New to Printing. A few Questions Please!

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Carl Hall

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Morning! I’ve just started printing my photos thanks to Tim on here who was kind enough to give me his LPL C7700 and a few other bits including a 50mm lens. So far I’ve been printing some 35mm photos that I’ve taken, but as I mainly shoot 120 I need a new lens before I can start printing seriously (Bought an El-Nikkor 80mm f5.6 which can supposedly print 6x7, and should be arriving today or tomorrow). I just wanted to check that my printing process is ok, and I’m not doing anything catastrophically wrong.

I’m using 10x8 Ilford Multigrade IV RC paper, Ilford Multigrade Paper Developer, Ilfostop and Rapid Fixer at the moment, and my print process is as follows so far:
  • Put the bottles of developer (1+9), stop (1+19) and fixer (1+9. Meant to be 1+4 for prints, but I’ll get to that in a bit!) into the sink and fill it up with water to about 22 degress (a couple degrees higher to account for temp drop when it’s sitting and being poured etc)
  • Set the enlarger up and focus it, then adjust the magenta and yellow filters for contrast
  • After about 10 mins in the sink I take the bottles to the shed and pour them into their trays
  • Lights go off, and safelight goes on (homemade box with 9 red LEDs powered by 9v battery)
  • Use a strip of paper (about ¼ of a piece of paper cut lengthways) laid across the photo over an important or contrasty area, then make a test print covering the strip up at intervals (i.e. 8, 16, 24 and 32 secs).
  • Put the test strip in the developer, submerge it using the tongs and then rock the tray back and forth for 55 secs
  • Remove test strip using tongs and drain into developer tray
  • Put test strip un stop bath for 30 seconds, then remove and drain
  • Put test strip in fixer and rock back and forth for 60 seconds (shorter time as it’ll go in the bin soon anway)
  • Remove test strip, turn on lights and pick the best exposure value
  • Turn off lights and then put a whole piece of paper on the easel
  • Expose paper for correct time
  • Put the paper in the developer, submerge it using the tongs and then rock the tray back and forth for 55 secs
  • Remove using tongs and drain into developer tray
  • Put un stop bath for 30 seconds, then remove and drain
  • Put in fixer and rock back and forth for 3-4 minutes
  • Remove and drain, examine to see if there’s anything I want to change, then repeat the process if necessary with any changes
  • Take the final print to the kitchen and rinse for 5 minutes in a washing up basin with constant supply of fresh tap water, draining regularly to remove chemicals (Eventually I’ll have a homemade print washer in the shed using a container with a hosepipe in from the mains and out to the drain)
  • Squeegee the water off using a window squeegee
  • Hang in shed by corner until dry
So that’s my current process based on what I’ve read and seen so far. Anything that I need to change?

Now a few silly noob questions...

Ilford say that a one litre developer solution at 1+9 should last for 40 8x10 prints. I’ve only been printing a few photos every few days so far, and am unsure whether I can re-use this developer? I have used it 3 times so far to do about 8 prints in total, and have stored it in a one litre bottle in between sessions. Still seems to be working fine. Is this acceptable or do I need to chuck it down the sink after each session and mix a fresh batch up each time? As I’ll typically only be printing a couple photos per week, it will cost me a fair bit more to mix up a litre of developer and chuck it away each time.

Second, Can I use the same stop and fixer for film and prints or do they need to be separate, with one lot used for films and one lot used for prints? I have a one litre bottle containing Ilfostop at 1+19 and another one litre bottle containing Rapid Fixer at 1+9. I know that it should be 1+9 for film and 1+4 for prints, but rather than having two bottles mixed up at different concentrations, I’ve just been using the same 1+9 bottle and leaving the prints in the fixer for longer (about 3-4 minutes instead of the recommended 30 seconds). Is this ok?

Really loving the whole printing thing so far, and can’t wait to see what some of my MF photos turn out like! I’ll post some photos when I've done a few so that people can pick holes in them :)

Thanks!

Carl
 
Re the developer if you are going to do more prints in a few days then keeping to used developer should not be a problem, if not then use fresh every time.

re the Fixer, its been a long time since I last developed a film but IIRC film and paper need different concentrations of fixer and although its obvious if your film is under fixed it will not be obvious with your prints, until they start turning brown that is

Are Chemicals that expensive these days to be worried about these things, if not keep everything separate and fresh is the best way.

