next step from 400mm

mercmanuk

mercmanuk

Suspended / Banned
Messages
1,822
Edit My Images
Yes
i need to research the len's that are available with IS OS canon sigma which take me past the 400mm---cost has to be my first regard.

150-500mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM---or 200-500 HSM

What are the options in canon >>>apart from a second mortgage:lol:

is it Sigma all the way past 400mm or are there any other options. or would a extender be the cheaper option >>canon x1.4/x2 i know i would loose auto focus but what about IS or OS, would that be lost as well, applications for the len's wildlife and air shows, both would offer opportunities for the shot to be set up so a fast reaction may not be the top priority, but IS and OS would be.

regards Mark
 
Canon lenses with IS still have IS when used with an Extender, even if you can't AF.

The only Canon lenses that go beyond 400mm are the big L series primes - 500/4, 600/4, 800/5.6, 1200/5.6 (used only). You could sell a kidney if you don't want to take out a second mortgage, but for the 1200 yyou'd probably need to do both.
 
This is the time in your photography where you have to decide if you want to spend serious £££. I can't really think of any lenses that would suit all of your requirements (that have really decent image quality).
The only thing i can think of is to not have IS, use a tripod and get a canon 400 f5.6 L (the prime), a 1.4 converter and tape the pins and hope that it still AFs.
Whether it still AFs will depend on your camera and a bit of luck. Some people still have good single shot AF with this and good light.

The 400 F5.6 is a very very sharp lens when used correctly, even with a 1.4 converter.

Or you could start scrimping and saving for a big canon prime...
 
hi yes i have read about taping pins.. would a x1.4 work at an air show, i may loose IS bout for panning canon say turn IS off, but then in mode 2 would the 100-400mm AF ??????? Evan with the pins taped, it's time canon filled this gap in the market, although Sigma do have the 150-500 OS HSM which at under £700 BNIB deserves a look at.

Regards Mark.
 
mercmanuk said:
hi yes i have read about taping pins.. would a x1.4 work at an air show, i may loose IS bout for panning canon say turn IS off, but then in mode 2 would the 100-400mm AF ??????? Evan with the pins taped, it's time canon filled this gap in the market, although Sigma do have the 150-500 OS HSM which at under £700 BNIB deserves a look at.

Regards Mark.
Click to expand...

Hi,

taping the pins of a Canon 100-400 L IS will work, however its not really recommended as it 'can' burn out the AF motor, however I would still go for a Canon 100-400 L IS over the Sigma equivalents as it will be far better in my opinion, I've not seen any decent pics from the Sigma 150-500 yet but there are certainly plenty from the Canon, ok you will lose 100mm at the long end but for airshows this is hardly an issue unless you are miles away, and I am sure a pic cropped to the same size from the Canon will still look better than the same size pic from the Sigma.

A used 100-400 can be had for around £700 and less, just make sure it isn't over 4 years old ( check the date code ) as the older versions had poorer IS than the more recent models ;)

Also bear in mind that the Sigma 150-500 is not an EX designated lens ( pro ), but the Canon 100-400 is an L lens which is pro build quality, this is of course reflected in the new price of the lens', the Sigma is £610 whereas the Canon is £950 or so.

To summarise, if I had the choice of the two talked about above then it would be a used Canon 100-400 over a new Sigma 150-500 ;)

Oh, and taping the pins on a TC will have no effect on the IS. The other option is to buy a 1d Series camera and this will AF with the Canon 100-400 :D

Mike.
 
Hi mikeyB i have a 100-400mm lens 4 months old but was looking to add to my collection, yes i have heard about the len's hunting with a taped extender pins.

My quandary is what is after the 400mm consumer price bracket of £1200.00 it seams a big jump to a 500mm lens, there's a gap in the market, if canon produced a 150-500mm-200-600mm IS USM for the same price or a bit more as Sigma i think the the flood gates would open, so where do i go as a average tog to get what i want, but in your post we have a 1D mentioned that will get round this problem, so 1D ..x1.4 teleconverter 100-400mm lens = 140mm-560mm with AF,what about the x2 extender will there be some loss of picture quality,

X2 = 200mm-800mm on a 1D AF IS USM this could be the way to go

just one more thing in a earlier threat started by me i asked the question about Full Frame and was there any need to go on and spend £4k + when a 5D @ £1.2 k would do....well there you go i have changed my opinion, and it would be cheaper than a 500mm lens

Regards Mark.
 
mikeyb said:
however I would still go for a Canon 100-400 L IS over the Sigma equivalents as it will be far better in my opinion,
Click to expand...

