Nightclub photography - tips?

oohweewee said:
My new 430EX II flash unit arrived today and to be perfectly honest, I know very little about features, settings, etc. Some of you guys refer to 'second curtain sync' and 'rear curtain sync' for nightclub shots - can anyone simplify the terms?
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basically means the flash goes off at the end of the exposure rather than the beginning. does that make sense?
 
Basically usually when you press the shutter it goes:

Mirror up -> Flash -> Expose -> Mirror down

But with rear/second sync it goes:

Mirror Up -> Expose -> Flash -> Mirror down

It basically ensures that the part of the image that has been exposed the most (the part when the flash on) is the most dominant part of the image, it also helps when using flash with light trail pictures.

thanks,
 
oohweewee said:
My new 430EX II flash unit arrived today and to be perfectly honest, I know very little about features, settings, etc. Some of you guys refer to 'second curtain sync' and 'rear curtain sync' for nightclub shots - can anyone simplify the terms?
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It seems your asking the same question a few times here, if your having trouble or don't understand certain bits or anything else for that matter, let us know and we can help, its far more effective than going round in circles. :thumbs:
 
Thanks for the info on settings etc. I'm not a clubber tog (having said that, sounds great fun !)
I have photographed several "battle of the bands" competitions as my son plays in a group.
I'm learning more about which settings work best on differently lit stages, and also when to take the snap, waiting for the singer or guitarist to "hold a pose" rather than windmilling their arms or head banging.
 
oohweewee said:
OK guys, I took your advice and did my first NC shoot on Wed; the fist 25 shots are mine and any CC would be greatly appreciated...

http://uk.tilllate.com/en/photoalbum/overview/9028976#p1
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Congrats on joining tilllate, welcome to the team :D

I have been with tilllate for just under 2 years now and I can say with confidence that the first report from junior's never look like your report, you have got exposure nailed, nice cropping on the pictures and captured the atmosphere well.

Carry on the good work and you will be a senior in no time.
 
This was achieved with a slow shutter speed (1/4 or less) 2nd sync with the flash & move the camera in an arc & take a succesion of photos.

1553_1379072.jpg
 
Elp! just got a second hand canon 350d body - choosing the right lens for shooting in a nightclub is tricky! narrowed it down to the following:

1. SIGMA 30mm F 1.4 EX DC HSM For Canon

2. Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM for Canon

any other suggestions? which one would be best? i havent got a speedlite 480ex yet.

ONce i get this ill go about shooting.
 
well there is no 480 ex, theres a 430 or a 580 :D

I would tbh start with the kit at 18mm then see what ya want. get a diffuser of some sort for the speedlight aswell
 
ok so get the supplied lens, then the speedlite with diffuser THEN the lens if required?
 
oohweewee said:
My new 430EX II flash unit arrived today and to be perfectly honest, I know very little about features, settings, etc. Some of you guys refer to 'second curtain sync' and 'rear curtain sync' for nightclub shots - can anyone simplify the terms?
Click to expand...

simple explanation is.... you don't need it! If anything it confuses the people you're photographing if you're dragging the shutters for particularly durations.
 
steveOooo said:
Elp! just got a second hand canon 350d body - choosing the right lens for shooting in a nightclub is tricky! narrowed it down to the following:

1. SIGMA 30mm F 1.4 EX DC HSM For Canon

2. Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM for Canon

any other suggestions? which one would be best? i havent got a speedlite 480ex yet.

ONce i get this ill go about shooting.
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The Sigma 10-20 is too wide really and quite slow if you want lowish ISO... yep it has aammmaazzzinn angle of view, but if you catch peoples head's close to the border it looks like they've had their head stretched in a vice - you'll naff off people that will look at the photo and tell you you've made them look a munterpig and as a result you'll get naffed off with the lens pretty quickly. A good range I use is 16-35 that should cover everything from moderate sized group shots to billy no mates, if that's too pricey, then the Canon 17-40 is good and you can use F/4 without much trouble. Sigma do a 17-35mm f/2.8-4. and a 18-50 F/2.8, tamron do similar :)

ads
 
rotherad said:
Basically usually when you press the shutter it goes:

Mirror up -> Flash -> Expose -> Mirror down

But with rear/second sync it goes:

Mirror Up -> Expose -> Flash -> Mirror down

It basically ensures that the part of the image that has been exposed the most (the part when the flash on) is the most dominant part of the image, it also helps when using flash with light trail pictures.

thanks,
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There is a lot of reference to second curtain sync in this thread. Can somebody tell me why it makes any difference?

The explanation quoted above is not true - the flash image is equally dominant whether it is made at the start or finish of the exposure. And the light trails have nothing to do with the flash at all.

Or is it just an urban myth?
 