Paul
 
If you want consistent results you throw all chemicals away after you have finished printing. You should have your neat chemicals in concertina bottles and use as you go. A liter of chemicals for 10x8 is too much 600ml will do.

Also if you say you "set the Magenta and yellow filters for contrast" you cannot do that unless you have a test strip from the negative you are using.You should do the first test strip without any filtration to find out if you need any filtration.Don't use filtration unless you have to it increase exposure time.Also you should be stopping the lens down at least one stop to f4 (if f2.8 max).

You are taking the print out at 55sec you should leave the print in until it is fully developed 90sec that way you know the enlarger exposure is correct if you don't let the paper develop fully you will never know if your exposures are correct. Put the paper face down into the developer and push it down with the tongs that way there is no risk of damaging the print surface.Then turn it over and use the edges of the paper.Use one set of tongs for developer never change or swop them around and one set of tongs for stop bath and fixer they do not contaminate each other.Use the same developing dishes for each chemical every time(the developer dish will go black but it does not matter).
This home made led light needs to be tested to see if it is fogging the paper. In total darkness get lay a ruler across the surface of a piece of 10x8 paper close to the LED light. turn the light on for 5 mins exposing the paper.turn light off and develop the paper if there is a white mark across the paper the light is not safe.

Keep it simple and keep it consistent.
 
Paul-H said:
Re the developer if you are going to do more prints in a few days then keeping to used developer should not be a problem, if not then use fresh every time.

re the Fixer, its been a long time since I last developed a film but IIRC film and paper need different concentrations of fixer and although its obvious if your film is under fixed it will not be obvious with your prints, until they start turning brown that is

Are Chemicals that expensive these days to be worried about these things, if not keep everything separate and fresh is the best way.

Paul
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They're not too expensive, I just don't want to be chucking money away unnecessarily :) if I have to pour it away after each use then that's what I will do :)

Yeah the fixer is 1+4 for prints and 1+9 for film, I was just trying to keep life simple by using the same 1+9 for the prints and fixing for longer, so I'd have less bottles on my shelf. Wasn't sure if that would work tho lol
 
I don't understand why you would have less bottles.You should have three bottles only, all neat concentrations.Developer,stop and fixer.Then each time you do processing you make the chemicals up use them the discard them.
 
shapeshifter said:
If you want consistent results you throw all chemicals away after you have finished printing. You should have your neat chemicals in concertina bottles and use as you go. A liter of chemicals for 10x8 is too much 600ml will do.

Also if you say you "set the Magenta and yellow filters for contrast" you cannot do that unless you have a test strip from the negative you are using.You should do the first test strip without any filtration to find out if you need any filtration.Don't use filtration unless you have to it increase exposure time.Also you should be stopping the lens down at least one stop to f4 (if f2.8 max).

You are taking the print out at 55sec you should leave the print in until it is fully developed 90sec that way you know the enlarger exposure is correct if you don't let the paper develop fully you will never know if your exposures are correct. Put the paper face down into the developer and push it down with the tongs that way there is no risk of damaging the print surface.Then turn it over and use the edges of the paper.Use one set of tongs for developer never change or swop them around and one set of tongs for stop bath and fixer they do not contaminate each other.Use the same developing dishes for each chemical every time(the developer dish will go black but it does not matter).
This home made led light needs to be tested to see if it is fogging the paper. In total darkness get lay a ruler across the surface of a piece of 10x8 paper close to the LED light. turn the light on for 5 mins exposing the paper.turn light off and develop the paper if there is a white mark across the paper the light is not safe.

Keep it simple and keep it consistent.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the detailed reply :) I'll bin the developer each time then I think! Good to know 600ml is a better amount too.

I thought filter number two was considered to be neutral contrast (I could be wrong though!), which is why I set my magenta filter to 41 and yellow to 32, which is supposed to be the equivalent amount. I usually set these values and then do a test strip for every negative that I want to print. The test strip is mostly so that I know the correct exposure. If I need more contrast then I do that afterwards with a new test strip to check the new exposure. Is this the right way to do it? Every print I've done so far has been at f/8.

The reason I take my print out at 55 secs is to allow a few seconds for the developer to run off and drip into the tray before the print goes into the stop bath. The label on the multi grade bottle says one minute for RC paper, so a few seconds less for dripping is about 55. Would I be better waiting the full 60 seconds and then a few seconds of dripping before the stop? Yeah I use one set of tongs for the developer, one for stop and one for fixer. They're all colour coded the same as the trays so it keeps it nice and easy.

