Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

Fraser Euan White said:
.........but I absolutely hate the Sony! I have handled one and used one and not in any way shape or form would I buy one - I think it looks Sh*t and looking through the EVF is a horrible experience;There is no pleasure in use whatsoever from my own perspective. I photograph for a hobby and if I have no desire or pleasure in using a camera then it's of no use.

I'm not a Pro so the ultimate performance isn't important; using a camera gives me as much fun as seeing the end result. I have a Rollei 35 with an f2.8 Sonar lens that is just bigger than a match box if I want something to 'slip in my pocket' to take some pics and is much more enjoyable to use than anything Sony could produce!
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I suppose it depends on what you like or don't and you certainly seem to have strong opinions on the matter... maybe too strong but that's a matter for you and your therapist :D

I like things too but they are also tools and therefore a balance has to be struck and some compromises made. As I spent my working life using technology of one sort or another I'm ok with the whole evf mirrorless thing but others and maybe you will die clinging onto their beloved DSLR and cursing Panasonic and Olympus for starting all this.
 
snerkler said:
meh, I’m not convinced they bother with WB settings on those shots, my D750 never had Percy Pig skin tones ;)

Interesting. Does it change on press and then change back if you press again, or do you have to press and hold?

My comment was tongue in cheek ;)
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Yet youll pass judgement and you've never used a Sony 3rd gen for a portrait session.... Let alone a few thousand actuations in various light. tsk tsk.
 
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Claiming a body "not targeted" at any particular segment is a bit bewildering, sure you can say "it is targeting at X market" but no company will purposely not target at any market, that is like cutting of your own nose at profit. You want as big an audience as possible, sell as many camera as possible. The "pros" are the ones really can easily justify getting the right camera for the job if it is the right tool for the job. By omitting a feature that alien a large sector of the market leaving behind what is already a shrinking market, all you are left with a few people with a few thousands in disposable income, why would that be your target audience? Why not target everyone with money, professional or amateur? You don't omit features and say "aim at hobbyist", there is nothing to stop a hobbyist to buy a camera with dual card slots but not having a dual card slots will turn a lot of professionals away.
 
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woof woof said:
I suppose it depends on what you like or don't and you certainly seem to have strong opinions on the matter... maybe too strong but that's a matter for you and your therapist :D

I like things too but they are also tools and therefore a balance has to be struck and some compromises made. As I spent my working life using technology of one sort or another I'm ok with the whole evf mirrorless thing but others and maybe you will die clinging onto their beloved DSLR and cursing Panasonic and Olympus for starting all this.
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Surely they are only tools if they’re part of your job? As a hobbyist surely you should enjoy using the camera and the whole process of taking the picture? If I only liked the end result and wasn’t interested in the process I’d have given up ages ago, it’s not very often I like my end result ;)
 
snerkler said:
Surely they are only tools if they’re part of your job? As a hobbyist surely you should enjoy using the camera and the whole process of taking the picture? If I only liked the end result and wasn’t interested in the process I’d have given up ages ago, it’s not very often I like my end result ;)
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Those people will eventually get a Leica :p
 
snerkler said:
Surely they are only tools if they’re part of your job? As a hobbyist surely you should enjoy using the camera and the whole process of taking the picture? If I only liked the end result and wasn’t interested in the process I’d have given up ages ago, it’s not very often I like my end result ;)
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THIS!

Absolutely perfect description and my thought/feelings entirely!
 
twist said:
Yet youll pass judgement and you've never used a Sony 3rd gen for a portrait session.... Let alone a few thousand actuations in various light. tsk tsk.
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I have owned Sonys, used Sonys and sampled quite a lot of RAW files which give me a better basis than a single studio shot, but granted I haven’t done that ;)

The trouble is we don’t get the luxury of owning every camera or lens so I tend to view A LOT of images, shoot for myself if I can and then try to make a rounded judgement on that. Same goes for lenses that I’m interested in. It’s far from foolproof but it’s the best I can do ;)

Anyway, you’ve owned enough D750’s to know you don’t get Percy pig tones ;)
 
snerkler said:
Surely they are only tools if they’re part of your job? As a hobbyist surely you should enjoy using the camera and the whole process of taking the picture? If I only liked the end result and wasn’t interested in the process I’d have given up ages ago, it’s not very often I like my end result ;)
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I think it's a balance of both, if my camera can't do the job I get frustrated and can't be bothered till next time.
 
Phil V said:
But as I keep saying, the opposite is true, lenses designed specifically for the reduced distance to sensor can be small and fast. What is happening atm is that lenses designed for a DSLR are having a spacer added to their mount which allows a lens design to be bodged to fit.
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The whole small size and weight thing with mirrorless has always been a bit of an illusion - as we're now seeing. If there is a common denominator, size and weight are dictated by sensor size and it's very possible to make a small and light DSLR (eg entry-level Nikons and Canons) with small slow-aperture lenses to go with them.

