New Nikon Z (zee) 7 Mirrorless.

snerkler said:
My comment was very much tongue in cheek, hence the emojis ;) (y)
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My point is that your ‘joke’ is typical of the internets attitude to Canon mirrorless (I bet you can find at least 5 posts this week mentioning Canon being about to launch a mirrorless Camera).

Meanwhile, Canon sell more mirrorless than anyone else to ‘people’.

I’m not having a dig, I’m trying to put the power of ‘internet opinion’ into context, this forum and others almost ignores cameras that are the market leaders, dismissing them as inferior or flawed or irrelevant.

It’s a serious point, as we’re discussing a new Nikon camera that’s going to ‘fail’ according to the internet, I reckon people will still buy it in droves.

The opposite of the Nikon Df which the internet loved and almost no one bought.
 
It looks like an interesting system, but perhaps not quite there yet if the reviews of the pre-production cameras are anything to go by. The battery life isn't great and the Northrups weren't impressed by the AF. Not having the f/2.8 zooms ready at launch suggests they may be rushing to market a bit prematurely. The 50/0.95 manual focus lens seems a bit exotic to be on the early lens release roadmap when there are plenty of other things missing. You wonder if the 'product differentiation' marketing specialists made them leave out the second card slot so as not to compete with their own high-end SLRs. Nikon still appears to be using the same broken currency converter they used to work out the price of the D850, where £1 = $1 (perhaps they are anticipating the situation after Brexit?). And £600 for a 50/1.8?
 
Phil V said:
My point is that your ‘joke’ is typical of the internets attitude to Canon mirrorless (I bet you can find at least 5 posts this week mentioning Canon being about to launch a mirrorless Camera).

Meanwhile, Canon sell more mirrorless than anyone else to ‘people’.

I’m not having a dig, I’m trying to put the power of ‘internet opinion’ into context, this forum and others almost ignores cameras that are the market leaders, dismissing them as inferior or flawed or irrelevant.

It’s a serious point, as we’re discussing a new Nikon camera that’s going to ‘fail’ according to the internet, I reckon people will still buy it in droves.

The opposite of the Nikon Df which the internet loved and almost no one bought.
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as you know Phil I was with canon M bodies the only thing that stopped me going further was the lens line up , to stay with a long range lens meant a hefty weight penalty ,hence I changed to MFT if at some time in the near future canon come up with a 500mm lightweight lens then it will be jump ship time again . unfortunately age catches up with all of us and the days of lugging large gear about are now gone for me
 
the black fox said:
as you know Phil I was with canon M bodies the only thing that stopped me going further was the lens line up , to stay with a long range lens meant a hefty weight penalty ,hence I changed to MFT if at some time in the near future canon come up with a 500mm lightweight lens then it will be jump ship time again . unfortunately age catches up with all of us and the days of lugging large gear about are now gone for me
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Absolutely, as a ‘serious’ camera, the system isn’t very good for ‘photographers’, for me as a ‘leisure’ system it works fine.

But those facts show exactly what I’m talking about; the vast majority of camera buyers aren’t looking for a lightweight 500mm lens (like you are) or a 1.4 portrait lens (like I’d want) they just buy the camera with a kit zoom, and maybe one other lens, and when they can’t get the shots they want, they accept the limitations because they haven’t bought £000’s of kit and they know they’re not pros.

Likewise they don’t ‘need’ instant AF or 2 card slots, 40 mpix or edge to edge sharpness, they just need ‘a nice camera’.
 
I really think that this 'zee' pronunciation is a step to far and an example of rampantly-creeping Americanisation that we should resist. It goes along with people saying 'awesome' for things that are quite humdrum. They are Nikon ZEDs to me. Just as 'color' is 'colour'. Bloody hell, guys, let's retain some identity and integrity.
 
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droj said:
I really think that this 'zee' pronunciation is a step to far and an example of rampantly-creeping Americanisation that we should resist. It goes along with people saying 'awesome' for things that are quite humdrum. They are Nikon ZEDs to me. Just as 'color' is 'colour'. Bloody hell, guys, let's retain some identity and integrity.
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There was something on the TV or radio I can't remember which... and they said that the way Americans talk is pretty close to how we Brits used to talk and it was us who changed when the upper classes changed to differentiate themselves from us commoners and it caught on and became more common in Britain. The Americans just kept going and didn't catch the new trend.

Of course both UK and US English will have developed from those days but even so to write off Americanisms as being a torturing distortion of our beloved English may be just a little bit inaccurate and it may be a little more accurate to say that both sides of the Atlantic have moved on with us Brits maybe moving a little bit further :D If all that is indeed true.
 