I had a look at the paper specs which give the wavelength that affects the paper, then bought LEDs that were out of that range. Before I used the light properly I put a coin on a small piece of paper and then put that directly under the light for ten minutes, then developed it as normal. There wasn't any markings at all on the paper so I figured my light was safe. Good to know I did that but right :D

Thanks again for all the advice :)
 
shapeshifter said:
I don't understand why you would have less bottles.You should have three bottles only, all neat concentrations.Developer,stop and fixer.Then each time you do processing you make the chemicals up use them the discard them.
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I've also got some mixed stop and fixer for film which I reuse quite a few times. And some stock film developer too.

If I mix stop and fixer specifically for printing, am I not able to reuse them then? I thought it was the same as for film, where you can reuse them a few times until they became less efficient.
 
I believe paper is more sensitive to exhausted fixer than film so I understand it is best practice to keep the film and paper fixer separate.
 
dont worry too much about warming the chemicals up , as long as they are at room temperature they will be fine
re use all the chemicals , no need to throw them after each time ,,,,( just as long as you aren't leaving it months on end )
if the developer is exhausted the prints will be contrast less a horrible grey all over .then just mix some more up and away you go again.all youve lost is a piece of paper. i cant remember what the reason was , but im sure i read dont use the same fix for film and paper .
also as shapeshifter said , dont pull the print early ,,,you should be able to leave it in the developer until it goes no blacker (?) if the exposure is correct . i'd try just using white light from the lpl ,,,,,,see what the contrast is like first .
make sure you dont splash any stop into the developer as it will kill it pretty quickly
i use two trays of fixer ,and leave the print in for a couple of minutes in each tray.
 
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You can use all the chemicals over and over again.But you will create problems for yourself if you want high quality and consistency. Developer that has been used to develop a film if used again will not develop the film to the same level of contrast so all your printing and developing times are then different.

With fixer if you use it over and over again, in time one month 10 yrs all your prints may go brown and worse still are your negatives that will go brown and be lost for ever.

If you want to save on chemicals-
Develop the film at the same time do your printing(fresh chemicals) and use the fixer that you used for the film just add some fresh fixer concentrate to it. If you use the same developer for film as printing do likewise it does not matter that much as long as the print is developed fully as previously described you can see it.You cannot see the negative.

The most important thing is not to resuse for developing the film always use fresh as once the negative is knackered so is everything else.
 
If you're using fibre based paper, the rules on fixer change somewhat if you want archival prints.
 
Have you got the negative holders for 120 film?

If not, I have some I made when I had an LPL 6700 (couldn't afford to buy them) and I'm sure they are the same. If they are of any use, you can have them.

Carl Hall said:
The reason I take my print out at 55 secs is to allow a few seconds for the developer to run off and drip into the tray before the print goes into the stop bath.
Click to expand...

There is no need to be that accurate. If you left it in the developer for another couple of minutes it would be fine. I usually wait until the image has got as dense as I think it is going too then give it another minute or two.

Steve.
 
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donut said:
dont worry too much about warming the chemicals up , as long as they are at room temperature they will be fine
re use all the chemicals , no need to throw them after each time ,,,,( just as long as you aren't leaving it months on end )
if the developer is exhausted the prints will be contrast less a horrible grey all over .then just mix some more up and away you go again.all youve lost is a piece of paper. i cant remember what the reason was , but im sure i read dont use the same fix for film and paper .
also as shapeshifter said , dont pull the print early ,,,you should be able to leave it in the developer until it goes no blacker (?) if the exposure is correct . i'd try just using white light from the lpl ,,,,,,see what the contrast is like first .
make sure you dont splash any stop into the developer as it will kill it pretty quickly
i use two trays of fixer ,and leave the print in for a couple of minutes in each tray.
Click to expand...

They're currently stored in the shed on the bench where I'm doing my printing, as I don't have any space to print. I just warm the bottles up because they're like 10 degrees otherwise :)

I wasn't aware that developer would only developer the paper to a certain point, I thought it was like film where you had to take it out at the right time so that it didn't go too far. Good to know! Cheers
 
shapeshifter said:
You can use all the chemicals over and over again.But you will create problems for yourself if you want high quality and consistency. Developer that has been used to develop a film if used again will not develop the film to the same level of contrast so all your printing and developing times are then different.

