Nikon D800......

6fps...in DX... Woopie, that's going to be useful to...um...nope...

I'm not going to get into the Diffraction arguments its a dead-end that goes nowhere, I'm sure people have been claiming we will be diffraction-limited since went from 1mpix to 2mpix...

Did you read my post? I'm not talking about pixel-diffraction.

So those photos I linked earlier?

Stuck them into exif reader, High ISO NR was set to off.

That makes it unquestionably better than the D700 for noise.

As for being diffraction limited: it's not an especially relevant metric IMO. There are several lenses that are "diffraction limited" wide open or near wide open because they are so well corrected. That doesn't change that if you need depth of field, you're better off stopping down until you have enough.

Diffraction is very relevant. All lenses are always diffraction limited, at all apertures. It's just that at low f/numbers the diffraction limit is far too high to be an issue, even if the lenses were well enough corrected for other aberrations not to be overriding.

However, as f/number is rasied, there comes a point when the lens is capable, and other aberrations are sufficiently well controlled for diffraction to become a hard ceiling for resolution.

That point is generaly reached around f/5.6 on crop format, and f/8 on full frame, so if you go higher than that, it doesn't matter how much resolution the sensor is theoretically capable of because you won't see it. And the higher the resolution of the sensor, given a really first rate lens, the lower the f/number that diffraction ceiling becomes.

In the link I posted above to DPReview, with a Canon 100L macro on a 50D, it hits a sharpness peak quite a bit lower than f/5.6. You'll have to look damn close to see it, but that's what the theoretical levels of sharpness the D800 is capable of demands.

That's my point, law of diminishing returns, and why I also posted links to those high-res images from the Canon 1Dx vs D800. In those two particular examples, they are both incredibly good IMHO, impossible to say which is better, yet one has half the pixels of the other.
 
Did you read my post? I'm not talking about pixel-diffraction.



Diffraction is very relevant. All lenses are always diffraction limited, at all apertures. It's just that at low f/numbers the diffraction limit is far too high to be an issue, even if the lenses were well enough corrected for other aberrations not to be overriding.

However, as f/number is rasied, there comes a point when the lens is capable, and other aberrations are sufficiently well controlled for diffraction to become a hard ceiling for resolution.

That point is generaly reached around f/5.6 on crop format, and f/8 on full frame, so if you go higher than that, it doesn't matter how much resolution the sensor is theoretically capable of because you won't see it. And the higher the resolution of the sensor, given a really first rate lens, the lower the f/number that diffraction ceiling becomes.

In the link I posted above to DPReview, with a Canon 100L macro on a 50D, it hits a sharpness peak quite a bit lower than f/5.6. You'll have to look damn close to see it, but that's what the theoretical levels of sharpness the D800 is capable of demands.

That's my point, law of diminishing returns, and why I also posted links to those high-res images from the Canon 1Dx vs D800. In those two particular examples, they are both incredibly good IMHO, impossible to say which is better, yet one has half the pixels of the other.

Your first paragraph contradicts the second, and your 4th talks about why I think it's not especially relevant.

If a lens can gain more resolution from stopping down to reduce aberrations than it loses from diffraction at a given aperture, it can't be diffraction limited at that aperture, by definition.

There are many lenses that are diffraction limited wide open (they only lose resolution stopping down) because they are that well corrected for aberrations. People will still use them stopped down, because maximum sharpness is only one of several criteria (and I'd argue one of the less important ones) for determining aperture. That's why I said being diffraction limited is not especially relevant.

That's discounting the fact that most lenses have plenty of resolution to spare. We're a good way from the sensor no longer being the bottleneck for resolution (unless the lens is being used below f/16 all the time).
 
Your first paragraph contradicts the second, and your 4th talks about why I think it's not especially relevant.

If a lens can gain more resolution from stopping down to reduce aberrations than it loses from diffraction at a given aperture, it can't be diffraction limited at that aperture, by definition.

There are many lenses that are diffraction limited wide open (they only lose resolution stopping down) because they are that well corrected for aberrations. People will still use them stopped down, because maximum sharpness is only one of several criteria (and I'd argue one of the less important ones) for determining aperture. That's why I said being diffraction limited is not especially relevant.

That's discounting the fact that most lenses have plenty of resolution to spare. We're a good way from the sensor no longer being the bottleneck for resolution (unless the lens is being used below f/16 all the time).

