Nikon Auto FP sync

treeman

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A couple of months ago I was doing a horse portrait in the setting sun, and just trying it with an SB900 in FP mode, off camera via cable. I was shooting a f4.5, for DOF I wanted, and to get the sky correct I was at 3200th sec. I couldn't for the life of me work out why the horse was not getting lite up as much as I'd expected, quick battery change and still no better. Anyway, as it happens, I got a shot i was happy with and promptly forgot all about it........until today when I thought I'd see why it was doing what it was! :bat:

Ok, I admit I don't often use Speedlites and rarely, if ever, read the Manual, but I've just discovered that when you go into the FP supper duper fast shutter speed mode, you also loose power of the speedlite. So unless you actually only need a little bit of power from your flash, it's a bit pointless, or am I missing something? :shrug:
 
auto fp will strobe the lamp to sync for fast shutter speeds, so yes you lose power as you get multi bursts off "one" capacitor charge.

still it's a shame it makes that much of a difference, more flasheguns would obviously help :D £££

Nick.
 
Yes, just switching on HSS/FP-sync loses you about three stops of (potential) flash power (this is wrong - see edit below) and every stop that you raise the shutter speed loses you another stop. So at 1/3200sec, you're going to run out of power in just a few feet.

I use it a lot, and it is so useful. But only for fill-flash at close-ish range, and at moderate shutter speeds. If you want a good level of flash light, and high shutter speeds, then you just have to throw money at it. Like this guy Dave Black - eight SB900 guns - £4k plus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNDAINwhTWU

If you just want a low fumber with flash in bright light, then you'll always be better off firing the flash in normal mode and fitting an ND filter to get the shutter speed down to the x-sync.

Edit: this is not true, it turns out the gun I used for testing this figure was down on power. The loss is closer to two stops, not three. See post #11 below. Apologies for the mistake.
 
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Yes, just switching on HSS/FP-sync loses you about three stops of (potential) flash power, and every stop that you raise the shutter speed loses you another stop. So at 1/3200sec, you're going to run out of power in just a few feet.

You know, I'd disagree with you but then I'd spend half the day measuring it again....

Once you exceed native sync speed, power decreases (though IMO nothing like 3 stops for turning it on...). The faster the shutter the lower the available power. At 3,200 it's probably best described as "possibly adding a catchlight" :)

Somebody with half an hour and a light meter could measure the curve for us.
 
You know, I'd disagree with you but then I'd spend half the day measuring it again....

Once you exceed native sync speed, power decreases (though IMO nothing like 3 stops for turning it on...). The faster the shutter the lower the available power. At 3,200 it's probably best described as "possibly adding a catchlight" :)

Somebody with half an hour and a light meter could measure the curve for us.

With my 5D2 and 580EX gun, it is slightly over three stops loss (correction - see late edit) with high speed sync - just by turning it on! :eek: There's an overlap with HSS and you can shoot with either at 1/200sec, and that's what it is - with that camera, and that flash, at that speed.

Other cameras may vary I think, depending on x-sync speed. Cameras with a higher x-sync than my 5D2's 1/200sec may do better than that, depending on whether the camera/flash are optimally configured together (I'm guessing they are, at least partially). I'm not sure if Canon does this with different models, but that's how Pocket Wizard's optimised high speed sync does it.

Edit: you can't test it with a flash meter. The meter measures the full pulse, whereas the shutter only captures a small, and variable, part of it. The meter would measure the same flash in the same way each time, regardless of the shutter speed.

Late edit: this is not true, it turns out the gun I used for testing was down on power. The loss is closer to two stops, not three. See post #11 below. Apologies for the mistake.
 
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Edit: you can't test it with a flash meter. The meter measures the full pulse, whereas the shutter only captures a small, and variable, part of it. The meter would measure the same flash in the same way each time, regardless of the shutter speed.

Ah never thought of that.

It didn't when I tried it ages back with a Nikon - there was a drop off as shutter speed increased. I suspect it gets hit by the first or last pulse from the gun and the power of this decreases as the gun has to make more flashes to cover a shorter duration. But then each bit of the sensor only gets hit by one pulse so my guess is that it would average out.
 
Ah never thought of that.

It didn't when I tried it ages back with a Nikon - there was a drop off as shutter speed increased. I suspect it gets hit by the first or last pulse from the gun and the power of this decreases as the gun has to make more flashes to cover a shorter duration. But then each bit of the sensor only gets hit by one pulse so my guess is that it would average out.

It's complicated, and it varies! But either way, the loss of effective exposure is very substantial with high speed/FP sync. Here is the maths ;)

This is how normal flash sync works with a typical focal plane shutter - and these numbers won't be far out for any camera with an x-sync around 1/200 - 1/250sec. First curtain starts, and take about 3ms to get to the bottom of the frame. The whole sensor is now uncovered and it then waits for 1 or 2ms, during which time the flash has enough time to put out its full power pulse - 1/830th of a second in trhe case of a Canon 580EX. Now the whole of the sensor has been exposed by flash and the second curtain can close, taking another 3ms to cover the whole sensor again. Total shutter cycle time about 8ms.

The difference with high speed/FP sync, is that the flash must put out light continuously for 8ms - about 8x longer - because some part or other of the sensor must be exposed to light for the whole of that time. The flash duration has to be increased by about eight times. In practise, the high speed sync pulse starts fractionally before the shutter even starts to move, and stays on a bit longer, just to be sure. It is actually continuous light, for that brief period of time.

