Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

[snerkler]

The more pics I see the uglier it gets. I know looks aren’t everything, and guess that’s why the wife hasn’t left me yet.

I actually think it looks good, about the only positive thing I can say about it. Well that and weather sealing

O dear.

View: https://youtu.be/iUii9dTwPkw


The AF sucks and the image stabilization is only half as good as Sony.

What's the point in that larger mount then?

I take all this with a pinch of salt, it's pre-production. I get that it's poor that they send out pre-production that aren't up to scratch but I'll wait until full release. If they're this bad on full release then that really will be bad.

Ok, the one card thing, people need to get over fast. It's there, like it or not. I don't remember any such fuss when the 6D mkII came out, it was a bit ho-hum,. but none of this over inflated nonsense about it. The Z cameras have one slot ... we get it! But the rest is far worse IMO. The awful lag I've seen on the live view, the non existence of eye tracking AF [ok, something we never had in the past, but my mid range M43 cam has it!] the 3-axis only for non Z lenses - how about don't claim 5-axis as a feature if it only works for natives Nikon!? - the inability for touch focus when looking through the VF - why?? it would be easy to make it an option! And people are raving about the ergonomics, jeez, i've posted a few times now how it pales towards high end M43 bodies, they could have done so much better in so many ways. No flip screen ... that is a puzzler, I personally don't give a tosh about that, but I know a bazillion vloggers were awaiting it. They're out. And the adapter being a $300+ add on?? LOL ... I thought these cameras were shipping with the adapter originally, but now finding it's a separate purchase at that price, they can really go get f**ked

I can't get my noodle round why IBIS is affected by lenses, it just doesn't make sense to me. The fact it's called IN BODY image stabilisation implies to me that it has noting to do with the lens, and is controlled by the body. Therefore I would expect it to behave exactly the same no matter what you stick on the front. Can anyone explain this to me?

 

[Deleted member 66768]

O dear.

View: https://youtu.be/iUii9dTwPkw


The AF sucks and the image stabilization is only half as good as Sony.

What's the point in that larger mount then?

Scathing to put it mildly. That autofocus looks WORSE than the A7R2 tbh

 

[chris malcolm]

This is what I'd expect from a camera company moving into a new technology area for the first time. Or indeed a computer company, smartphone, car, etc.. It's why I usually avoid buying the first model of a new kind of anything. Of course if they had really good intelligent managers who listened carefully to the engineers and actually understood them, who listened carefully to the programmers and actually understood them, who listened carefully to their professional photographer beta testers and actually understood them, who refused to be bullied by the accountants and marketing strategists who so hate their tidy little calendars to be upset, and so on.

But what big company ever has that kind of managers? As soon as you get big enough to be paying your managers huge salaries your management gets overwhelmed by greedy bullies and charming con-men. The first model of a new kind in a competitive market is always bullied into production way too soon.

 

[chuckles]

Wonder what the global ratio of camera failure through poor/no weather-sealing to card failure is?

I'm hoping the next iteration will have a 4 slot RAID5 configuration with "hot spare" replacement

I can't get my noodle round why IBIS is affected by lenses, it just doesn't make sense to me. The fact it's called IN BODY image stabilisation implies to me that it has noting to do with the lens, and is controlled by the body. Therefore I would expect it to behave exactly the same no matter what you stick on the front. Can anyone explain this to me?

Agree totally

 

[the black fox]

Trouble is the way I see it they have just viewed Sony as there market competition and totally dismissed the the rest of the mirrorless market and the different ways it’s being attacked , the canon M series is improving all the time ,they just need better dedicated lenses , Panasonic and Olympus are streets ahead in functionality on there MFT systems , which is improving all the time .

Taking a major gamble on changing lens mount to without a fully functioning line up may well be there downfall , even the single card slot isn’t a deal breaker for most converts to a new system but FFS have they never heard of a loss leader to entice the general public into a new system 3.5 k for something that may or may not be a viable system is a sodding joke then add lenses and adaptors on top of that .