Have you used the 100-400L IS? You seem to make a big sweeping statement there without considering the main competition to this lens which isn't the 150-500, its the sigma 120-400 OS.

I haven't used the canon 100-400, but I do have the 120-400 OS and it's superb! Check out the reviews and the price (can be had for £500 brand new in the UK). Its pin sharp at 5.6 down to around 300ish and at 400 stopped down to 7.1 its still very sharp.

The OS claims 4-stop shake reduction, although i've only had it out a few days i'd say it's more like 3-stop.
 
CraigDouglas said:
Have you used the 100-400L IS? You seem to make a big sweeping statement there without considering the main competition to this lens which isn't the 150-500, its the sigma 120-400 OS.

I haven't used the canon 100-400, but I do have the 120-400 OS and it's superb! Check out the reviews and the price (can be had for £500 brand new in the UK). Its pin sharp at 5.6 down to around 300ish and at 400 stopped down to 7.1 its still very sharp.

The OS claims 4-stop shake reduction, although i've only had it out a few days i'd say it's more like 3-stop.
Click to expand...


Hi,

I have owned and used the Canon 100-400 ;) as well as a Sigma 100-300 F4, and currently own a Sigma 500mm F4.5 prime which blows all of the above out of the water ;), I only picked on the Sigma 150-500 as it was mentioned by the OP, I have seen some samples from the 120-400 but of the ones I've seen I was unimpressed, not bad for the money but not as good as the Canon in my opinion. Sharpness in a lens isn't all you should be looking for, there is colour and contrast, there are plenty of sharp lens' out there but it's the look of the image that counts too.

Remember Craig it's only my opinion and I was advising the OP accordingly.

Mike.
 
following on from the earlier thread and price being the driver

1D £1,049

extender £199.00 this could be purchased cheaper.


500mm £3696 this could be got cheaper ...it's a prime

so £3696 - £1248---for the 1D+x1.4 or x2, that a saving of £2448.00

Even if bought the one for sale on here you would still save £973.00

thats a big + for the 1D

if i factor in the 500mm sigma @ £2554 it is still a saving of £1306, with the second hand 1D set up with a extender.

Ain't forums wonderful places after 10 Min's i could already save about £1500.00, and i have a reason the buy a 1D my life is full of joy >>>WARNING do not attempt to burst this bubble as it is going so well at the moment, just to recap the 1D will AF with a extender -1.4 or dare i say x2 coupled to a 100-400mm L IS USM len's. with no problems


regards Mark.
 
mercmanuk said:
Hi mikeyB i have a 100-400mm lens 4 months old but was looking to add to my collection, yes i have heard about the len's hunting with a taped extender pins.

My quandary is what is after the 400mm consumer price bracket of £1200.00 it seams a big jump to a 500mm lens, there's a gap in the market, if canon produced a 150-500mm-200-600mm IS USM for the same price or a bit more as Sigma i think the the flood gates would open, so where do i go as a average tog to get what i want, but in your post we have a 1D mentioned that will get round this problem, so 1D ..x1.4 teleconverter 100-400mm lens = 140mm-560mm with AF,what about the x2 extender will there be some loss of picture quality,

X2 = 200mm-800mm on a 1D AF IS USM this could be the way to go

just one more thing in a earlier threat started by me i asked the question about Full Frame and was there any need to go on and spend £4k + when a 5D @ £1.2 k would do....well there you go i have changed my opinion, and it would be cheaper than a 500mm lens

Regards Mark.
Click to expand...
Hi Mark,

ok then I would stick with the 100-400 in the meantime, and save hard for the Canon 500 F4 IS or you might even consider going the 300 F2.8 IS route with both extenders which were designed with this type of lens in mind so suit it superbly well, the Canon 2x wouldn't really be recommended for the 100-400 Lens but it still looks pretty good on the 300 F2.8 IS and will still AF on a 30D/40D etc, used prices of a 300mm F2.8 IS are around £2000 about £1000 less than the 500mm ;), the 300mm will be more versatile than the 500, not easy hunting the skies with a 500mm prime I can tell you, this is where the 100-400 zoom excels, to be able to compose the shot and then zoom is probably it's biggest selling point.