With fixer if you use it over and over again, in time one month 10 yrs all your prints may go brown and worse still are your negatives that will go brown and be lost for ever.

If you want to save on chemicals-
Develop the film at the same time do your printing(fresh chemicals) and use the fixer that you used for the film just add some fresh fixer concentrate to it. If you use the same developer for film as printing do likewise it does not matter that much as long as the print is developed fully as previously described you can see it.You cannot see the negative.

The most important thing is not to resuse for developing the film always use fresh as once the negative is knackered so is everything else.
Click to expand...

I think what I'm going to do is just wait a few weeks or a month between printing sessions so that I have quite a few to do. Then I'll mix some new chemicals up and pour them away when I'm done :)
 
Steve Smith said:
Have you got the negative holders for 120 film?

If not, I have some I made when I had an LPL 6700 (couldn't afford to buy them) and I'm sure they are the same. If they are of any use, you can have them.



There is no need to be that accurate. If you left it in the developer for another couple of minutes it would be fine. I usually wait until the image has got as dense as I think it is going too then give it another minute or two.

Steve.
Click to expand...

I have three film holders, one is big enough to cover 6x7 and another has sliding masks so I can use it for 35mm or open it up for bigger film (came in really useful printing a roll of 127 I had!) Can't recall what the third one is as I haven't used it yet. Thank you for the offer though :)
 
Carl Hall said:
I think what I'm going to do is just wait a few weeks or a month between printing sessions so that I have quite a few to do. Then I'll mix some new chemicals up and pour them away when I'm done :)
Click to expand...

thats what i normally do with films ,,,,wait until i have ten or twelve and then do them all over a couple of days then throw the developer .
with prints i use the "old" developer ,and see what it looks like ( unless it looks like syrup to start with then i mix up some more )
 
Carl Hall said:
I wasn't aware that developer would only developer the paper to a certain point, I thought it was like film where you had to take it out at the right time so that it didn't go too far. Good to know! Cheers
Click to expand...

It is basically the same as with film - unless you develop for a certain (variable with temperature, film, developer etc.) time you don't get any image; then the image develops (pun not intended) to show more or less full details; and with increasing time (until it reaches maximum) detail in the less exposed parts (shadows in negatives, highlights in prints) doesn't increase much but contrast does (old trick - more development to push the contrast). As does chemical fogging with extended development (greater base density in negatives, veiled highlights in prints).

With film, going to far means to much contrast to easily print, or chemical fogging. Development to "gamma infinity" was/is sometime done to push a film as much as possible.
 
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Gawd, this is 8 threads rolled in to one...lol
 
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I develop for 1:30 sec no matter what., stop for 20 sec if its the indicator stop and fix for 2 minutes.
I store stock developer in tapped wine bags, that way air is expelled from the container as it is emptied and thus slows the effects of oxidisation, you never know how crap that 3l of developer is after you've used 2l out of a 5l container.
Depends on your neg but your test strip intervals seem a bit wide and few, as an average mine are usually between 2 and 5 sec, and at least a dozen or so on 10 x 8.
In fact I've got so much 10x8, a full sheet is a test strip, can't be arsed fannying about cutting them up.

In the beginning, I was happy with any old print, tried to do lots of prints in one session which resulted in so so prints, quantity not quality.
These days I go in to the darkroom expecting to make one nice print from a neg, I may use 10 sheets or more to get there but its worth the effort, if I do any more its a bonus
 
joxby said:
I develop for 1:30 sec no matter what., stop for 20 sec if its the indicator stop and fix for 2 minutes.
I store stock developer in tapped wine bags, that way air is expelled from the container as it is emptied and thus slows the effects of oxidisation, you never know how crap that 3l of developer is after you've used 2l out of a 5l container.
Depends on your neg but your test strip intervals seem a bit wide and few, as an average mine are usually between 2 and 5 sec, and at least a dozen or so on 10 x 8.
In fact I've got so much 10x8, a full sheet is a test strip, can't be arsed fannying about cutting them up.

In the beginning, I was happy with any old print, tried to do lots of prints in one session which resulted in so so prints, quantity not quality.
These days I go in to the darkroom expecting to make one nice print from a neg, I may use 10 sheets or more to get there but its worth the effort, if I do any more its a bonus
Click to expand...

I haven't mixed my new film developer up yet (D76), but I plan to use one litre bottles to store it. I'll fill them up as much as I can and then tighten the bottles up. That way each bottle should stay nice and air tight with a minimum amount of air in it until I need it, and then it'll be gone within a couple of weeks.