If it had hit the market at around the £1000 pound/ dollars bracket with a couple of extras thrown in , then I think there might have been a lot of oohs and ahhs but taking a gamble on a camera system that might or might not work that costs nearly as much as a new car ,is a bridge to far . Someone at Nikon h.q is going to get the sack over this debacle

 

[toohuge]

^ agreed a good honest view.


I like their reviews but it did grate when he said the focal length changes with the dx crop!

 

[the black fox]

Xmas 2019 Argos sale price on a Nikon zzzzzz wil be £150 with a free adaptor

 

[SFTPhotography]

And ,that sort of arrogance could be their downfall

Why though - if you want a dual write camera (I do) and aren’t interested in video they have just the body - the d850.

It’s an odd decision but they make a great camera that answers all the criticism in this thread - the d850

 

[snerkler]

This is what I'd expect from a camera company moving into a new technology area for the first time. Or indeed a computer company, smartphone, car, etc.. It's why I usually avoid buying the first model of a new kind of anything.

See this I find no excuse. Basically what they're saying by doing this is lets use consumers do the beta testing whilst we get this right and make a few quid in the process. I've said it before, but if they are going to develop a mark ii and mark iii which will inevitably be better why not what until they have just made it better? Releasing something as half baked as this and charging those prices is just poor, plain poor. If they said, OK we've done our best for now, here's a Z6 for £1k to get us started then fair enough. But they've priced it against the Sony A7iii which is by far a better camera (barring weather sealing) and expect people to be happy

 

[wibbly]

Basically what they're saying by doing this is lets use consumers do the beta testing whilst we get this right and make a few quid in the process.

That's called kaizen isn't it. Fuji have been doing it for years with their camera releases

 

[DG Phototraining]

I guess all I was really wanting from the Z6 was that it was similar to my D750s but silent, and ideally with eye tracking as my pals with the A9 tell me that's FAB

Smaller lighter was never an issue unless it was very small, which it can't be as a FF camera, so I didn't really want that much from it so long as it had 2 BLOODY CARDS SLOTS !!!

So, until one comes along that does I'll happily continue with the D750 until they break, probably more than 2 years before that happens as they are both only on about 50,000 activations

Dave

 

[decigallen]

Why though - if you want a dual write camera (I do) and aren’t interested in video they have just the body - the d850.

It’s an odd decision but they make a great camera that answers all the criticism in this thread - the d850

The d850 is not the answer for those who want a small/light ff camera with (proper) silent shooting, and evf. It's also not the answer to those who want a 24mp camera. For me, and a lot of pros, even the d750 is a better option than the d850.

 

[decigallen]

Boom! Like them or not, and I think they are OK, this is going to hit Nikon, because they are v popular. 1M+ subscribers. Even in the short time they had use of the camera they seem to have got a lot done with regards to testing. Does make you think how others at some of these events have been so positive. I doubt they will be at the top of lists for future Nikon events.

DPReview also put up a slightly more critical 'Z7 First Impressions Review'.

I think the niggles are starting to get around, and the one card slot is always mentioned. There is lots of talk of pre-production, but then if it is not very close to how it will be for users don't show it to the media. There is also talk of fixing things in Firmware updates, but that is not something Nikon is known for, so to suddenly get as active as some other manufacturers have been may be a tad optimistic. Time will tell. Obviously some hardware things will not be able to be fixed with a Firmware update. The targets were the a7III and the a7RIII but these camera seem to be around the level between versions 1+2 of those cameras from all the 'hands on' reports so far. They seriously need to get these camera better before the in depth reviews start to be done if that is possible.

I think the a7iii caught them by surprise (as us all). They've developed a camera that seems to be a minor upgrade on an a7ii. That's probably what they expected the a7iii to be. Nikon probably expected to be competing against a single card camera with average focusing and battery life.

Sony's decision to cannibalise their a9 was apple-esque and will prove to be the correct one long-term.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The d850 is not the answer for those who want a small/light ff camera with (proper) silent shooting, and evf. It's also not the answer to those who want a 24mp camera. For me, and a lot of pros, even the d750 is a better option than the d850.