I think the modern world is falling over itself. I see NO forward progress to mirrorless. I have tried it, is was by far and a way WORSE than my SLR, wwhich was 5 or 6 years older.....and the hype that mirrorless was lighter and more compact is a myth too. I got suckered into trying this mirrorless marvel.....the hype told me it was smaller, lighter and produced pictures better than my old trusty steed. THEY LIED. In real world terms I bought a 24-70 and 70-200 with a 1.4x, body and motordrive. I bought a neat little bag to fit it in. It was smaller than the bag I had my old trusty steed in.....so I was onto a winner. Well, actually, no, I wasn't. I gave it a good try, but the results weren't anything like on a par with the SLR and when I got rid of the whole kit and kaboodle in the original boxes I went back to my old trusty steed and bought another D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x conv and a couple of speedlights. Guess what. The D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x and speedlight all fitted in the same bag the mirrorless 'compact', lighter system fitted in....in REAL WORLD terms there isn't any saving. On paper, you can quote all the figures you like at me - I still carry the same bloody bag, and THAT is still the same size, it didn't magically shrink when the mirrorless was put in it, and it hasn't expanded just because the old fashioned D4s and lenses has been placed inside.

Another thing. Just how do 95% of the world view peoples' pictures? What resolution are they viewing those pictures at? Why do we need an 80MB file 9000 pixels wide, when we view it at 800 pixels or something?

The world has gone mad - so mad they can't see the madness for being mad.
 
droj said:
I really think that this 'zee' pronunciation is a step to far and an example of rampantly-creeping Americanisation that we should resist. It goes along with people saying 'awesome' for things that are quite humdrum. They are Nikon ZEDs to me. Just as 'color' is 'colour'. Bloody hell, guys, let's retain some identity and integrity.
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...and mom has crept into the vernacular as well, grrrrr
 
woof woof said:
There was something on the TV or radio I can't remember which... and they said that the way Americans talk is pretty close to how we Brits used to talk and it was us who changed when the upper classes changed to differentiate themselves from us commoners and it caught on and became more common in Britain. The Americans just kept going and didn't catch the new trend.

Of course both UK and US English will have developed from those days but even so to write off Americanisms as being a torturing distortion of our beloved English may be just a little bit inaccurate and it may be a little more accurate to say that both sides of the Atlantic have moved on with us Brits maybe moving a little bit further :D If all that is indeed true.
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It is about time the Americans realised which is the Mother country. It is about time too that we revoked their independence and made them swear allegiance to the Queen. At the same time they can learn to speak and write properly, and damn well drive on the proper side of the road. Ruddy colonial upstarts.
 
metroman said:
...and mom has crept into the vernacular as well, grrrrr
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Oh there are thousands of examples, not just vocabulary but usage too. A modicum of it's alright and natural as language mutates, but we are British, not American, and should hold our own culturally.

The creeping use of the word 'folks' for 'people'. Saying 'for free' for what should be just 'free'. I could go on - and on, and on ...
 
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Yes but often what happens with empires is that the central power moves to a post empire state and moves on in many ways whilst the extreme outposts remain the more traditional last bastions of imperialism and the old traditional ways... As per the USA and it's traditional use of English whilst we Brits have bastardised it.

Driving on the wrong side of the road is wrong. For a greater percentage of the population for a whole host of reasons driving whilst sitting on the right, keeping your right hand on the wheel and looking out of the car at the mirror on the right is safer and this shows up in the stats.

Anyway. I digress. Sorry for the intrusion :D
 
From watching the reviews on YouTube it seems to me that Nikon are just trying to keep there loyal customers happy. As a lot of people have expensive glass just like Canon users. I use a mc-11 adapter on my Sony mirrorless to take my Canon L and sigma glass. I am currently saving up to buy a Sony A7iii and a native FF e mount lens. Now when Canon release their FF mirrorless I am sure I will look into it keenly as an alternative to A7iii
Like Nikon Canon will have to ensure that owning EF mount glass works flawlessly on the new mirrorless, which is what Nikon should have done with no limitations for owning F glass. The short fall in F glass performance on the Z body could be because of the flange size difference and I suspect Canon should not have the same limitation problem !

To me the glass is the key to the success of the Nikon Z. As not everyone has the funds to 're invest in new native glass.
If Sony produced a EF to E mount adapter that worked flawlessly with Canon glass. Then more Canon users would have switched a long time ago, me included ...
 
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droj said:
I really think that this 'zee' pronunciation is a step to far and an example of rampantly-creeping Americanisation that we should resist. It goes along with people saying 'awesome' for things that are quite humdrum. They are Nikon ZEDs to me. Just as 'color' is 'colour'. Bloody hell, guys, let's retain some identity and integrity.
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Here here :D
 
Lensflare said:
I think the modern world is falling over itself. I see NO forward progress to mirrorless. I have tried it, is was by far and a way WORSE than my SLR, wwhich was 5 or 6 years older.....and the hype that mirrorless was lighter and more compact is a myth too. I got suckered into trying this mirrorless marvel.....the hype told me it was smaller, lighter and produced pictures better than my old trusty steed. THEY LIED. In real world terms I bought a 24-70 and 70-200 with a 1.4x, body and motordrive. I bought a neat little bag to fit it in. It was smaller than the bag I had my old trusty steed in.....so I was onto a winner. Well, actually, no, I wasn't. I gave it a good try, but the results weren't anything like on a par with the SLR and when I got rid of the whole kit and kaboodle in the original boxes I went back to my old trusty steed and bought another D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x conv and a couple of speedlights. Guess what. The D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x and speedlight all fitted in the same bag the mirrorless 'compact', lighter system fitted in....in REAL WORLD terms there isn't any saving. On paper, you can quote all the figures you like at me - I still carry the same bloody bag, and THAT is still the same size, it didn't magically shrink when the mirrorless was put in it, and it hasn't expanded just because the old fashioned D4s and lenses has been placed inside.
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Was this the camera that by your own admission didn't know how to work, If it is how can you objectively comment on its output?
 