My times seem to vary massively at the moment... I printed some 35mm stuff that I shot on an MTL3, and at f/8 they took about 16-20 seconds, but for some 6x7 shots from an RB67 it seems to be 3-4 seconds at f/11. Still getting my head round it all at the moment!

I'm going though that phase at the moment, I print a photo and when I'm reasonably happy with it I look through my folder and see what other photos I want to print. I think I need to slow down a little like you said, and concentrate on getting one photo to the best I can before I try another one. Trouble is they look so much better printed than on screen so I'm too excited to see the rest of them :D
 
Carl Hall said:
I'm going though that phase at the moment, I print a photo and when I'm reasonably happy with it I look through my folder and see what other photos I want to print. I think I need to slow down a little like you said, and concentrate on getting one photo to the best I can before I try another one. Trouble is they look so much better printed than on screen so I'm too excited to see the rest of them :D
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Nah, You've got it all about right, you have to go through the I'm too excited bit for the experience, if nothing else it teaches you what exactly you a looking for in your own prints, you need it for reference.
Test times do vary, the neg, the filtration, the paper and the size of the enlargement, all effect exposure times.
What's going on with your developer ?, might be a typo D76 is for film, but what are your plans for a print workflow ?
 
joxby said:
Nah, You've got it all about right, you have to go through the I'm too excited bit for the experience, if nothing else it teaches you what exactly you a looking for in your own prints, you need it for reference.
Test times do vary, the neg, the filtration, the paper and the size of the enlargement, all effect exposure times.
What's going on with your developer ?, might be a typo D76 is for film, but what are your plans for a print workflow ?
Click to expand...

Sorry I mean my film dev is D76, in currently using Ilford Multigrade Developer for my paper, but that's kept neat in the original bottle and just mixed into another bottle at 1+9 when I want to use it.

Just spent an hour or two in the shed printing a photo. I took your advice and concentrated on printing one and getting it as good as I can.

View attachment 27326

First one is on the left which I thought lacked contrast, so I increased contrast but it was a bit dark. The final one on the right was exposed a few seconds less and is much better. Really pleased with the result!
 
Looks good to me :)

No doubt you've noticed it can save a lot of time and test strips if you choose contrast filtration correctly first time, you have to use the neg and your own judgement for that.
I don't have that problem much, I'm always lookin at grade 5.....170m..../end

joxby said:
I store stock developer in tapped wine bags, that way air is expelled from the container as it is emptied and thus slows the effects of oxidisation, you never know how crap that 3l of developer is after you've used 2l out of a 5l container.
Click to expand...
 
joxby said:
Looks good to me :)

No doubt you've noticed it can save a lot of time and test strips if you choose contrast filtration correctly first time, you have to use the neg and your own judgement for that.
I don't have that problem much, I'm always lookin at grade 5.....170m..../end
Click to expand...

And once you get metering and film development consistent, you should be able to print most things at a middle grade (around 2). Not that I have ever managed it!


Steve.
 
They say the 7700 can't print grade 5, max magenta is between grade 4 and 4.5.
I tested it against a Ilford grade 5 under the lens filter and there's not a lot of difference, grade 4 is plenty contrasty
 
Shoulda said this yesterday but, if anybody needs anything related to film/paper printing and developing/darkroom stuffs......start a wanted thread and spread it about a bit, anyone whos been using film and/or printing for any length of time, can't help but collect tons of stuff that they don't or won't use, it'll likely as not be cheaper and less risky to acquire from members here than ebay.
 
Carl Hall said:
I have three film holders, one is big enough to cover 6x7 and another has sliding masks so I can use it for 35mm or open it up for bigger film (came in really useful printing a roll of 127 I had!) Can't recall what the third one is as I haven't used it yet. Thank you for the offer though :)
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The holders are glassless - 6x7, 6x6, 645, 135, and probably an aps or 110 microfilm.
The universal carrier with sliding masks has glass in it, it was the only one I had, it came with glass on one side so I bought the anti-newton glass piece for the other side which keeps the film totally flat.
Its a useful bit of kit but with the glass in it you end up with 6 surfaces to keep dust free, which is a bit of a mare tbh, I got fed up with cleaning cleaning and cleaning again, to still end up with spotty prints.
I shoot mostly 6x6, so I bought a glassless carrier for it, best thing evaarr :D
 
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