I haven't got a D850 but the D810 is silent - the D850 has live view and tilt screen plus OVF - it's fine.

 

[DG Phototraining]

I haven't got a D850 but the D810 is silent - the D850 has live view and tilt screen plus OVF - it's fine.

I used the D850 on a recent DCW mag 'Shootout' I was invited to, it just seemed like a slightly different (but not better) version of my D750 but with far too many pixels for my needs, strangely that 'review' didn't go into the mag

If I was shooting landscapes or portraits for BIG prints though it'd be my camera of choice short of MF

Dave

 

[SFTPhotography]

If I was shooting landscapes or portraits for BIG prints though it'd be my camera of choice short of MF

Dave

That's what I shoot and if I could afford phase one and schneider lens's that is all I would shoot with

 

[woof woof]

See this I find no excuse. Basically what they're saying by doing this is lets use consumers do the beta testing whilst we get this right and make a few quid in the process. I've said it before, but if they are going to develop a mark ii and mark iii which will inevitably be better why not what until they have just made it better? Releasing something as half baked as this and charging those prices is just poor, plain poor. If they said, OK we've done our best for now, here's a Z6 for £1k to get us started then fair enough. But they've priced it against the Sony A7iii which is by far a better camera (barring weather sealing) and expect people to be happy

The Nikons are more expensive aren't they? Maybe Sony MKII rivalling products for more than MKIII money.

Good luck to them and these will possibly sell very well but maybe more to those will lens collections and those who simply must have a Nikon and there will be enough of each.

 

[SFTPhotography]

See this I find no excuse. Basically what they're saying by doing this is lets use consumers do the beta testing whilst we get this right and make a few quid in the process. I've said it before, but if they are going to develop a mark ii and mark iii which will inevitably be better why not what until they have just made it better? Releasing something as half baked as this and charging those prices is just poor, plain poor. If they said, OK we've done our best for now, here's a Z6 for £1k to get us started then fair enough. But they've priced it against the Sony A7iii which is by far a better camera (barring weather sealing) and expect people to be happy

Except weather sealing is a big deal - particularly for outdoor shooters - factor in F mount lens compatibility, a trusted name and yes it will sell well. I'd pay a premium for a weather sealed camera. Plus the bigger size makes it more for me than the Sony.

If Sony built a larger body, sealed it up I'd maybe consider it.

 

[f/1.2]

I do love nikon ergonomics. But have to say I adore the sonys. I've shot 2 wet weddings since getting them, taking no more precautions than what I'd do with the d750 and had no bother.

I've the 35 art and it's great on sony but my favourite lenses are my 25 and 85 batis lenses. The Sony 85 and 55 are great too. The art is actually the only one I'm not truly in love with because it's too big and heavy. I'd ditch it in a heartbeat for a good 1.8 sony or zeiss.

I may be worrying about nothing have spoke to a few other photographers who have switched to Sony and been very happy. For me though I am very ingrained in the Nikon system and it's a tough decision to switch. Have tried switching before I bought a 6d at one point and hated it and an A7S and didn't like that either.

I really like the Sigma Art lenses but as you say they are big and may be a bit unbalanced on a smaller body. Looking at the Sony lens options, have no doubt they have some decent glass but it just seems a backwards step to go back to f/1.8 lenses when I have been using f/1.4 glass for so long. Of course there is not that big a difference but am so used to the Nikon system and having f/1.4 lenses that am struggling with switching.

What I really probably want is everything that my D750's & D850's offer but with the added advantaged that the mirrorless options offer, but I just can't find something that ticks all the boxes.

I probably need to just bite the bullet, pick something and give it a go. Am now thinking I might just pick up one body and a lens and see how I get on though before jumping in and changing everything at once.

 

[Deleted member 66768]

I may be worrying about nothing have spoke to a few other photographers who have switched to Sony and been very happy. For me though I am very ingrained in the Nikon system and it's a tough decision to switch. Have tried switching before I bought a 6d at one point and hated it and an A7S and didn't like that either.

