There are some practical reasons that could explain it, but perhaps it's got more to do with Nikon not wanting to cannibalise their ('professional' :LOL:) DSLR sales. It's such an obvious omission, a very deliberate act, there must be a compelling reason from Nikon's point of view.
 
snerkler said:
I don't think anyone's said it will tank tbh, I just think there's a lot of people who find it a bit disappointing and think it could/should have been better, especially for the price.
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What were you expecting? They both look like very capable cameras to me, overall a fair match for Sony on both performance and price. No small achievement from a standing start, and it's just a beginning. I'm not sure we could realistically have expected more and personally I'm relieved that the F-mount adapter works well and the all-new hybrid-AF is good, given Sony set the bar pretty high there. Right now, Nikon must be very pleased with the reaction and the pre-orders piling in.

Nikon is in business to make money, not to produce the ultimate camera and certainly not to kill DSLRs just yet, even if they could. It only has to be 'good enough' to trigger the buy button, while leaving development room for the next upgrade.
 
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HoppyUK said:
What were you expecting? They both look like very capable cameras to me, overall a fair match for Sony on both performance and price. No small achievement from a standing start, and it's just a beginning. I'm not sure we could realistically have expected more and personally I'm relieved the hybrid-AF is as good as it seems to be, given Sony set the bar pretty high there. Right now, Nikon must be very pleased with the reaction and the pre-orders piling in.

Nikon is in business to make money, not to produce the ultimate camera and certainly not to kill the DSLR just yet, even if they could. It only has to be 'good enough' to trigger the buy button, while leaving development room for the next upgrade.
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They do?
 
ukaskew said:
2) suddenly they (Nikon) have a system directly competing with their own established line up, and are probably incredibly cautious in how that will play against their bottom line, after all it goes against their entire strategy to this point. I'd imagine Nikon accountants would want a fairly steady transfer until they get a feel for how this new market sits for them. A wholesale switch by 50% of their pro users will have a huge cost implication in terms of maintaining two systems at the NPS level.
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HoppyUK said:
The lack of dual card slots is another conundrum. There are some practical reasons that could explain it, but perhaps it's got more to do with Nikon not wanting to cannibalise their ('professional' :LOL:) DSLR sales. It's such an obvious omission, a very deliberate act, there must be a compelling reason from Nikon's point of view.
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I was reading some articles on Thom Hogan's site last night because he normally has some interesting things to say about Nikon and Nikon gear, and this quote from Steve Jobs jumped out.
“if you don't cannibalise yourself, someone else will.”
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A sale is a sale, better you get it than open the door for someone else.
 
StewartR said:
XQD and CFexpress are physically compatible, and it's technically possible to upgrade camera firmware to read both. Nikon have apparently said they intend to do this, but I can't find the source for that.
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HoppyUK said:
I'm only guessing that Sony has twisted Nikon's arm over the XQD thing. It's the only explanation I can think of TBH, perhaps part of a long term sensor deal going back a few years when Nikon first started using Sony sensors and, against the odds, put XQD cards into their high-end cameras since the D4. The apparent contradiction of Sony not using XQD yet forcing Nikon to, maybe makes sense when it all shakes out to the bottom line long term. XQD needs wide acceptance from a strong brand to catch on - if it does with Nikon, Sony wins; if it doesn't, Sony could pick up lost Nikon sales. Maybe :confused:

The lack of dual card slots is another conundrum. There are some practical reasons that could explain it, but perhaps it's got more to do with Nikon not wanting to cannibalise their ('professional' :LOL:) DSLR sales. It's such an obvious omission, a very deliberate act, there must be a compelling reason from Nikon's point of view.
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Interesting interview with Nikon UK Product Manager Tim Carter HERE, if you don't want to watch the whole thing go to 4.10.
 
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