HoppyUK said:
There is a lot of reference to second curtain sync in this thread. Can somebody tell me why it makes any difference?
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Basically it changes whether your light trails run to your subject, or from your subject. If that makes sense.

There's a really simple and clear example floating around online somewhere.. A person walking from right to left across the frame with a lit sparkler in their hand.

1st curtain sync, the person appears on the right of frame and the light trail from the sparkler extends out in front of them to the left of frame.

2nd curtain sync, the person appears at the left of frame with the light trail drawn behind them.

So, in that situation, most people would read the 2nd curtain shot as being more 'natural'. As it appears the trail has been drawn out as they walked across.

For nightclubs it's down to a bit of personal preference and a bit depends on what you're actually shooting.

EDIT: 2nd sync is often used for motion shots of people. For example someone running. As you will get a sharp figure with the blur extending behind them. If you shot it 1st curtain, then the blur would extend away from them, and there's a good chance the flashed figure wouldn't be as sharp either.
 
Jayst84 said:
Basically it changes whether your light trails run to your subject, or from your subject. If that makes sense.

There's a really simple and clear example floating around online somewhere.. A person walking from right to left across the frame with a lit sparkler in their hand.

1st curtain sync, the person appears on the right of frame and the light trail from the sparkler extends out in front of them to the left of frame.

2nd curtain sync, the person appears at the left of frame with the light trail drawn behind them.

So, in that situation, most people would read the 2nd curtain shot as being more 'natural'. As it appears the trail has been drawn out as they walked across.

For nightclubs it's down to a bit of personal preference and a bit depends on what you're actually shooting.

EDIT: 2nd sync is often used for motion shots of people. For example someone running. As you will get a sharp figure with the blur extending behind them. If you shot it 1st curtain, then the blur would extend away from them, and there's a good chance the flashed figure wouldn't be as sharp either.
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Yes, that makes perfect sense. And when you're shooting something that is moving in a predictable direction, such as your example, and it is better for the light trails to extend in a certain direction, then it's important.

What I don't understand is why so many people on here are saying it makes a difference to these night club shots where the movement is naturally unpredictable, and it doesn't matter in which direction the trails move in relation to the flash image.

There seems to be some assumption that if the flash is fired last, then it somehow overlays the image and becomes more visible, than if it was fired first. The sensor doesn't work like that, it doesn't give any kind of priority to the order in which light arrives.

Furthermore, if you are trying to capture unpredictable movement, then the best time to do that is as close to the time you press the shutter as possible. It's not going to make much difference with a relatively short exposure of 1/10sec, but when you get over 1/4sec and longer then normal first curtain sync will improve your hit rate as far as capturing something like the fleeting expression of the subject is concerned.

Which suggests to me that second curtain sync will not make any difference to most of the pictures here, but in some situations with slow-sync flash, first curtain will be better.
 
HoppyUK said:
What I don't understand is why so many people on here are saying it makes a difference.....
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Maybe so many people say this because it does make a siginificant difference and maybe your having difficulty understanding how it works, but rather than trying to comprehend it all you feel compelled to argue the toss.
Seems to be becoming a regular characteristic from you Hoppy.

HoppyUK said:
Which suggests to me that second curtain sync will not make any difference to most of the pictures here, but in some situations with slow-sync flash, first curtain will be better.
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How often do you use these slow shutter techniques? By the sounds of it = rarely if at all.

Try to think about flash duration and just how fast that is.
At faster sync speeds it really does not make a difference at all but at slow sync speeds it really does.

Another way of looking at it would be:
First curtain sync = 'Flash and burn', Rear curtain sync = 'burn and flash'.

Your burning in your ambient then the flash fires into the scene just before the shutter closes, the flash duration is 1/1000th's of a second. It's not just about having natural kinetics, it's about getting a sharp result at slow shutter speeds.

That's basically an explanation from Joe McNally.

Are you going to argue that Joe's got it all wrong too?
 
Hi Thomas. I think we have met before on this topic, when you thanked CT for this post. Why are you persisting with the same misinformation?

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=10271&highlight=curtain

The example shown proves that it makes no difference at all to the relative exposure levels of flash and ambient light whether the flash is fired first or last.

If a better understanding is helpful to others, I will debate anything with anyone, including Joe McNally, when I think what I am saying is right. Slow-sync photography, dragging the shutter if you like, and fill-flash have been favourite techniques of mine for several decades. I think I've tried everything, including second curtain sync, in clubs and parties, and I think I know how it works.

In the situations cited here, first or second curtain sync makes no difference. But to imply that second curtain somehow reduces ghosting of the ambient image, which is what you're suggesting, is not true. If it was, the whole theory of exposure would be turned on its head.
 
HoppyUK said:
Hi Thomas. I think we have met before on this topic, when you thanked CT for this post. Why are you persisting with the same misinformation?