I really like the Sigma Art lenses but as you say they are big and may be a bit unbalanced on a smaller body. Looking at the Sony lens options, have no doubt they have some decent glass but it just seems a backwards step to go back to f/1.8 lenses when I have been using f/1.4 glass for so long. Of course there is not that big a difference but am so used to the Nikon system and having f/1.4 lenses that am struggling with switching.

What I really probably want is everything that my D750's & D850's offer but with the added advantaged that the mirrorless options offer, but I just can't find something that ticks all the boxes.

I probably need to just bite the bullet, pick something and give it a go. Am now thinking I might just pick up one body and a lens and see how I get on though before jumping in and changing everything at once.

Yeah Tommy that would be wise. My first wedding all Sony, about 30 minutes in I was like - maybe this wasn't the right choice. By the speeches I was absolutely loving it and knew I'd made the right choice

It does take awhile to get used to such a big change in shooting! More than welcome to try my A7IIIs lad anytime

 

[woof woof]

I really like the Sigma Art lenses but as you say they are big and may be a bit unbalanced on a smaller body. Looking at the Sony lens options, have no doubt they have some decent glass but it just seems a backwards step to go back to f/1.8 lenses when I have been using f/1.4 glass for so long. Of course there is not that big a difference but am so used to the Nikon system and having f/1.4 lenses that am struggling with switching.

I know it's dangerous to generalise and it's best to talk specifics but traditionally some f1.4 options have been the more expensive options but also in some ways weaker than the f1.8 alternatives. If you need f1.4 for light or separation / bokeh reasons then fair enough but if the attachment to f1.4 is more emotional than actual and real need then maybe it's time for a rethink.

For example, I used to love my Sigma 50 and 85mm f1.4's but I have to admit that my Sony 55mm and 85mm f1.8's are sharper from f1.8 and better across the frame. I was always impressed with the quality of the Sony 55mm f1.8, I think it really is a cutting edge SOTA lens and having had the 85mm for just a few days I have to say that it too seems to be a very good lens, despite neither of these being f1.4's

And a PS.
I'm new to face tracking but in some situations I can see it being a big advantage (you just concentrate on the subject and the picture composition and leave the camera to sort the focus on your subject almost anywhere in the frame) and although I've never used eye detect I can now see and understand why some feel it is indeed a "game changer."

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm struggling to find an upside to this. I don't accept the pre-production caveats - they always say that regardless, it's just a fall-back excuse. Especially when Nikon is simultaneously claiming that full production has already started and running at 20,000 Z7 units per month.

Is it possible that the Northrups had the camera settings wrong, like release-priority rather than focus-priority? Would that have made any difference? Did they double-check with a Nikon rep that they'd got everything right on an unfamiliar new camera? Clutching at straws here...

 

[Fraser Euan White]

Yeap - probably give mirror-less a miss for the time being. Better to get a D850.

 

[redhed17]

I really like the Sigma Art lenses but as you say they are big and may be a bit unbalanced on a smaller body. Looking at the Sony lens options, have no doubt they have some decent glass but it just seems a backwards step to go back to f/1.8 lenses when I have been using f/1.4 glass for so long. Of course there is not that big a difference but am so used to the Nikon system and having f/1.4 lenses that am struggling with switching.

What I really probably want is everything that my D750's & D850's offer but with the added advantaged that the mirrorless options offer, but I just can't find something that ticks all the boxes.

I probably need to just bite the bullet, pick something and give it a go. Am now thinking I might just pick up one body and a lens and see how I get on though before jumping in and changing everything at once.

Sounds like one of these Z cameras may be for you if you can live with the limitations and design choices to try out. With the adapter to use the lenses that you own. If you click with the system then you could get the other if you want to stick with two cameras. Depends if you are in any hurry though. I'd wait for proper reviews. If it turns out that the Nikon's are flawed (if you feel they are) in too many ways for you, then the Sony's, or anything else, will only be getting cheaper. And it is not as if you still can't be taking pics while you wait.