I think my meaning is perfectly clear, especially to someone that knows exactly what I'm saying ;) I don't know of any general photographic lens that performs at its best at lowest f/number. That particular trick is reserved for specialist scientific optics.

I am talking only about sharpness here, though I agree there are other very important considerations. Sharpness is a combination of resolution and contrast. If you want to be particular about it, stating resolution without also specifying the percentage MTF contast is meaningless. And if you do that, and use the common measure of 50% MTF as the cut-off, then very few lenses are capable of reaching the D800's theoretical maximum over all areas of the frame at any time.

36mp equates to 204 pixels per mm, which is a very high level and virtually identical to the Canon 50D used in the lens test I linked to earlier of the Canon 100L macro http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_100_2p8_is_usm_c16/page3.asp You can see there that it appears to be hitting the Nyquist limit at low f/numbers, ie out-resolving the sensor, but diffraction hits below f/5.6 and starts to pull the centre down before the edges have reached their peak, and it's downhill from there onwards. Even the best lenses do not "have resolution to spare" as you claim.

Sharper images are a physical impossibilty once diffraction kicks in as the overriding limit, no matter how good a lens might be or how much resolution potential the sensor has. Furthermore, if you take the depth of field standard for sharpness of 0.03mm as a measure of acceptable sharpness, then the D800 is several times better than that. How much do you need?

The conclusion therefore is that the D800 has more resolution than most people will ever be able to realise in everyday picture taking, unless they have exceptionally good lenses, used at lower f/numbers, and absolutely immaculate technique. I'm not saying more pixels are undesirable, or that we will never see the benefit, just the law of diminshing returns means that getting the max out of this new camera may prove elusive and anyone expecting a shortcut to new levels of amazing sharpness might be dissapointed.

How many pixels do you need? If this image is anything to go by, I think 18mp out of a Canon 1Dx will do me very nicely http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/1dx/samples/downloads/001.jpg It's a 135L BTW, at optimum aperture f/8, ISO400.

Sorry to ramble :D
 
I apologise if this has been asked, didn't fancy trawling through 13 pages of info.

Does anyone know if the D800 has the same time restraints when doing video as other DLSRs? I know most (if not all) have a maximum shooting time before it stops and it has to be restarted.

Also disappointed that it only goes up to 30fps :(
 
I apologise if this has been asked, didn't fancy trawling through 13 pages of info.

Does anyone know if the D800 has the same time restraints when doing video as other DLSRs? I know most (if not all) have a maximum shooting time before it stops and it has to be restarted.

Also disappointed that it only goes up to 30fps :(

30 minutes (or 29.59).

And it shoots up to 60 fps. Similar specs to most video capable DSLRs.
 
So here is the d800 image iso6400 thats been cleaned up by David Purslow, quite impressive considering the image its self is not the best quality

http://www.davidpurslow.com/d800-sample-2dp.jpg

It certainly answers the question about its ISO capabilities so considering you can buy one already for £2135 ( special price for IPPN members ) they have to be the bargain of the year for what is encroaching MF territory


Wilky
 
How many pixels do you need? If this image is anything to go by, I think 18mp out of a Canon 1Dx will do me very nicely http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/1dx/samples/downloads/001.jpg It's a 135L BTW, at optimum aperture f/8, ISO400.

Sorry to ramble :D

Richard I fail to see why you keep referring to the 1Dx on this D800 thread, they are two different cameras, aimed at two different users, certainly they are in two different price leagues.

You need to compare the 1Dx to the D4 I would have thought.

That is if I am correct in thinking that the 1Dx is around the £5000 mark
 
Richard I fail to see why you keep referring to the 1Dx on this D800 thread, they are two different cameras, aimed at two different users, certainly they are in two different price leagues.

You need to compare the 1Dx to the D4 I would have thought.

That is if I am correct in thinking that the 1Dx is around the £5000 mark

LOL, and thats if they ever release the camera :shrug:
 
I think my meaning is perfectly clear, especially to someone that knows exactly what I'm saying ;) I don't know of any general photographic lens that performs at its best at lowest f/number. That particular trick is reserved for specialist scientific optics.

Except that there's a better, more common, more accurate way of saying it: all lenses are affected by diffraction at every aperture. That's just a property of light. Being diffraction limited implies that it's the limiting characteristic of the image system at that given aperture. This isn't just me saying it, ask any optics physicist or lens scientist.