The 'advantage' of the short back-focus possible with mirrorless lenses is also proving difficult to realise, because when the lens' exit pupil is very close to the sensor, vignetting (already a problem with wide-angles) becomes a serious issue. And with digital (as opposed to film) sensors don't respond well to light striking them at narrow angles. Again, vignetting is exaggerated but more serious is the way flare develops in the stack of filters sitting in front. This has been a major problem for users of some prestige lenses like Leica and Zeiss super-wides adapted to Sony FF bodies.

Over the last several decades, lens designers have perfected retrofocus/inverted-telephoto wide-angles with an artificially long back-focus to a very high standard, because they had to for SLRs and DSLRs. As it turns out, this also solves a few headaches with mirrorless too.
 
snerkler said:
Surely they are only tools if they’re part of your job? As a hobbyist surely you should enjoy using the camera and the whole process of taking the picture? If I only liked the end result and wasn’t interested in the process I’d have given up ages ago, it’s not very often I like my end result ;)
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My primary aim is to create a picture and used for that purpose cameras are in part a tool, a nice tool and I enjoy the process but there is still that primary function. I used to paint and draw and I did these things before I got my first camera but even then there were nice brushes, nice pencils etc. There has to be a balance between achieving the aim and enjoying it all but for me it definitely tilts a bit in favour of achieving the aim otherwise like golf it's a good walk ruined.
 
twist said:
I think it's a balance of both, if my camera can't do the job I get frustrated and can't be bothered till next time.
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True, but that still doesn’t make it a tool per se for me (y)
 
snerkler said:
I have owned Sonys, used Sonys and sampled quite a lot of RAW files which give me a better basis than a single studio shot, but granted I haven’t done that ;)

The trouble is we don’t get the luxury of owning every camera or lens so I tend to view A LOT of images, shoot for myself if I can and then try to make a rounded judgement on that. Same goes for lenses that I’m interested in. It’s far from foolproof but it’s the best I can do ;)

Anyway, you’ve owned enough D750’s to know you don’t get Percy pig tones ;)
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Ah, but you haven't shot the latest cameras for extended periods, you're talking a77ii since you've used a Sony extensively.... In all seriousness though they have come a long way. You know I loved my d750 and colour and hated Sony colour but things have changed and I find the colour inbetween canikon, I don't find I'm struggling with Sony colour in post or even adjusting at importing and the colour at high ISO is much better than the d750.... Sensor tech moves on and I bet the new Nikon's also hold the colour better at high ISO.
 
woof woof said:
Yup, or another nice film camera you can fondle on your walk in the countryside / the streets of your town or wherever you like to fondle your man toy.
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What is wrong with having an appreciation for 'the camera'? - some (definitely not Sony) are a marvel of miniature mechanical engineering. It's not any different from your 'love' of the picture it produces! (You are so 'protective' over Sony it shows that the 'end result' isn't the most important thing for you?)
 
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twist said:
Ah, but you haven't shot the latest cameras for extended periods, you're talking a77ii since you've used a Sony extensively.... In all seriousness though they have come a long way. You know I loved my d750 and colour and hated Sony colour but things have changed and I find the colour inbetween canikon, I don't find I'm struggling with Sony colour in post or even adjusting at importing and the colour at high ISO is much better than the d750.... Sensor tech moves on and I bet the new Nikon's also hold the colour better at high ISO.
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The mark iii’s are certainly a huge improvement from what I’ve seen.

At the end of the day we all have our preferences, and we have the luxury of software that allows us to change anything we don’t like. Besides, lenses also influence colour to an extent so it’s never going to be the same across the board (y)
 
Raymond Lin said:
Claiming a body "not targeted" at any particular segment is a bit bewildering, sure you can say "it is targeting at X market" but no company will purposely not target at any market, that is like cutting of your own nose at profit. You want as big an audience as possible, sell as many camera as possible. The "pros" are the ones really can easily justify getting the right camera for the job if it is the right tool for the job. By omitting a feature that alien a large sector of the market leaving behind what is already a shrinking market, all you are left with a few people with a few thousands in disposable income, why would that be your target audience? Why not target everyone with money, professional or amateur? You don't omit features and say "aim at hobbyist", there is nothing to stop a hobbyist to buy a camera with dual card slots but not having a dual card slots will turn a lot of professionals away.
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Camera manufacturers have never targeted professionals as primary buyers with anything except their top-end models (eg Nikon D5, Canon 1DX etc). That's been true for ever, even when there was a large and prosperous pro sector to go at - professionals have always been heavily outnumbered by amateur enthusiasts. Of course, they want to sell to as wide an audience as possible, but the new Nikon Z6 and Z7 are aimed primarily at top-end amateur enthusiasts, specifically existing Nikon DSLR users with a bit of GAS.

ps I agree dual card slots is disappointing, if perhaps not the show-stopper some wedding shooters might think. I believe Nikon must have had their hands tied on that, one way or another.
 