The new lenses for the Z Mount are expensive, but apparently they have been designed to be sharp wide open, and the short flange distance is apparently a benefit for get the image sharp across the frame. Testing will tell.

 

[redhed17]

I'm struggling to find an upside to this. I don't accept the pre-production caveats - they always say that regardless, it's just a fall-back excuse. Especially when Nikon is simultaneously claiming that full production has already started and running at 20,000 Z7 units per month.

Is it possible that the Northrups had the camera settings wrong, like release-priority rather than focus-priority? Would that have made any difference? Did they double-check with a Nikon rep that they'd got everything right on an unfamiliar new camera? Clutching at straws here...

I think the Northrups are very experienced Nikon users, have experience of other systems with which to compare, and seem to have been a bit more thorough than other people. Imho, you can only get that done in an hour or two if you can get through the settings quickly, and that comes from experience. Again, proper reviews from a number of trusted places will put these cameras and lenses in perspective.

 

[f/1.2]

Yeah Tommy that would be wise. My first wedding all Sony, about 30 minutes in I was like - maybe this wasn't the right choice. By the speeches I was absolutely loving it and knew I'd made the right choice

It does take awhile to get used to such a big change in shooting! More than welcome to try my A7IIIs lad anytime

Cheers Tony, but I probably need to play with one for a couple of weeks to see if its the right way for me to go or not. I guess at the end of the day could always buy and sell on again if its not a good fit for me. The A9 is probably the one I want, the guy in Calumet would have lent me one but they have no stock, he is going to find out of the Sony rep can do anything for me. I think I might just buy an A7III for now and maybe see if I can beg borrow or steal an A9 worst case scenario could probably rent one for a week and see what hits the button. If they suit will probably switch to 2 x A9's for me and 2 X A7III's for the missus ditch our D750's and just keep our D850's.

I know it's dangerous to generalise and it's best to talk specifics but traditionally some f1.4 options have been the more expensive options but also in some ways weaker than the f1.8 alternatives. If you need f1.4 for light or separation / bokeh reasons then fair enough but if the attachment to f1.4 is more emotional than actual and real need then maybe it's time for a rethink.

For example, I used to love my Sigma 50 and 85mm f1.4's but I have to admit that my Sony 55mm and 85mm f1.8's are sharper from f1.8 and better across the frame. I was always impressed with the quality of the Sony 55mm f1.8, I think it really is a cutting edge SOTA lens and having had the 85mm for just a few days I have to say that it too seems to be a very good lens, despite neither of these being f1.4's

And a PS.
I'm new to face tracking but in some situations I can see it being a big advantage (you just concentrate on the subject and the picture composition and leave the camera to sort the focus on your subject almost anywhere in the frame) and although I've never used eye detect I can now see and understand why some feel it is indeed a "game changer."

Yeah but they ain't much good at f/1.4 sorry couldn't resist. I am not really concerned about corner sharpness tbh. I have the Siggy Art 20, 35 & 50 and for me they have a look I just like.

 

[woof woof]

Yeah but they ain't much good at f/1.4 sorry couldn't resist. I am not really concerned about corner sharpness tbh. I have the Siggy Art 20, 35 & 50 and for me they have a look I just like.

I have always had wide aperture lenses that I like for the look they give at their widest apertures and I have others that are just excellent across the frame. Horses for courses I suppose. All I'm saying is that sometimes other factors can kick in like GAS and I think it's important to think about why we like the kit we like and then come to an informed decision

 

[Fraser Euan White]

The d850 is not the answer for those who want a small/light ff camera with (proper) silent shooting, and evf. It's also not the answer to those who want a 24mp camera. For me, and a lot of pros, even the d750 is a better option than the d850.

I 'get' some of the advantages/disadvantages of mirror-less but I really don't get this weight saving lark between FF mirror-less and DSLR - it's next to FA with the lenses attached! Further to this something like the Sony is no where near as comfortable to hold as the grip is so small.

(..................and yes; I have carried a camera all day for many days)

 

[Radiohead]

I haven't got a D850 but the D810 is silent - the D850 has live view and tilt screen plus OVF - it's fine.