That's how is works in principle but there is obviously room to improve on that. A camera with a faster x-sync speed takes less than 3ms to travel from top to bottom, so the flash doesn't have to burn for so long. And at faster shutter speeds it obviously doesn't hang about fully open at all, and the time between the first and second curtains travelling gets very much smaller (that time is your actual shutter speed and effective exposure time).

So if you had a very fast shutter (eg Canon 1D4 with x-sync at 1/300sec) the travel time for the curtains might be cut from 3ms to 2.5ms, and at say 1/1000sec (1ms) that would give a total shutter cycle time reduced to 6ms.

While that might not seem much different to 8ms, a saving of 2ms actually makes a big difference to the exposure. Therefore if the flash can be configured to burn for less time, and the energy concentrated into that shorter burn time, then you'll get more light. And as shutter speeds get higher, the (very fractional) benefit increases.

That how PW's optimised high speed sync works, with the HSS burn time customised both to individual cameras and also to different shutter speeds. With a 1D4 at certain speeds, they can save a stop over the regular Canon system. I don't know how Nikon does it.

As an aside, here's an interesting slow-mo video on a Nikon D3's shutter at work, with timings. Pretty amazing! http://regex.info/blog/2008-09-04/925
 
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In theory I have some spare time on Tuesday, I feel a little test coming on!

How did you get on?

I have an update on my claims above that high speed sync loses you three stops just by turning it it on. It's not that bad, it is nearer two stops as Jonathan suggested.

The Canon 580EX gun I was using for my tests turns out to be down on power for some reason. But I have three other identical 580EX guns and when I checked them all side by side, one other of them showed a loss of around three stops, and the two others were much better at around two stops.

The guns that were down are the two that I use most, so maybe that's a clue. I also have a new 270EX and that showed a drop of exactly two stops when HSS is engaged.

Apologies to all for this. I have ammended my post above.
 
It's actually fairly easily explained (on an SB900). Just reading off the back of the display on the gun, once you go over 250th the flash distance coverage starts to go down. So 20m at 250th f2 drops to 10m at 500th, 6.9m at 1000th, 4.6m at 2000th and 3.2 at 4000th then a constant 2.3m up to 8000th.
So if someones feeling clever and can work out the inverse square law to convert that to stops.
Leaf shutters are probably the only real way forward, hay ho, one day :)
 
It's actually fairly easily explained (on an SB900). Just reading off the back of the display on the gun, once you go over 250th the flash distance coverage starts to go down. So 20m at 250th f2 drops to 10m at 500th, 6.9m at 1000th, 4.6m at 2000th and 3.2 at 4000th then a constant 2.3m up to 8000th.
So if someones feeling clever and can work out the inverse square law to convert that to stops.
Leaf shutters are probably the only real way forward, hay ho, one day :)

Yes, but that's not the question I have been looking at. That is the exposure and range drop as shutter speed increases. Which is simply pro-rata shutter speed, as per a normal ambient light shutter speed change (because FP sync is effectively ambient light, not flash). And those range estimates on the back of the gun are never very precise.

What I'd like to know about Nikon is how much light do you lose, just by switching from normal x-sync flash, to FP/HSS mode. For example, with the gun on full power normal manual mode, adjust the exposure so that it is correct at 1/250sec. Then move to 1/320sec, switch on FP sync, and see how many f/numbers you have to drop in order to restore correct exposure. That would be interesting ;)
 
Interesting update - and pretty close to what gut feel suggested the answer would be. I know if I want to shoot at 1/320 with flash I'll always get better results clawing it down to 1/250.


Leaf shutters are probably the only real way forward, hay ho, one day :)

Or the electronic shutter that they put in the D70 in, um, 2004 :D
 
Ok, not the most scientific test, but FWIW this is:

full power flash (bounced) 250th F8
Flash-Test-v2-309-2.jpg


jump up to FP 500th sec and you loose a massive 3 stops! down to f2.8
Flash-Test-v2-308-2.jpg


1000th sec down to f2 (prob should be more like 1.8 to match the others)
Flash-Test-v2-307-2.jpg


2000th sec f 1.4
Flash-Test-v2-306-2.jpg


Last one is a tad dark, but ran out of stops!

Conclusion? It works but not exactly impressive :)

Or the electronic shutter that they put in the D70 in, um, 2004

Quite!

Er, yeah, hello Nikon, what was so bad about those shutters you stopped making them?
 
Ok, not the most scientific test, but FWIW this is:

<snip>

Conclusion? It works but not exactly impressive :)

That's a perfect test :) I like rough science, so long as it is sound, and those are real images.

So It would seem fair to say that if you could engage HSS at max x-sync speed of 1/250sec (which you can with Canon, though I'm not sure why you would every want to) the loss would be close to two stops. In line with Canon.

Thanks useful to know. Thanks!

[Quite!

Er, yeah, hello Nikon, what was so bad about those shutters you stopped making them?

D40/D70 etc used CCD sensors, as did the original Canon 1D in 2001, which also had 1/500sec x-sync with the sensor switching trick.

But they are all CMOS in DSLRs now, I'm not sure why. Compacts still have CCDs, and sensor switching providing much higher x-sync. One reason why the Canon G-series compacts are popular with strobists, running up to 1/1000sec I think without engaging HSS.
 
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