I am talking only about sharpness here, though I agree there are other very important considerations. Sharpness is a combination of resolution and contrast. If you want to be particular about it, stating resolution without also specifying the percentage MTF contast is meaningless. And if you do that, and use the common measure of 50% MTF as the cut-off, then very few lenses are capable of reaching the D800's theoretical maximum over all areas of the frame at any time.

36mp equates to 204 pixels per mm, which is a very high level and virtually identical to the Canon 50D used in the lens test I linked to earlier of the Canon 100L macro http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_100_2p8_is_usm_c16/page3.asp You can see there that it appears to be hitting the Nyquist limit at low f/numbers, ie out-resolving the sensor, but diffraction hits below f/5.6 and starts to pull the centre down before the edges have reached their peak, and it's downhill from there onwards. Even the best lenses do not "have resolution to spare" as you claim.

Yeah, with the nicest intent, you don't quite understand sampling theory. A 204 pixels/mm Bayer filter sensor cannot reliably resolve 100 lp/mm except in the most convenient case. Its direction independent and maximum resolution is about 60-70lp/mm, and going colour independent lowers that even more. Think about the colour resolution of the sensor, and orienting images diagonally.

As for lenses with resolution to spare? 24, 45 and 85 mm PC-E, 50mm and 85mm f1.8, 105mm macro, 200 f/2 300 and 400 2.8, 500 and 600 f/4, and that's just on the Nikon side. The (true) apochromatic zeiss macros will be even better.

Sharper images are a physical impossibilty once diffraction kicks in as the overriding limit, no matter how good a lens might be or how much resolution potential the sensor has. Furthermore, if you take the depth of field standard for sharpness of 0.03mm as a measure of acceptable sharpness, then the D800 is several times better than that. How much do you need?

Categorically untrue. Trivially so. Once sensors start oversampling sensors, deconvolution becomes easier. We can mathematically reverse some of the diffraction as it's a predictable, linear phenomenon (for a given aperture).

As for need, I don't make claims on what others may need.

The conclusion therefore is that the D800 has more resolution than most people will ever be able to realise in everyday picture taking, unless they have exceptionally good lenses, used at lower f/numbers, and absolutely immaculate technique. I'm not saying more pixels are undesirable, or that we will never see the benefit, just the law of diminshing returns means that getting the max out of this new camera may prove elusive and anyone expecting a shortcut to new levels of amazing sharpness might be dissapointed.

I do agree with this :)

How many pixels do you need? If this image is anything to go by, I think 18mp out of a Canon 1Dx will do me very nicely http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/1dx/samples/downloads/001.jpg It's a 135L BTW, at optimum aperture f/8, ISO400.

Sorry to ramble :D

Personal taste. I'll take more pixels as they're given, provided other qualities also improve (and it's the other qualities that draw me to the D800). At this point, I'm mostly indifferent to MP.
 
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This maybe slightly at a tangent, but we all get buried in image quality , diffraction, grain and so on, I think we expect near perfection from modern technology when spending a lot of money. In the back of our minds we have the haunting ghosts of "film" quality gnawing at us . Im guilty of this I think.
I was looking at the "film" section of this forum just yesterday and in particular a thread about the film grain levels of certain films when processing for varying lengths of time .
There were 100% crops of what was said to be a "good low grain negative" which were unbelievably grainy .........my thought is I think digital is every bit as good as film and do we not get bogged down with technology just because there is more of it to get bogged down in these days ?
Im standing, hands tied and blindfolded in front of a tall wall !
 
My 2 mins with the 6400 ISO shot ...

www.strathycruise.com/pics/d800-filt.jpg

By no means perfect (loads of artefacts) but if I spent a bit of time making a proper profile it would be top notch.

I run all my D700 JPGs through filtering so no biggy when moving camera.
 
This maybe slightly at a tangent, but we all get buried in image quality , diffraction, grain and so on, I think we expect near perfection from modern technology when spending a lot of money. In the back of our minds we have the haunting ghosts of "film" quality gnawing at us . Im guilty of this I think.
I was looking at the "film" section of this forum just yesterday and in particular a thread about the film grain levels of certain films when processing for varying lengths of time .
There were 100% crops of what was said to be a "good low grain negative" which were unbelievably grainy .........my thought is I think digital is every bit as good as film and do we not get bogged down with technology just because there is more of it to get bogged down in these days ?
Im standing, hands tied and blindfolded in front of a tall wall !