It’s not even close to be truly silent like mirrorless. The live view absolutely blows, both in isolation and comparison.

In these respects it’s like comparing a Ford Sierra with a McLaren.

This idea that ‘it’s fine, the D850 is there’ just falls flat for me. It has none of the reasons people want mirrorless.

 

[f/1.2]

I 'get' some of the advantages/disadvantages of mirror-less but I really don't get this weight saving lark between FF mirror-less and DSLR - it's next to FA with the lenses attached!

(..................and yes; I have carried a camera all day for many days)

Different strokes for different folks I guess. When you are carrying around gear for 12 hours a day a few times a week any weight saving can be an advantage and there are plenty of light weight lens options available for mirrorless. For me the weight saving isn't the advantage the evf and more advance autofocus are the advantages and the silent shooting option the A9 offers is definitely a biggy for me although that may not be so important for others.

As @decigallen said there are plenty of wedding photographers that don't want the resolution the D850 gives for weddings, we don't use ours for weddings as 24 million pixels is pretty much perfect.

 

[Fraser Euan White]

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Yep..............the compactness of the Sony is a massive no, no for me - there is just no way I could operate the camera comfortably for long periods of time or get close to actually enjoying using it; they certainly didn't use my hands for shaping the grip or laying out the controls!

Looking through the Sony EVF reminds me of a Nissan Skyline (typical Japanese); very capable but it looks like everything possible has been thrown up in the air and left where it landed on the screen. This was my big hope from the Nikon Mirror-less; a vastly improved EVF layout.

 

[woof woof]

Looking through the Sony EVF reminds me of a Nissan Skyline (typical Japanese); very capable but it looks like everything possible has been thrown up in the air and left where it landed on the screen. This was my big hope from the Nikon Mirror-less; a vastly improved EVF layout.

When I look at my A7 evf there's a row of setting info above the image but the only thing I look at is the battery level and below the image there's the shutter speed, aperture, exposure scale and the ISO. How's that so bad and in need of vast improvement?

 

[Fraser Euan White]

Above & below causes eye strain for me as my eye has to move to read both sets of info.

As a left eye shooter I like below and to the right of the image. An ergonomics engineer told me that a screen should never have info at extremes - i.e. above and below or left and right as it causes eye movement & muscle strain.

 

[simonbarker]

Ok, the one card thing, people need to get over fast. It's there, like it or not.

There's not much to be gained from banging on about its lack of a second slot but Nikon does deserve a lot of criticism for the decision, look how much negativity it's caused.

I don't remember any such fuss when the 6D mkII came out, it was a bit ho-hum,. but none of this over inflated nonsense about it.

The 6DII was one of the most heavily criticized cameras I can think of.

And the adapter being a $300+ add on?? LOL ... I thought these cameras were shipping with the adapter originally, but now finding it's a separate purchase at that price, they can really go get f**ked

Nikon has always had crazy accessory prices but I think you're rather missing the point, $300 to keep using your existing lenses or any 'legacy' lenses is a bargain, just look how much a Metabones EF to E costs yet people buy them.

 

[redhed17]

Yep..............the compactness of the Sony is a massive no, no for me - there is just no way I could operate the camera comfortably for long periods of time or get close to actually enjoying using it; they certainly didn't use my hands for shaping the grip or laying out the controls!

Has any other manufacturer used your hands for shaping their grip or camera controls?

Looking through the Sony EVF reminds me of a Nissan Skyline (typical Japanese); very capable but it looks like everything possible has been thrown up in the air and left where it landed on the screen. This was my big hope from the Nikon Mirror-less; a vastly improved EVF layout.

I've not sure what you would want for an EVF. The DSLR information is not exactly well thought out and has evolved to where everyone does something similar. The EVF's, and to some extent DSLR viewfinders, but especially the EVF should be totally configurable for the info you want, in the positions you want imho.

 

[Radiohead]

Shot Nikon for 10 years professionally. Took me a day to suss how I wanted to set the A9 up. Took me a wedding and half to feel comfortable with the control changes.

