Nikon CLS system... on a Canon - how?

futureal33

futureal33

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Nick
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Afternoon,

Most of my photographer friends use Nikon, and regularly like showing off their CLS system.
As a Canon user I obviously dont have CLS...

  • Im just wondering what kit I would need to get a similar system...that is:
  • Something that transmits TTL to a remote flash
  • no wires
  • decent range (upto say 15m)
  • Ability to control remote flash power from within camera menu

Could I put a flash on my camera body and then use that to wirelessly trigger another remote flash, but with TTL?

I currently have a Canon 430exII flash and Canon 5DmkIII camera

If anyone could tell me what my options are it would be great :)

Many thanks,
Nick
 
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Not 100% on this but I think pocketwizards can transmit TTL
 
You either need a flash that can act as a master (550EX, 580EX, 580EXII or the new 600s) or an ST-E2. If you want to do it from the camera though you'll need one of the newer ones though as with the 550EX you'll have to do it on the flash itself.

You can go one better though, if you have the money, and buy into the new radio based ETTL with the 600EX-RT and ST-E3-RT - it's expensive, but it's ETTL over radio with nobs on :-)

More info on the latter from Syl here: http://pixsylated.com/blog/video-canon-600ex-rt-speedlite-st-e3-transmitter/
 
I don't have a 5DIII but yes, that should work just fine - one other advantage of the newer 600 series flashes is the AF assist light covers all the 5dIII AF points, whereas the older ones don't cover them all.
 
futureal33 said:
So,

If I stuck a 580exII on, I'd have TTL on the 580 flash ON-camera, and could control my 430exII wirelessly from the camera menu? Would the 430exII have TTL and High speed sync still?

edit - ps, thanks for the help :)
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Yes, you get all that, but with the standard Canon system you lose remote second curtain sync.

However, you get that back, with bells on, with the Pocket Wizard Mini/Flex system that has a few extra cool tricks and actually works better on Canon than the Nikon version.

Personally, if I was starting more or less from scratch, I would deffo go for a radio system, ie PW or Phottix Odin, though there are others.
 
I believe, although I am too poor to test it myself :-), that the new RT system supports 2nd curtain, as well as reporting "flash ready" back to the master.. Which could be useful if you can't see/hear it. If I had the money I would go that route as they are discontinuing the old wireless ettl units, although this gen of RTs are backwards compatible.
 
SJRobbins said:
I believe, although I am too poor to test it myself :-), that the new RT system supports 2nd curtain, as well as reporting "flash ready" back to the master.. Which could be useful if you can't see/hear it. If I had the money I would go that route as they are discontinuing the old wireless ettl units, although this gen of RTs are backwards compatible.
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Don't think so.

I don't know why Canon doesn't support second curtain remote, but in the absense of any obvious technical reason (esp now with the radio EX-RT) I'm guessing it may be patent related. Minolta had some early flash patents that Nikon acquired, might be wrong though.

As well as PW, Photix Odin supports remote second curtain sync. Prolly others too, not checked. But having said that, the manufacturers' second curtain timing is only very loosly second curtain anyway. It's more like 'middle curtain' until speeds get well below 1/4sec. PW's optimised second curtain sync is miles better.
 
Well that's sucky.. I know you can't use the IR and RF stuff at the same time either, which makes it a bit of an all or nothing upgrade. would also be nice to move beyond 3 groups.

I've read that both PocketWizard and Phottix are reverse engineering the new RT protocol, maybe they can fix the limitations :-)
 
Can anyone tell me in simple terms the difference between a 580EX II, 580 EX and the new 600 flashes?

Edit - actually I have a more in-depth question to ask:

I am trying to get a wireless 2 flash set up.

One on camera, one off camera.
Ability to control the slave flash from the master flash
TTL / High Speed Sync / Flash exposure compensation info to be passed to slave flash from master
Ability to set independant flash exposures (ie, on camera flash to be the main source of light, and the off camera - slave flash to be fill-flash)

Ive been doing some research and it seems a 580EX II would do all this for me?
What are my other options.... 580 EX, Nissin Di866, 600 EX RT etc...

Thank you for any help
 
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580 would need line of sight. The 600 does not. You could hide the 600 around a corner and the master 600 or STE3 would still fire it and lets not forget that the range is a lot more with the 600
 
2nd curtain over radio remote on a canon can be done very cheaply, if needed.

Flash on camera set to 2nd Curtain Sync on manual at low power. Attach an optical slave trigger to the top of the flash somehow (e.g. velcro etc) then attach a transmitter from a radio trigger to the top of the optical slave. Works like a charm.

This method can also be used for pseudo HSS where you can dumb trigger the remote flash much earlier than normal and run it at full power for ambient cheating flash.
 
Kris said:
2nd curtain over radio remote on a canon can be done very cheaply, if needed.

Flash on camera set to 2nd Curtain Sync on manual at low power. Attach an optical slave trigger to the top of the flash somehow (e.g. velcro etc) then attach a transmitter from a radio trigger to the top of the optical slave. Works like a charm.

This method can also be used for pseudo HSS where you can dumb trigger the remote flash much earlier than normal and run it at full power for ambient cheating flash.
Click to expand...

:D

IMG_4870.jpg
 
the cheapest way that you can get an equivalent system is to buy a chinese ST-E2 'clone' on ebay for about £100. This will give you basically exactly the same system as the nikon CLS :)
 
HoppyUK said:
:D

IMG_4870.jpg
Click to expand...