My own opinion is that the IQ is great from any recent camera.

My discussions with Hoppy are fun. I like the tech, and sometimes we learn stuff off each other. Even if we don't agree, I find it interesting.

To me, the tech talk is completely separate from the photo talk. Regardless of how well or badly cameras perform, I'll still be out trying to make the best pictures I can. It's just that it's nice to understand how the tools help the artist.
 
Ill wait for the Phottix version to follow.

A £100 grip to make hand holding better is a more sound investment that spending the extra on a larger body just for the sake of size.
 
My 2 mins with the 6400 ISO shot ...

www.strathycruise.com/pics/d800-filt.jpg

By no means perfect (loads of artefacts) but if I spent a bit of time making a proper profile it would be top notch.

I run all my D700 JPGs through filtering so no biggy when moving camera.

You say " by no means perfect " Respectfully what is perfect though ?
In the next few years something even "better" will be announced 50-60 million pixel FX sensors??? and we will still be finding fault with those .
What we have digitally these days (if you need high 6400 ISO+) is far better than using 800 1600 3200 ASA very grainy film that we could do very little with , those restrictions were accepted. But I would ask the question, how many of us actually use 6400 ISO or more for the majority of our shots ?
Maybe another question would be , how many images that are "keepers" taken at 6400 + ISO do any of us have on our computer that you are happy with or would sell to a customer ?
 
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Ill wait for the Phottix version to follow.

A £100 grip to make hand holding better is a more sound investment that spending the extra on a larger body just for the sake of size.


You are right a grip makes hand holding easier and your investment logic is... well, logical.

I must admit I was a little surprised at £379 for the D800 grip, it is a lot of money.
Someone said to me they would rather buy four new batteries with the money and change them more often, and if using the D800 for landscape it would be on a tripod. I suppose the extra batteries would be good if away for a few days.
 
I did not buy a grip for my D300 or D700 ... defeats the object of buying the smaller body version.

Conversely, I wanted a big sized body but DX... which in the Nikon D3/D300/D700 series wasn't available.

Of course the beauty is that on the odd occasion when I am not doing "serious" photography I can drop it off and have a nice "small" camera for holiday snaps.
 
Ignoring the science and concentrating on the business for a moment, if we do see a baby D4 then that will be a new product line from Nikon.

The D700 was never intended to be a mini D3. Nikon released it to plug the gap in the market in which they were deficient; they were losing sales to the 5D. At that time, though, they only had one full frame sensor.

Once they had a better sensor (the D3S) then they upgraded their flagship. This differentiated it from the lower end D700, and is the reason why no D700S was ever released. Again, the D700 was meant to compete with the 5D, not be a mini D3S.

Of course, the sensor was behind on megapixel count, and now the Nikon/Sony collaboration means Nikon have a 5D competitor proper. The D800 is not meant to be a mini D4, and now that Nikon have two sensors, it will not be. So, if we do see a dedicated mini-D4, it will be an entirely new line. Where would it sit price wise? Cannibalising sales from the £1499 D400, or the £2399 D800, or a bargain preventing pro sales of the D4? All those pricepoints would be uncomfortable pitches for any business, let alone Nikon.

Now, it seems the lineup is now rationalised to compete with their rivals, especially Canon; consumer/prosumer Dx, then D400 (7D and its replacement), then D800 (5D2 and it's replacement) then D4(1Dx). With the D800, the D4x finds its new name. Looking at that, it seems fairly sound business sense to me.
 
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Conversely, I wanted a big sized body but DX... which in the Nikon D3/D300/D700 series wasn't available.

Of course the beauty is that on the odd occasion when I am not doing "serious" photography I can drop it off and have a nice "small" camera for holiday snaps.

Fair comment, I had never given it a thought that the Pro size DX stopped with the D2 series.
 
Ignoring the science and concentrating on the business for a moment, if we do see a baby D4 then that will be a new product line from Nikon.

The D700 was never intended to be a mini D3. Nikon released it to plug the gap in the market in which they were deficient; they were losing sales to the 5D. At that time, though, they only had one full frame sensor.

Once they had a better sensor (the D3S) then they upgraded their flagship. This differentiated it from the lower end D700, and is the reason why no D700S was ever released. Again, the D700 was meant to compete with the 5D, not be a mini D3S.