I love my 500mm Siggy but it is up for sale to fund a 300mm F2.8 IS as I feel this would suit my shooting a bit better, not worried about losing reach, just means I work to get closer to my subjects, but I feel the 300 will give me more shooting opportunities, you can sometimes get TOO close with 500mm, try using one at a zoo for instance ;)

Mike.
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

taping the pins of a Canon 100-400 L IS will work, however its not really recommended as it 'can' burn out the AF motor, however I would still go for a Canon 100-400 L IS over the Sigma equivalents as it will be far better in my opinion, I've not seen any decent pics from the Sigma 150-500 yet but there are certainly plenty from the Canon, ok you will lose 100mm at the long end but for airshows this is hardly an issue unless you are miles away, and I am sure a pic cropped to the same size from the Canon will still look better than the same size pic from the Sigma.

A used 100-400 can be had for around £700 and less, just make sure it isn't over 4 years old ( check the date code ) as the older versions had poorer IS than the more recent models ;)

Also bear in mind that the Sigma 150-500 is not an EX designated lens ( pro ), but the Canon 100-400 is an L lens which is pro build quality, this is of course reflected in the new price of the lens', the Sigma is £610 whereas the Canon is £950 or so.

To summarise, if I had the choice of the two talked about above then it would be a used Canon 100-400 over a new Sigma 150-500 ;)

Oh, and taping the pins on a TC will have no effect on the IS. The other option is to buy a 1d Series camera and this will AF with the Canon 100-400 :D
Mike.
Click to expand...


This is the best news i have had since my last best news, which wasn't that best as it was to do with my peripheral nervous system:lol: i could be hovering over my CCard and be buying a 1D at any moment, god i hope the wife's memory is as bad as mine ;):lol:

Regards |mark
 
just to recap the 1D will AF with a extender -1.4 or dare i say x2 coupled to a 100-400mm L IS USM len's. with no problems
Click to expand...

Yes.

1D Mark II for sale on POTN - HERE for £880, and I know where there is a 1.4x TC ;-)

But remember you will gain only a little reach with the 1D even with the TC so not gaining all that much, the 400mm end of the Canon is 640mm on a 1.6x factor body but it then becomes 520mm on the 1D and even adding the TC will only bring it to 728mm, not a lot more more quite a bit more cash.

You do however gain (Centre Point ?) AF on the 1D.

One more thing to note that the Sigma 500mm F4.5 Ex will NOT AF with a TC on a 1D series camera even although it should it was disabled in a firmware upgrade by Canon, some say it might even have been done deliberately to prevent loss of sales of their 500mm F4 IS, only 1D's with Firmware version 1.0.0 will AF with that lens and a TC, it looks like 1.0.03 removed that option !!

Mike.
 
Another one to throw into the mix, how about the Sigma 300mm f/2.8 EX DG HSM with a 2x TC? that would give you 600mm 5.6 and weigh less than 3kg while still keeping AF. With a 1.4TC you'd have a 420 F4 :thumbs:

Although this would have no IS/OS but the faster aperture may make up for this?
 
CraigDouglas said:
Another one to throw into the mix, how about the Sigma 300mm f/2.8 EX DG HSM with a 2x TC? that would give you 600mm 5.6 and weigh less than 3kg while still keeping AF. With a 1.4TC you'd have a 420 F4 :thumbs:

Although this would have no IS/OS but the faster aperture may make up for this?
Click to expand...

He he, we're not really helping are we, mind you great fun trying to spend someone else's money, I would say the 120-300 F2.8 is sharper and better then the 300mm F2.8, but it isn't really a 120-300 it's reputed to be only 120-280 or so, the 300mm prime is a good lens but the OP would lose reach over his 100-400 for not a lot of gain in image quality, he would however gain speed which can be useful at times especially with wildlife etc.

That CC must be getting pretty sweaty by now :D

Mike.
 
Think seriously about the forthcoming Canon 50D before you part with your hard earned dosh. At 15 million pixels on a 1.6X crop sensor, this camera will significantly increase the reach of any lens, including those you already have! ;)
 
CT said:
Think seriously about the forthcoming Canon 50D before you part with your hard earned dosh. At 15 million pixels on a 1.6X crop sensor, this camera will significantly increase the reach of any lens, including those you already have! ;)
Click to expand...

Hi Cedric,

totally agree with you, and I hope I got this across in my previous post about the crop factor etc although I feel we may be too late :'(.

Mind you I went the 1D route but this was to gain better, faster and more AF points than my 30D, if I'd known the 1D and Sigma 500mm F4.5 wouldn't AF with a TC I might have made a different decision, however the handling of the 1D is superb and I can't bring myself to go back, a 2nd body is what's needed for me.

Mike.
 
Some other considerations....

Yes- you lose AF on a non 1 Series Canon body with a 2X TC unless the max aperture is f2.8 or larger... BUT...