Yep, just like that.

The problem with that sort of design though is that it gets triggered by every other tom, dick and harry about you.

I used a standard optical cell trigger with a hotshoe above, but placed it inside a sprayed black, stofen-type diffuser cap to control the light hitting the cell.
 
The "line of sight" thing is misleading - it doesn't actually need to be facing the master, or indeed be able to see it at all, but the light does need to reach it - it's nowhere near as flexible as RF, but it's also nowhere near as restrictive as "line of sight" makes it sound :)

As for the various non-RF models, the 550EX, 580EX and 580EXII will all serve you find as master or slave units. I own the first two, and have used all 3, and personally I think the 580EX is the least "hassle" of the three - you get the dial, which is much quicker for adjusting the 3 groups, but you also still get the physical normal/master/slave switch. Any of them will do the job though, so if you spot a bargain with any of them then jump on it :)
 
Kris said:
Yep, just like that.

The problem with that sort of design though is that it gets triggered by every other tom, dick and harry about you.

I used a standard optical cell trigger with a hotshoe above, but placed it inside a sprayed black, stofen-type diffuser cap to control the light hitting the cell.
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Haha! I've done that too - great minds an' all that :D

I have an upgraded version, using a Canon 270EX which is a great little gun for this kind of thing. The trigger and slave are both self-contained in half an E45 bottle attached to the front.

It's really quite a neat set up, but doesn't solve the problem of Canon's second curtain sync firing quite a long way ahead of the actual second curtain closing. Ditto Nikon. If I used this technique a lot, I would just get a Pocket Wizard Mini/Flex system that does all this tricky strobist stuff so much better than the OEM system.
 
I think the PW version is still "guesswork".. it's actually a pretty difficult problem to solve with unknown latency/flash duration (that's why they fire so early).

Just count the exposure in your head and fire the flash by hand ;)
 
SJRobbins said:
I think the PW version is still "guesswork".. it's actually a pretty difficult problem to solve with unknown latency/flash duration (that's why they fire so early).

Just count the exposure in your head and fire the flash by hand ;)
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No, it works really well. I've used it. See here http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/rear_curtain_sync/

The problem the camera manufacturers have is they must make things so they work with absolutely every combination of camera/lens. This ends up with a lot of slack that PW takes up with their model specific custom profiles in their Mini/Flex system.

With Canon, not only do you get very accurate second curtain sync timing, it also works at higher shutter speeds - Nikons' and Canons' second curtain sync doesn't work at all above about 1/30sec.

Plus you get slightly higher sync speeds with no loss of light, and also much more powerful high speed sync output (Nikon is a bit different and you don't get more light, just faster recycling).
 
SJRobbins said:
you get the dial, which is much quicker for adjusting the 3 groups, but you also still get the physical normal/master/slave switch.
Click to expand...

The benefit of placing the mode into software rather than a hardware switch is that is that it can be controlled remotely through the hotshoe and from the back of the camera LCD, which is extremely nice once you get used to it. Nikon system is nowhere near so intuitive within this regard.

Witness all the new slimline ttl radio triggers that work only with exII flashes, inc the YN622 and Pixel King through the cameras lcd. If radio ttl is something that people might consider in the future, this might be worth bearing in mind.
 
Kris said:
The benefit of placing the mode into software rather than a hardware switch is that is that it can be controlled remotely through the hotshoe and from the back of the camera LCD, which is extremely nice once you get used to it. Nikon system is nowhere near so intuitive within this regard.

Witness all the new slimline ttl radio triggers that work only with exII flashes, inc the YN622 and Pixel King through the cameras lcd. If radio ttl is something that people might consider in the future, this might be worth bearing in mind.
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Yep, but I find it much quicker to do everything from the flash than I do through the menus on the camera - camera looks prettier, but not as quick imo.
 
SJRobbins said:
Yep, but I find it much quicker to do everything from the flash than I do through the menus on the camera - camera looks prettier, but not as quick imo.
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Quicker, if the flash is on-camera. (Is that still done?)

Practice using the flash control menus leads to skill and fast operation.

Walk 10m to lightstand, lower, peel back softbox diffuser, change setting with arthritic fingers, re-attach diffuser, raise softbox, walk back to camera - damn, subject has gone!

And, something like the Pixel Kings make O/C 2nd curtain simple.
 
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SeedyBee said:
Quicker, if the flash is on-camera. (Is that still done?)

Practice using the flash control menus leads to skill and fast operation.

Walk 10m to lightstand, lower, peel back softbox diffuser, change setting with arthritic fingers, re-attach diffuser, raise softbox, walk back to camera - damn, subject has gone!

And, something like the Pixel Kings make O/C 2nd curtain simple.
Click to expand...

It's still done if the flash on the camera is just being used as an ETTL master, or pushed through an orbis as fill :P

There's no "skill" about the flash menus, it's a limitation of the UI and how deep you can put your quick menu options, on the 60D at least :(
 
Flash on-camera is great! Makes life a heck of a lot easier, and it doesn't mean the light has to be coming from the camera position ;)
 
SJRobbins said:
There's no "skill" about the flash menus, it's a limitation of the UI and how deep you can put your quick menu options, on the 60D at least :(
Click to expand...

I disagree with that! As with all the buttons etc on the camera body, a significant manual dexterity can be built up with practice. There are photographic situations where the flash control menus are the only practical avenue.

And yes, customise your camera's menus.
 
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