Of course, the sensor was behind on megapixel count, and now the Nikon/Sony collaboration means Nikon have a 5D competitor proper. The D800 is not meant to be a mini D4, and now that Nikon have two sensors, it will not be. So, if we do see a dedicated mini-D4, it will be an entirely new line. Where would it sit price wise? Cannibalising sales from the £1499 D400, or the £2399 D800, or a bargain preventing pro sales of the D4? All those pricepoints would be uncomfortable pitches for any business, let alone Nikon.

Now, it seems the lineup is now rationalised to compete with their rivals, especially Canon; consumer/prosumer Dx, then D400 (7D and its replacement), then D800 (5D2 and it's replacement) then D4(1Dx). With the D800, the D4x finds its new name. Looking at that, it seems fairly sound business sense to me.


Spot-on :thumbs:
 
Ignoring the science and concentrating on the business for a moment, if we do see a baby D4 then that will be a new product line from Nikon.

The D700 was never intended to be a mini D3. Nikon released it to plug the gap in the market in which they were deficient; they were losing sales to the 5D. At that time, though, they only had one full frame sensor.

Once they had a better sensor (the D3S) then they upgraded their flagship. This differentiated it from the lower end D700, and is the reason why no D700S was ever released. Again, the D700 was meant to compete with the 5D, not be a mini D3S.

Of course, the sensor was behind on megapixel count, and now the Nikon/Sony collaboration means Nikon have a 5D competitor proper. The D800 is not meant to be a mini D4, and now that Nikon have two sensors, it will not be. So, if we do see a dedicated mini-D4, it will be an entirely new line. Where would it sit price wise? Cannibalising sales from the £1499 D400, or the £2399 D800, or a bargain preventing pro sales of the D4? All those pricepoints would be uncomfortable pitches for any business, let alone Nikon.

Now, it seems the lineup is now rationalised to compete with their rivals, especially Canon; consumer/prosumer Dx, then D400 (7D and its replacement), then D800 (5D2 and it's replacement) then D4(1Dx). With the D800, the D4x finds its new name. Looking at that, it seems fairly sound business sense to me.


That makes sense but even if the d700 was initially a compromise its success should be something to build on I think. Not just take another direction to compete with Canon who (btw) had no competitor to d700 so anyone who wanted affordable FF low-light performer HAD to switch to Nikon
 
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Richard I fail to see why you keep referring to the 1Dx on this D800 thread, they are two different cameras, aimed at two different users, certainly they are in two different price leagues.

You need to compare the 1Dx to the D4 I would have thought.

That is if I am correct in thinking that the 1Dx is around the £5000 mark

LOL Sorry :) I'm not comparing the D800 to the 1Dx, I'm comparing relative pixel counts. Just saying that 18mp images from the lastest Canon FF sensor look just as good as similar shots from Nikon's new 36mp jobbie, which I think begs a fairly obvious question.

I'll stop now :D

Except that there's a better, more common, more accurate way of saying it: all lenses are affected by diffraction at every aperture. That's just a property of light. Being diffraction limited implies that it's the limiting characteristic of the image system at that given aperture. This isn't just me saying it, ask any optics physicist or lens scientist.

Yeah, with the nicest intent, you don't quite understand sampling theory. A 204 pixels/mm Bayer filter sensor cannot reliably resolve 100 lp/mm except in the most convenient case. Its direction independent and maximum resolution is about 60-70lp/mm, and going colour independent lowers that even more. Think about the colour resolution of the sensor, and orienting images diagonally.

As for lenses with resolution to spare? 24, 45 and 85 mm PC-E, 50mm and 85mm f1.8, 105mm macro, 200 f/2 300 and 400 2.8, 500 and 600 f/4, and that's just on the Nikon side. The (true) apochromatic zeiss macros will be even better.

Exactly. Not your average everyday lenses are they. And they're also diffraction limited like anything else, and your technique will have to be red hot to realise the benefits, which is just not possible in many situations.


Categorically untrue. Trivially so. Once sensors start oversampling sensors, deconvolution becomes easier. We can mathematically reverse some of the diffraction as it's a predictable, linear phenomenon (for a given aperture).

As for need, I don't make claims on what others may need.

Diffraction is an optical phenominon that always exists, and it all happens before the image reaches the sensor. There is nothing that can be done to restore detail that doesn't exist.