YMMV of course.

 

[woof woof]

Above & below causes eye strain for me as my eye has to move to read both sets of info.

As a left eye shooter I like below and to the right of the image. An ergonomics engineer told me that a screen should never have info at extremes - i.e. above and below or left and right as it causes eye movement & muscle strain.

Ignore what's above then and just look at below and if you do that how is a CSC evf display info different to a DSLR's info?

It's not all over the display, it's just at the top and bottom outside of the image area and you can if you like just ignore the top lot pretty much all together.

 

[Fraser Euan White]

Has any other manufacturer used your hands for shaping their grip or camera controls?

I've not sure what you would want for an EVF. The DSLR information is not exactly well thought out and has evolved to where everyone does something similar. The EVF's, and to some extent DSLR viewfinders, but especially the EVF should be totally configurable for the info you want, in the positions you want imho.

No but the Nikon cameras I have had all seem extremely comfortable to hold & use. Likewise their optical viewfinders have the info at the bottom and up the right hand side which really suits me. EVF may have advantages but I have yet to find one I like - they still must have a refresh rate and I am still convinced that is what gives me a headache when I look at one for anything over five minutes; I just don't suffer the same with OVF.

The Japanese have never been strong on ergonomics in anything - they just like giving loads of info with flashing lights where as Nikon seemed different.

 

[snerkler]

I haven't got a D850 but the D810 is silent - the D850 has live view and tilt screen plus OVF - it's fine.

I didn't realise the D810 had a silent mode? Or is that just when it's not shooting

I used the D850 on a recent DCW mag 'Shootout' I was invited to, it just seemed like a slightly different (but not better) version of my D750 but with far too many pixels for my needs, strangely that 'review' didn't go into the mag

If I was shooting landscapes or portraits for BIG prints though it'd be my camera of choice short of MF

Dave

There are other advantages of the D850 which were part of my decision to switch such as frame rate and buffer, as well as AF spread. The high mp was a big one for me though as I crop wildlife a lot. There are then other nice (although far from big) things that make I a bit nicer to shoot such as the really big VF. Overall though the D850 hasn't 'wowed me' like the D750 did. I don't mean that the D850 isn't superb (it really is) and that it isn't a better camera than the D750, it's just that it's not a big leap, whereas when I went from the A77-II to the D750 it was. So it's not really a reflection on the D850, more what I was coming from and more a reflection how good the D750 is.

Except weather sealing is a big deal - particularly for outdoor shooters - factor in F mount lens compatibility, a trusted name and yes it will sell well. I'd pay a premium for a weather sealed camera. Plus the bigger size makes it more for me than the Sony.

If Sony built a larger body, sealed it up I'd maybe consider it.

Weather sealing is a biggie I agree. Not for everyone granted, but I'm sure those that don't particular need to still would like it

I 'get' some of the advantages/disadvantages of mirror-less but I really don't get this weight saving lark between FF mirror-less and DSLR - it's next to FA with the lenses attached! Further to this something like the Sony is no where near as comfortable to hold as the grip is so small.

(..................and yes; I have carried a camera all day for many days)

Depends on the bodies/lenses you're using. For example my D850 weighs 1005g body only, yet the A7riii with 24-70mm is only 1087g. By the time you've stuck a short zoom on the D850 that's quite a weight saving. They are as like for like bodies as they do.

It’s not even close to be truly silent like mirrorless. The live view absolutely blows, both in isolation and comparison.

In these respects it’s like comparing a Ford Sierra with a McLaren.

This idea that ‘it’s fine, the D850 is there’ just falls flat for me. It has none of the reasons people want mirrorless.

The D850 is a phenomenal camera but if you want EVF and quick liveview then obviously the D850 doesn't fit that criteria.

 

[Barrysprout]

An ergonomics engineer told me that a screen should never have info at extremes - i.e. above and below or left and right as it causes eye movement & muscle strain.

Thanks for that Fraser. I've been suffering eye strain trying to read all your argumentative posts on my laptop. Hopefully using your tip this should reduce the strain.