The Canon 20D with a 1.4x TC produces the same size 1:1 image of that sparrer as a 2X TC on a 1DMK2n. In fact, it would be very marginally larger, but not enough to make a song and dance about.

The situation would be exactly the same comparing the Canon 40D to the Canon 1DMK3, as they both output the same size 1:1 file.

The advantages of that retained AF with the 1 Series and 2X TC start to pale a little, and the ultimate reach still goes to the 1.6X crop sensor and 2X TC, albeit with manual focus.

The 50D raises the game yet again in favour of the 1.6 crop sensor, and by a very significant amount.
 
mikeyb said:
however the handling of the 1D is superb and I can't bring myself to go back, a 2nd body is what's needed for me.
Click to expand...

LOL. Mike I do hear you mate, :lol:
 
CT said:
The 50D raises the game yet again in favour of the 1.6 crop sensor, and by a very significant amount.
Click to expand...

Mathematically, it does.....but will this "advantage" be seen in reality?

I assume that CA and lens resolution is always going to be a factor.

Taking CA specifically then the lower pixel density sensor is less likely to highlight it. Increasing pixel density and using this "advantage" to crop further is very likely to highlight some CA that was previously unrecorded. I suspect that some of the wide zooms and super-teles could well be tested by the increased "crop for reach" theory.

Bob
 
if my memory serves me correctly, my 1d bodies will AF with both 1.4x and 2x canon tele's stacked together on a 300mmf2.8 canon.

what is it you are wanting to shoot out of interest? this would have a huge factor on which way to jump imo.
 
Canon Bob said:
Mathematically, it does.....but will this "advantage" be seen in reality?

I assume that CA and lens resolution is always going to be a factor.

Taking CA specifically then the lower pixel density sensor is less likely to highlight it. Increasing pixel density and using this "advantage" to crop further is very likely to highlight some CA that was previously unrecorded. I suspect that some of the wide zooms and super-teles could well be tested by the increased "crop for reach" theory.

Bob
Click to expand...

The advantage was very real for me Bob, and I did exhaustive comparisons between 20D and 1DMK2n images, before I parted with the latter and it wasn't a decision I took lightly, I loved the thing, but much as I like nice gear, what really matters to me is the image I'm getting.

I've not found CA to be any noticeable problem so far.

What you should be doing Roberto, is taking any of your favourite bird images, duplicating it, and interpolating the duplicate up the max file size of the 50D , then comparing the two images, especially as you've just invested in that 600mm lens. :D
 
CT said:
I've not found CA to be any noticeable problem so far.

What you should be doing Roberto, is taking any of your favourite bird images, duplicating it, and interpolating the duplicate up the max file size of the 50D , then comparing the two images, especially as you've just invested in that 600mm lens. :D
Click to expand...

Secondly first (:thinking:)....I have been flat on my back since the 600 arrived...I can't even lift the allen key to put the Wimberley plate on it.

And firstly (second)...
CA is "produced" by the optics and captured by the sensor so interpolating an image to greater resolution will not mimic it. I understood your original post to imply that the higher pixel density would give more pixels per birdie and hence allow greater cropping whilst maintaining the same number of pixels. My assumption is that a higher pixel density is more likely to capture CA than a lower density. Keeping the crop ratio the same and having more pixels in the final frame wouldn't highlight the CA, and neither would it increase the reach, but cropping tighter to keep the same number of captured pixels is likely to show more (if there is any) CA.

Am I missing the point here?

Bob

Edit...it would be interesting to try a test with a 75-300 (chronic CA sufferer) and see whether the CA looks worse on a crop or a FF sensor when crop to a matching frame.
 
Canon Bob said:
Secondly first (:thinking:)....I have been flat on my back since the 600 arrived...I can't even lift the allen key to put the Wimberley plate on it.

Bob
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

sorry to hear that, nothing worse than a sore back, just a thought but you could send the lens etc up to me and I'll sort it for you :D

Mike.
 
Well - I think you're placing the emphasis on CA Bob, so in that sense I think you are missing the point. I'm talking about very real advantages in the size of the output 1:1 image.

As I said earlier I've not noticed any problem with CA, but I'd expect to see that in areas of marked differing contrast -when shooting up into trees against the sky, being an obvious example. Generally speaking, I try to avoid those images anyway, not because of CA considerations, but because they seldom produce good images (of birds anyway)

Bummer about the back mate!:(
 
mikeyb said:
Hi Bob,
sorry to hear that, nothing worse than a sore back, just a thought but you could send the lens etc up to me and I'll sort it for you :D
Mike.
Click to expand...

No problem...just PM me your address and I'll ignore it ;)

CT said:
Bummer about the back mate!:(
Click to expand...