I do agree with this :)

Personal taste. I'll take more pixels as they're given, provided other qualities also improve (and it's the other qualities that draw me to the D800). At this point, I'm mostly indifferent to MP.

That's the flipside. I know your views on the effects of high pixel counts (and TBH I think I agree in principle) but the fact remains that, in practise, the more pixels you cram on to a sensor, the more that noise is impacted. That's how reality pans out, when you compare equivalent generations of sensors, as best we can.

It's a moot point, because we may well have reached the point where it becomes unnoticeable anyway, but the D4 with 16mp has a maximum ISO setting that can be expanded three stops higher* than the 36mp D800. Not of great interest to most of us, but it does open up opportunites for specialist scientific or industrial use.

*One stop higher on native ISO, 12800 vs 6400
 
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Oh, I agree- I'd love to see a mini D4, no complaints from me. It's just that, from every historic angle I can see it, there's no room in the strategy of prestigious Japanese management like Nikon's for autonomous competition.

The D700 was a lovely kit, but I get the feeling that Nikon were keen to put some distance between it and the D-flagship as soon as they could. It started as a stop-gap, and despite its success Nikon had other ideas for that model number from day one.
 
LOL Sorry :) I'm not comparing the D800 to the 1Dx, I'm comparing relative pixel counts. Just saying that 18mp images from the lastest Canon FF sensor look just as good as similar shots from Nikon's new 36mp jobbie, which I think begs a fairly obvious question.

I'll stop now :D

That would be why spend £5200 on a camera when you can get one just as good for £2400 ... :D

Only pulling your leg Richard ... I would prefer fewer pixels but a cleaner high ISO image, the difference would be with my wildlife shots though as I could crop the life out of a D800 image and still retain a load of detail.

I shall await some real world images and make a decision ... I don't do many chandelier images myself ;)
 
LOL Sorry :) I'm not comparing the D800 to the 1Dx, I'm comparing relative pixel counts. Just saying that 18mp images from the lastest Canon FF sensor look just as good as similar shots from Nikon's new 36mp jobbie, which I think begs a fairly obvious question.

I'll stop now :D



Exactly. Not your average everyday lenses are they. And they're also diffraction limited like anything else, and your technique will have to be red hot to realise the benefits, which is just not possible in many situations.
The 50 and 85 1.8s are hardly expensive :) . The others aren't cheap, true, but this is a £2400 camera.

Diffraction is an optical phenominon that always exists, and it all happens before the image reaches the sensor. There is nothing that can be done to restore detail that doesn't exist.

I didn't call that categorically untrue (that the detail can't be recovered, not that diffraction exists) for giggles :).
Deconvolution is well understood and already applied in optics. It's part of the reason we can etch 22nm features with193nm wavelength light.


That's the flipside. I know your views on the effects of high pixel counts (and TBH I think I agree in principle) but the fact remains that, in practise, the more pixels you cram on to a sensor, the more that noise is impacted. That's how reality pans out, when you compare equivalent generations of sensors, as best we can.

It's a moot point, because we may well have reached the point where it becomes unnoticeable anyway, but the D4 with 16mp has a maximum ISO setting that can be expanded three stops higher* than the 36mp D800. Not of great interest to most of us, but it does open up opportunites for specialist scientific or industrial use.

*One stop higher on native ISO, 12800 vs 6400

While I don't expect the D800 to match the D400, don't let indicated ISOs sway you. It's marketing. The 1Ds3 had the same indicated ISO as the 1D3, but it was a better high ISO performer.
 
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Fair comment, I had never given it a thought that the Pro size DX stopped with the D2 series.

It's a travesty that it did but there was always going to be a problem with Nikon's naming strategy when they went to FX - how would DX and FX versions of the same camera sit next to each other? Plus, would a DX 'pro' body actually even sell when pros had been tempted by what FX could give them?

I know Canon kept the 1.3x crop 1D series going until this year but it was a halfway house of sorts, based around speed.

I would give my left ball sack for a new D2 (D2s maybe?) that had the D7000 sensor in a gripped body shell. It would be THE perfect camera for pros who don't neccessarily require the benefits of full-frame. I'm sure birders and sports togs would have welcomed the choice. Obviously, helping punters get more from their telephotos with the 1.5x crop factor doesn't help you sell £3500 300mm f/2.8 lenses when they can go out and get a 70-200mm f/2.8 or even a 200mm f/2 and get the effectively the same effective focal length....
 