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=10271&highlight=curtain

The example shown proves that it makes no difference at all to the relative exposure levels of flash and ambient light whether the flash is fired first or last.

If a better understanding is helpful to others, I will debate anything with anyone, including Joe McNally, when I think what I am saying is right. Slow-sync photography, dragging the shutter if you like, and fill-flash have been favourite techniques of mine for several decades. I think I've tried everything, including second curtain sync, in clubs and parties, and I think I know how it works.

In the situations cited here, first or second curtain sync makes no difference. But to imply that second curtain somehow reduces ghosting of the ambient image, which is what you're suggesting, is not true. If it was, the whole theory of exposure would be turned on its head.
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FFS!

I thanked CT because he provided a much better explanation than me and also became quite apparent that you didn't quite grasp the subject.

Judging by your persistent and obscure views on the subject I strongly doubt that you have any experience at all, you seem to merely ponder and pontificate.

You really are missing the point and true to form, argue yet again.

I have not once implied that rear curtain reduces ghosting, where you pull this from I have no idea, it's just like the Scrap All Your lenses thread' = Hoppy blasts his mouth off and makes himself look very stupid, Hoppy digs himself deeper and deeper, Hoppy half realizes his errors but still has to argue and argue.

I'm really couldn't give a flying one about any further discussion with you at all. :thumbsdown:

Cue the 'Last comment from Hoppy' below:
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
FFS!

I thanked CT because he provided a much better explanation than me and also became quite apparent that you didn't quite grasp the subject.

Judging by your persistent and obscure views on the subject I strongly doubt that you have any experience at all, you seem to merely ponder and pontificate.

You really are missing the point and true to form, argue yet again.

I have not once implied that rear curtain reduces ghosting, where you pull this from I have no idea, it's just like the Scrap All Your lenses thread' = Hoppy blasts his mouth off and makes himself look very stupid, Hoppy digs himself deeper and deeper, Hoppy half realizes his errors but still has to argue and argue.

I'm really couldn't give a flying one about any further discussion with you at all. :thumbsdown:
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Thomas, you have a short memory. I got the idea from a recent post of yours where you certainly did imply that rear curtain sync reduces ghosting, in reply to a post by dalex. He said "With rear curtain sync this [ghosting] does not happen because the flash lit subject is exposed last and effectively overrides what was already exposed in its place on a frame. To which you replied "Nail. Head. Wallop." Here is the quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by dalex_257
When you fire the flash with at the shutter curtain opening (i.e. front curtain sync) you lit immediately capture the flash lit subject and then continue to capture the unlit areas of the frame (background etc) for the rest of the exposure. This however means that if something happens to your subject during long exposure (it moves away or something will pass in front of it etc) it gets blended with the original flash exposed one. So you may end up with weird looking subject (transparent or some ghosting images through it). With rear curtain sync this does not happen because the flash lit subject is exposed last and effectively overrides what was already exposed in its place on a frame.

And your reply:

Quote:

Nail. Head. Wallop

Rear curtain sync is pretty much like a full stop and the end of a sentence, the flash being the punctuation at the end of the frame.

Last edited by Tomas Whitehouse; 10-03-2009 at 11:43.

Even if you have now changed your mind, there are others that clearly believe that second curtain sync is a vital component of this kind of photography. It is not, it makes no difference, and nobody has said anything to change that. I think it's important for folks to understand why these things happen, and what is making the difference here. It's a small point maybe, but the principle is fundamental to a sound understanding of exposure.

And please don't say that I have no experience of what I'm talking about. It's rude. You don't know that, and it's not relevant anyway. Is what's being posted right or wrong? That's what matters.
 
ConfusedChicca said:
Getting work through DSI is extremely difficult, you have to have spotted at least 500 people before the Admin can try and approach promoters for you. Get out and network, be prepared to pay into clubs for a while til you have a decent club portfolio.
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its not really work though since you don't get paid and DSI reap all the benifits and profits.
 
ConfusedChicca said:
I won't give settings away but everything you learn about photography usiually gets thrown out of the window in a nightclub.
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so getting good composition, balanced ambient/subject lighting, DOF, etc don't count in nightclubs. now I see where I've been going wrong :bang:
 
Good on her for only being into club photography for 18 months and keeping her settings secret. Since I've been doing club photography since 2003 maybe I should keep my settings super secret :D

Quite true on the whole "working" for DSI. They get free content on their site, clubs get free photos from some keen newbie tog and newbie tog spends his/her money on gear for no reward other than entry to club (if they are lucky).

Glad I get paid for my club stuff :D
 
Im usually the boss eh? :D

We do work for a variety of clubs and promoters plus magazines.
 
I have a job on Saturday. If you're using flash in an enclosed space, why do you need high ISO?

With a 50D and a 580EX II, should I shoot on M with ETTL? ...or do you set the flash manually as well?
 