HoppyUK said:
Camera manufacturers have never targeted professionals as primary buyers with anything except their top-end models (eg Nikon D5, Canon 1DX etc). That's been true for ever, even when there was a large and prosperous pro sector to go at - professionals have always been heavily outnumbered by amateur enthusiasts. Of course, they want to sell to as wide an audience as possible, but the new Nikon Z6 and Z7 are aimed primarily at top-end amateur enthusiasts, specifically existing Nikon DSLR users with a bit of GAS.

ps I agree dual card slots is disappointing, if perhaps not the show-stopper some wedding shooters might think. I believe Nikon must have had their hands tied on that, one way or another.
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Ahem.

weDc9TG.png
 
Raymond Lin said:
Ahem.

weDc9TG.png
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Haha that's a completely meaningless marketing label designed to flatter the gullible.

If you look at the way the word 'pro' this and 'pro' that is added to any number of rubbish products, you could make a very good case for it meaning exactly the opposite.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Haha that's a completely meaningless marketing label designed to flatter the gullible.

If you look at the way the word 'pro' this and 'pro' that is added to any number of rubbish products, you could make a very good case for it meaning exactly the opposite.
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You claimed Canon only targeted the 1D line for professionals.

I posted their website showing them pushing the 5D line for professionals.

Totally contradict your claim ? no? Meaningless? It's not Pro this and Pro that.

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/dslr-cameras/

They don't put the 200D behind the link for DSLR for Professionals.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
You claimed Canon only targeted the 1D line for professionals.

I posted their website showing them pushing the 5D line for professionals.

Totally contradict your claim ? no? Meaningless? It's not Pro this and Pro that.

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/dslr-cameras/

They don't put the 200D behind the link for DSLR for Professionals not Enthusiasts.
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Just how many professional photographers are there in your local area? Do you seriously think they add up to a viable primary market for these new Nikon cameras which are already shipping by the thousand?

It gives me no pleasure to say this, but professional photographers are a dying breed, already extinct in most traditional sectors.
 
HoppyUK said:
Just how many professional photographers are there in your local area? Do you seriously think they add up to a viable primary market for these new Nikon cameras which are already shipping by the thousand?

It gives me no pleasure to say this, but professional photographers are a dying breed, already extinct in most traditional sectors.
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So are we moving the goal post now we have established that Canon also label more than just their Top Line 1D series to Professionals?

Good, then we are done.
 
Raymond Lin said:
They don't put the 200D behind the link for DSLR for Professionals.
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That's actually an attractive little camera for us non-pros! I've eyed it a few times. Looks to be a mini-80D. If they made little bodies like that weather sealed, added 4K and more AF points, it'd kill IMO! They could double the price and still sell bucket loads.
 
Cagey75 said:
That's actually an attractive little camera for us non-pros! I've eyed it a few times. Looks to be a mini-80D. If they made little bodies like that weather sealed, added 4K and more AF points, it'd kill IMO! They could double the price and still sell bucket loads.
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BVS (travel landscape tog) uses it as his vlog camera, It's a perfectly capable camera. It's probably better than my old 30D on many levels.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Ahem.

weDc9TG.png
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You really need to get over this Raymond! Just accept it is a marketing ploy by Canon to get serious enthusiasts to buy the camera in the belief they are buying into a 'Pro Grade' system! (The price point also indicates the target market is enthusiast). The flagship 1D camera is the one that is designed for professional use with enthusiasts considerations in second place.( & twice the price for the body?)
 
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Raymond Lin said:
BVS (travel landscape tog) uses it as his vlog camera, It's a perfectly capable camera. It's probably better than my old 30D on many levels.
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It would be an ideal second body, or as you say, travel camera for a Canon shooter. I wonder why many more don't own one, they're cheap as chips.
 
Choosing the 'pro' filter on the Nikon DSLR product range gives you the D500, D750, D850, D810, D5, DF and the F6. These bodies also qualify you for NPS.
 
decigallen said:
Choosing the 'pro' filter on the Nikon DSLR product range gives you the D500, D750, D850, D810, D5, DF and the F6. These bodies also qualify you for NPS.
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I remember joining that with my D800E and 2.8 zooms .... Ah ... when I had money to burn ...:D

So, if you buy a new D800, D800E or D4 you don't qualify now?
 