At what price, £7500? I'd have hoped the D3x had been a valuable lesson in what not to do....

If they can use the 36MP sensor in a £2,399 body I'm sure it could be used in a full size body for little more than the price of a D4. A D4x wouldn't need to be £7,500 - more like £5,200, then it would sell in quantity.
 
I would give my left ball sack for a new D2 (D2s maybe?) that had the D7000 sensor in a gripped body shell. It would be THE perfect camera for pros who don't neccessarily require the benefits of full-frame. I'm sure birders and sports togs would have welcomed the choice. Obviously, helping punters get more from their telephotos with the 1.5x crop factor doesn't help you sell £3500 300mm f/2.8 lenses when they can go out and get a 70-200mm f/2.8 or even a 200mm f/2 and get the effectively the same effective focal length....

Surely there's room for a gripped body replacement for the D300 ? I thought when they positioned the D7000 slightly upmarket from that of the D90 (twin card slots...slightly better construction etc ) that they did that so they could bring out a proper gripped body DX pro camera :shrug:
 
Surely there's room for a gripped body replacement for the D300 ? I thought when they positioned the D7000 slightly upmarket from that of the D90 (twin card slots...slightly better construction etc ) that they did that so they could bring out a proper gripped body DX pro camera :shrug:

Let's hope so!
 
I wonder if the concept of a "pro" using DX is dead from both Canon and Nikon now? With the death of the APS-H format from Canon it does look like its full frame or nothing.

For long lens work its a shame to loose the in camera crop like that - its back to the old days I guess.

I had rather hope the Nikon 4 series bodies would see the start of the hybrid AF system (phase and contrast detect) to allow wider placed AF points that a pentaprism would allow on its own (thats why the FX AF points are where they are, not because Nikon hate you!).

To be honest at 36mp, it would allow cropping nicely, but without the AF points being wide enough dispersed it would mean pretty much everything needs cropping... I mean, think about a tight head and shoulders shot of a person, to get the AF over the eyes and get a nice rule of thirds composition... you can't do it. Focus and recompose is fine for a model in a studio, but candid shots of people (in my case, pitlane shots of drivers/riders), you're going to have to recompose with the crop tool to eliminate rubbish space over the head composition.... and thats before I talk about car/bike track shots.

I don't WANT to manually crop every damned image, I want to compose on the fly and leave it alone.

Is it just me?
 
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I wonder if the concept of a "pro" using DX is dead from both Canon and Nikon now? With the death of the APS-H format from Canon it does look like its full frame or nothing.
For long lens work its a shame to loose the in camera crop like that - its back to the old days I guess....

I think you're right. 1D series doesn't look like it'll be around for much longer unless they change the naming system around and have a 1DXs to denote a crop sensor. Can't really see Nikon shoe-horning in a D2s, because the numbering looks retrograde. Unless they bring out something with a 'DX' affix, say D3/D4 'DX' but I doubt they see enough worth in DX as high-end 'pro'. I know the Dxxx bodies are classed as 'pro' in the brochures because of the build and weather sealing but top-end 'pro', to me, means a built-in grip a'la D1/D2/D3/D4
 
The 50 and 85 1.8s are hardly expensive :) . The others aren't cheap, true, but this is a £2400 camera.

It's a moot point, but you're clutching at straws. The truth is that both lens capability and the practicalities of real world picture taking are serious limitations when you're trying to max out the potential of a 36mp sensor.

I didn't call that categorically untrue (that the detail can't be recovered, not that diffraction exists) for giggles :).
Deconvolution is well understood and already applied in optics. It's part of the reason we can etch 22nm features with193nm wavelength light.

You're good at quoting obscure theory (I'm not bad at it myself :lol:) but whatever this deconvolution business claims to be able to do, it has not found its way into any cameras yet. I will make a prediction too - it's not coming our way any time soon.

I like a bit of theory, which surely underpins everything, but one of the great things about photography is that everything is netted out in an actual finished photograph and you can't argue with it. If I can't see a theory making any visible difference, even when examined very closely, then I'm not going to worry about it.

But one theory holds good - optical diffraction caps potential sharpness, and you don't have to look too closely to see it. It's real, it's relevant, and it's not hard to prove for anyone who hasn't already noticed it. It's one of the reasons for those T&S lenses you referred to above.