Kryptix said:
I have a job on Saturday. If you're using flash in an enclosed space, why do you need high ISO?

With a 50D and a 580EX II, should I shoot on M with ETTL? ...or do you set the flash manually as well?
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For club photos, you might need to up the ISO to get the background exposure right.

For changing situations, manual flash is a nightmare. You can set it up for one shot, then for the next pic when the subject is a couple of feet closer, it's way over-exposed. I would use ETTL, and Flash Exposure Lock, which prevents the flash exposure changing when the subject is not central (if you use the focus-lock-compose method).
 
Kryptix said:
I have a job on Saturday. If you're using flash in an enclosed space, why do you need high ISO?

With a 50D and a 580EX II, should I shoot on M with ETTL? ...or do you set the flash manually as well?
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to bring in ambient light ;) with high iso and a fairly wide aperture you can leave the flash on ttl and let it sort out subject exposure and bring in the shutter to control ambient light to taste.

if you have a lower iso you can have massive shutter speeds and funky trails but high iso like 1600 means you can keep the BG relatively stable at highish shutters (lik 1/30-1/60). Depends on what kind of shot you're going for
 
iv done a party and had to learn pretty much for myself. i just used a kit 18-55 and a flash. it worked fine for what i needed. they obviously weren't amazing shots, but the people at the party were happy with them and it was the first time i had done it.

i will just say this, you dont have to put the iso up. i had mine at 200. use the flash to freeze things. keep your shutter speed pretty similar throughout if the ambiant light is the same. and use then aperture to control the flash and change a stop or 2 depending on how close the subject is. also, if you set your flash to rear curtain sync then it will fire at the end of the exposure and will freeze the subject, even if there are light trails or movement in the rest of the shot. just try different things. but i kept what i just said in mind when taking, just experimented a bit.

good luck
 
Kryptix said:
I have a job on Saturday. If you're using flash in an enclosed space, why do you need high ISO?

With a 50D and a 580EX II, should I shoot on M with ETTL? ...or do you set the flash manually as well?
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higher ISO will allow more ambiant light to come in
 
Oh God ...... what a mess this thread has become ....... a massive swirl of info ..... i think my head is gonna pop :-)

Just go do it, if you can use your camera on manual and change setting in the dark .... you'll pick the other stuff up.

It will take about 4 years before you get your first paid job ...... no .... dont stay in .... make that 5 years ..... er ..... till late ...... 6 years ..... harder faster .... 7 years .... oh heck .... just go do weddings :-)
 
I'm going to be doing a shoot in an Edinburgh nightclub tomorrow night. I have a quick question. I want to make sure my lens doesn't sustain any damage to the front element through bumps and knocks and want to keep my UV filter on it. That shouldn't cause flaring problems in conjunction with the flash, but might cause problems with club lighting if shooting directly at the light source. Am I correct and what would you do?
 
leave it on, hood will stop most of the flare. never got any in my time shooting in clubs
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, that makes perfect sense. And when you're shooting something that is moving in a predictable direction, such as your example, and it is better for the light trails to extend in a certain direction, then it's important.

What I don't understand is why so many people on here are saying it makes a difference to these night club shots where the movement is naturally unpredictable, and it doesn't matter in which direction the trails move in relation to the flash image.

There seems to be some assumption that if the flash is fired last, then it somehow overlays the image and becomes more visible, than if it was fired first. The sensor doesn't work like that, it doesn't give any kind of priority to the order in which light arrives.

Furthermore, if you are trying to capture unpredictable movement, then the best time to do that is as close to the time you press the shutter as possible. It's not going to make much difference with a relatively short exposure of 1/10sec, but when you get over 1/4sec and longer then normal first curtain sync will improve your hit rate as far as capturing something like the fleeting expression of the subject is concerned.

Which suggests to me that second curtain sync will not make any difference to most of the pictures here, but in some situations with slow-sync flash, first curtain will be better.
Click to expand...


:eek: Maybe that's it, Hoppy - maybe you've just discovered ConfusedChicca's "secret setting" (she uses front curtain flash, instead of rear :D)!?


I have to say, I have no intention of doing any of this kind of work, but it's given me some ideas of how this technique could be used in other situations, so thanks to everyone who has shared their experience/wisdom in this thread :thumbs:.
 
rotherad said:
I have worked for tilllate.com for the last two years as a tog and can say that they do train you in all aspects and it is good training as well, not to be bad mouthing the competition but tilllate are known to have the monopoly on both training and the quality of the pics.
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Im sorry about the old post but I really really just wet myself laughing on that one.

When i was 'trained', I knew more than the person training me, he knew **** all.

and quality of pics from the sony cameras most people borrow? :bonk:
 
That is a bit of a classic quote. All you need to know about low light nightclub shooting in 10 minutes with a kit lens :)
 
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