Yep....missing out on all the best of the summer weather !
What I do have though is the pattern of the ceiling Artex etched on my retina :gag:
 
How long before you're up and about Bob, any idea?
 
CT said:
How long before you're up and about Bob, any idea?
Click to expand...
I've been to the Oesteopath daily for the past 4 weeks and today he's told me to come back Friday as the disc appears to have stayed put. The back feels much better now but I've got sciatica in my left leg. This turns any attempt at walking into a frantic hobble...too much of which is not good for my back....and endless circle.

Wait until you reach 50.....these things'll start to afflict you too !

Bob
 
Well, as this thread has underlined, there are may ways to take your reach beyond that significant 400mm marker.

Some are well priced, some render good image quality. None offer both.

What you really need to figure out is what are you going to do with the resulting images and what is the value you put on this. Once you've got a solid figure in front of you, it's much easier to evaluate the options.

If all that your images need to do is to be seen on the internet and your screen saver, as so many of all out images do, you are overlooking a very good and totally free way to get that bit closer to your subject.

Crop. :D








OK, now you've all chuckled or rolled an eye, actually give that some serious thought. If you don't need big files it's perfectly valid.
 
50?? Does your mom know you're out on your own?? :lol: I became a state pensioner last month. :'(

Seriously mate, I hope you get it sorted soon. I've never had disc trouble (I'm grabbing my wooden desk as I type that) but a mate of mine does, and he's totally fubar'd when it plays up - going up and down stairs on his arse. He's had the problem since his late 20s too.
 
dazzajl said:
OK, now you've all chuckled or rolled an eye, actually give that some serious thought. If you don't need big files it's perfectly valid.
Click to expand...
LOL. No argument Daz - an 800 pixel image is an 800 pixel image!
 
In my experience the 100-400 is actually better than any 500mm zoom that sigma has.
Photos turned out quite a bit sharper even enlarging a 400mm photo from the canon compared to the original from the sigma 50-500 i've had.
I've also not seen any results from sigma's other 500mm zooms posted that are any better than the sigma i had.

Canon's 400 F5.6 prime is generally even sharper than the 100-400, allowing for the 100-400's variation between copies.

As for the pin taping, you can never be sure how well it'll work. It does tend to hunt more on the 100-400 than the 400 prime.
It depends on what TC you get and what camera you have.

I'd definitely suggest getting a big canon L prime at this point if you can.

mercmanuk said:
hi yes i have read about taping pins.. would a x1.4 work at an air show, i may loose IS bout for panning canon say turn IS off, but then in mode 2 would the 100-400mm AF ??????? Evan with the pins taped, it's time canon filled this gap in the market, although Sigma do have the 150-500 OS HSM which at under £700 BNIB deserves a look at.

Regards Mark.
Click to expand...
 
Canon Bob said:
Secondly first (:thinking:)....I have been flat on my back since the 600 arrived...I can't even lift the allen key to put the Wimberley plate on it.

And firstly (second)...
CA is "produced" by the optics and captured by the sensor so interpolating an image to greater resolution will not mimic it. I understood your original post to imply that the higher pixel density would give more pixels per birdie and hence allow greater cropping whilst maintaining the same number of pixels. My assumption is that a higher pixel density is more likely to capture CA than a lower density. Keeping the crop ratio the same and having more pixels in the final frame wouldn't highlight the CA, and neither would it increase the reach, but cropping tighter to keep the same number of captured pixels is likely to show more (if there is any) CA.

Am I missing the point here?

Bob

Edit...it would be interesting to try a test with a 75-300 (chronic CA sufferer) and see whether the CA looks worse on a crop or a FF sensor when crop to a matching frame.
Click to expand...


Bob you better let me look after the 600mm for the meantime, it's the worst thing you can do for a disc problem:'( all that weight at one end and you at the other, now, i am a dedicated wheelchair user and i can develop a frame for it to rest on for my chair for a while:lol: if i ever make it down to my sisters who lives in bibury i will call on for a go it's only down the 419, well TBH i wanted a full frame Jobey and this sounds the best way to go 1D x1.4 or x2 canon extender with my 100-400mm, or i may stretch to a 500mm prime with a 1.4 it;s aircraft shows i interested in and wildlife, but not the dusk dawn type, the middle of the day wildlife

kind regards Mark
 
Siggy 300-800.........:thumbs:
 
that looked like the bit of kit i needed F*$£(ING PRICE you made my eyes water, i could have a conservatory for that, well a lean too.:lol:

Regards Mark
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top