While I don't expect the D800 to match the D400, don't let indicated ISOs sway you. It's marketing. The 1Ds3 had the same indicated ISO as the 1D3, but it was a better high ISO performer.

Sure, there's lots of marketing talk going on, but again here is the reality - more pixels means more noise in practise. In making true like for like comparsisons as best we can, that is always true*. Frankly I think we're now approaching the point (the latest sensors and processing engines are awsomely good now) where it's becoming a marginal issue for most of us, with full frame at least.

*Nikon suggested to me that at least some of the noise advanatage of the D4 is down to the processing engine. Though it's the same in the D800, there are cost and speed limitations to be weighed up when extracting the last drop out of more than twice the number of pixels, and each with less than half the signal level.
 
It's a moot point, but you're clutching at straws. The truth is that both lens capability and the practicalities of real world picture taking are serious limitations when you're trying to max out the potential of a 36mp sensor.
I never disagreed with this. There are lots of obstacles to overcome, but they can be overcome. Technique can be improved, tripods deployed, shutter speeds increased, better lenses used. (but the lens quality thing is incredibly overblown, and we will see that in a month for sure - we can see it now in the D800 raws shot with the 50mm f/1.8 (a £170 lens) but getting the bodies into lots of hands will show it better). That said, for applications where across the frame performance is as important as centre, the lens issue will be relevant sooner.

You're good at quoting obscure theory (I'm not bad at it myself :lol:) but whatever this deconvolution business claims to be able to do, it has not found its way into any cameras yet. I will make a prediction too - it's not coming our way any time soon.

Hey, it can't be that obscure if teenagers are familiar with it (any electronic, mechanical, aeronautical engineering, physics or maths undergrad should know what it is and how it works) :)

It won't be in cameras for a while, though I can see it hitting desktops in the next few years. Deconvolving a 70+MP image (that's about where it could start being really useful as the colour resolution of the sensor is then high enough) will take a lot of memory and processing power, and you need to have the response of the various lenses and sensors profiled. But computing power is getting cheaper all the time (and the chip companies are looking for ways to sell more to us, because they're getting so good that the average person no longer needs to upgrade their laptop/desktop except when it breaks - incidentally, a situation camera makers don't want to fall back into).
I like a bit of theory, which surely underpins everything, but one of the great things about photography is that everything is netted out in an actual finished photograph and you can't argue with it. If I can't see a theory making any visible difference, even when examined very closely, then I'm not going to worry about it.

Very true. But where something can make a difference, it's good to know how practical/plausible it is, and in some cases, even that it exists

But one theory holds good - optical diffraction caps potential sharpness, and you don't have to look too closely to see it. It's real, it's relevant, and it's not hard to prove for anyone who hasn't already noticed it. It's one of the reasons for those T&S lenses you referred to above.

The T/S lenses are actually a great example. There's lots of moderate maths that can be applied to exactly work out the tilt, shift and focus distance to get the desired effect for a given scene even before the camera comes out of the bag. Most people can't do it (mental trig isn't the easiest thing even with approximations) so get a 'feel' for it or mark distances and angles. But take someone who has the 'feel' but not the detail, explain the theory, and now it takes a quarter of the time and much less faffing about to get the desired result. And there's no complaining that tilt doesn't get everything in focus (it changes the plane of focus rather than expanding it, but a good number of people don't realise that and get frustrated).

Sure, there's lots of marketing talk going on, but again here is the reality - more pixels means more noise in practise. In making true like for like comparsisons as best we can, that is always true*. Frankly I think we're now approaching the point (the latest sensors and processing engines are awsomely good now) where it's becoming a marginal issue for most of us, with full frame at least.

*Nikon suggested to me that at least some of the noise advanatage of the D4 is down to the processing engine. Though it's the same in the D800, there are cost and speed limitations to be weighed up when extracting the last drop out of more than twice the number of pixels, and each with less than half the signal level.

There's always going to be compromise. Higher MP sensor performing as well as a lower MP sensor means you have to use a newer process geometry (£££££), slow the sensor down (boo), have more complex microlenses (££), lower voltage signalling (£££, affects yield and conflicts with getting data off the sensor). No use making a 36MP sensor that shoots at 1FPS and costs £15000 (figures pulled out my ****) when you could just go to medium format and have those things.

I wonder what will happen if we ever properly disagree? Forum highjack rather than just thread? :p
 
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