Fraser Euan White said:
You really need to get over this Raymond! Just accept it is a marketing ploy by Canon to get serious enthusiasts to buy the camera in the belief they are buying into a 'Pro Grade' system! (The price point also indicates the target market is enthusiast). The flagship 1D camera is the one that is designed for professional use with enthusiasts considerations in second place.
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There is nothing to "get over"

You say 5D is not Professional, you claim Canon don't say this is a Professional.

I prove that Canon does just that, there is nothing more to it. End of story really.

As for Nikon not targeting this as Professionals, like I said, why would they choose to not target at anyone? How would adding a feature alienate hobbyist if this is the main market they are going for?

Would any hobbyist go "Oh no, it has dual card slots, it must be for Pros, that's not for me, I'll keep my money!"

"Oh no, it has weather sealing, I am a hobbyist and I baby my camera, i don't need weather sealing, this isn't a camera for me!"

It reminds me when 5D2 came out and it shoots video and a bunch of people went "I don't want that!!! Give me a camera without video please!"

Would a hobbyist turn away from a camera because of a feature? (like below?)

All I can say is that those people were living in the past, same as those who thinks dual card slots isn't required. Dual cards is now pretty much expected and standard now, especially at this price point, much like having a good auto focus, that is expected too. It's not just at the professional level, it's also at a price point level.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
As for Nikon not targeting this as Professionals, like I said, why would they choose to not target at anyone? How would adding a feature alienate hobbyist if this is the main market they are going for?

Would any hobbyist go "Oh no, it has dual card slots, it must be for Pros, that's not for me, I'll keep my money!"

"Oh no, it has weather sealing, I am a hobbyist and I baby my camera, i don't need weather sealing, this isn't a camera for me!"
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Those things add to the price I imagine. To keep it mainstream, get more 'prosumers' in, they need the price to be attractive from the off. Even a bump of a couple hundred bucks will be enough to turn 1000's away.

If Panasonic didn't try going after a higher end market with the G9, which is triple the price of the G80 and not 3x better in anyway, they'd have lured in many more buyers IMO, but then they got the upper end buyers by doing just that. I wonder which actually works out for the better in the end? I'd have a G9 right now myself if it had been only double the price
 
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Fraser Euan White said:
You really need to get over this Raymond! Just accept it is a marketing ploy by Canon to get serious enthusiasts to buy the camera in the belief they are buying into a 'Pro Grade' system! (The price point also indicates the target market is enthusiast). The flagship 1D camera is the one that is designed for professional use with enthusiasts considerations in second place.( & twice the price for the body?)
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For many professional photographers, the 1D/D5 flagship isn't the most suitable camera for the job.

At the moment, the most suitable Nikon camera for my professional needs is the D750. The D5 is back-breakingly heavy for 12-14 hour shoots and the D850 has too many mp for me. The D750, has the perfect sensor size and is lighter than the other two. But then the D5 is perfect for some of my press photographer friends. And the landscapers I know love the D850. A sports photographer friend of mine shoots mostly D500 and D5 these days. Are they more pro than me? Should we all be shooting D5 bodies if we're pros? The D850 and D750 aren't enthusiast cameras wrapped up in hype and marketing, they are capable professional cameras.
 
Cagey75 said:
I remember joining that with my D800E and 2.8 zooms .... Ah ... when I had money to burn ...:D

So, if you buy a new D800, D800E or D4 you don't qualify now?
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You do still qualify, yes. The listed pro bodies are just those still in production and the only technically 'new' pro stock.
 
Cagey75 said:
Those things add to the price I imagine. To keep it mainstream, get more 'prosumers' in, they need the price to be attractive from the off. Even a bump of a couple hundred bucks will be enough to turn 1000's away
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When you are spending £2k, £3.3k…..for a hobby, £200 is not an obstacle. One clearly has a large disposable income if this is the camera you are looking to buy.
 
Raymond Lin said:
When you are spending £2k, £3.3k…..for a hobby, £200 is not an obstacle. One clearly has a large disposable income if this is the camera you are looking to buy.
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Not really, many non pros will have to save to buy these cameras to begin with, and they will no doubt want a lens to go with, every £100 counts. And it would certainly not be fair to say 'well, then they shouldn't be looking at these cameras' because why shouldn't they? Many 'enthusiasts' [I'm really hating all these categories, we're all bloody photographers end of the day] want the same things in a camera as the pros do. They don't see a new camera as a money making tool, they just want to enjoy all the new tech, benefit from the better low light and AF, they will make plenty good use of it all in their own right. They just may not have the spends to jump on it, and a few hundred quid might just dampen their dreams. Been there, wore the Tee, it's still around my neck
 
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Cagey75 said:
Not really, many non pros will have to save to buy these cameras to begin with, and they will no doubt want a lens to go with, every £100 counts.
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I can't speak for everyone but I personally would pay extra to get the IMPORTANT feature that I want.
 
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