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Lensflare said:
I think the modern world is falling over itself. I see NO forward progress to mirrorless. I have tried it, is was by far and a way WORSE than my SLR, wwhich was 5 or 6 years older.....and the hype that mirrorless was lighter and more compact is a myth too. I got suckered into trying this mirrorless marvel.....the hype told me it was smaller, lighter and produced pictures better than my old trusty steed. THEY LIED. In real world terms I bought a 24-70 and 70-200 with a 1.4x, body and motordrive. I bought a neat little bag to fit it in. It was smaller than the bag I had my old trusty steed in.....so I was onto a winner. Well, actually, no, I wasn't. I gave it a good try, but the results weren't anything like on a par with the SLR and when I got rid of the whole kit and kaboodle in the original boxes I went back to my old trusty steed and bought another D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x conv and a couple of speedlights. Guess what. The D4s, 24-70, 70-200, 1.4x and speedlight all fitted in the same bag the mirrorless 'compact', lighter system fitted in....in REAL WORLD terms there isn't any saving. On paper, you can quote all the figures you like at me - I still carry the same bloody bag, and THAT is still the same size, it didn't magically shrink when the mirrorless was put in it, and it hasn't expanded just because the old fashioned D4s and lenses has been placed inside.
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I agree - I see mirrorless as silly little cameras and I haven't encountered one yet that will change my view on that

Lensflare said:
Another thing. Just how do 95% of the world view peoples' pictures? What resolution are they viewing those pictures at? Why do we need an 80MB file 9000 pixels wide, when we view it at 800 pixels or something?

The world has gone mad - so mad they can't see the madness for being mad.
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Big prints and screen res's will only get bigger - why not have the res - storage has never been cheaper.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Was this the camera that by your own admission didn't know how to work, If it is how can you objectively comment on its output?
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Yes, but that doesn't alter it's dimensions - see my commnt regards sizing. I don't need to know how to work it to compare size and weight. My computer skills and knowledge are very restricted, but I have been a full time professional photographer for nearly 40 years. So my comments are worthless, best you ignore them.
 
Lensflare said:
Yes, but that doesn't alter it's dimensions - see my commnt regards sizing. I don't need to know how to work it to compare size and weight. My computer skills and knowledge are very restricted, but I have been a full time professional photographer for nearly 40 years. So my comments are worthless, best you ignore them.
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You specifically stated "produced pictures better than my old trusty steed. THEY LIED" also "I gave it a good try, but the results weren't anything like on a par with the SLR"

How could you possibly tell if you didn't know how to use it?
 
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woof woof said:
whilst the extreme outposts remain the more traditional last bastions of imperialism and the old traditional ways...
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1. Britishness isn't extreme, it's common sense (as we know it). We ought to be able to celebrate our own culture (though it is a mutable entity).
2. The older cultures of Europe versus the brash and often outlandish US model can act as a reservoir of grounded meaningfulness - perhaps a vital drag anchor to the wayward extremes.

The US is a place of self-reinvention and selling where all that talks is money - you can see why the Murdoch media empire has done so well there and why Trump is in.
 
droj said:
The creeping use of the word 'folks' for 'people'. Saying 'for free' for what should be just 'free'. I could go on - and on, and on ...
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'Folk', meaning 'people', goes back to the earliest English ('people' is a later borrowing from French). The 'folks' plural form, used in the same sense, is older than the US by several centuries.
 
Retune said:
It looks like an interesting system, but perhaps not quite there yet if the reviews of the pre-production cameras are anything to go by. The battery life isn't great and the Northrups weren't impressed by the AF. Not having the f/2.8 zooms ready at launch suggests they may be rushing to market a bit prematurely. The 50/0.95 manual focus lens seems a bit exotic to be on the early lens release roadmap when there are plenty of other things missing. You wonder if the 'product differentiation' marketing specialists made them leave out the second card slot so as not to compete with their own high-end SLRs. Nikon still appears to be using the same broken currency converter they used to work out the price of the D850, where £1 = $1 (perhaps they are anticipating the situation after Brexit?). And £600 for a 50/1.8?
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Did Sony have f2.8's on launch?

£600 for the 50mm f1.8 is a joke, especially when the f-mount is £200.
 
snerkler said:
Did Sony have f2.8's on launch?
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No idea, but they do now, and they are the established competition. Nikon are asking a lot of money for this camera, especially in the UK, so providing bread and butter pro lenses as soon as possible is going to be pretty important for the new system to be taken seriously. The Z7 will be quite a hard sell against something like the D850, which costs about the same. This may change as the system expands and they improve the basics like AF and battery life. Having used an X100T for a couple of years, I can appreciate the benefits of an EVF (especially getting instant feedback on exposure adjustments), but I wouldn't want to spend this sort of money on a system camera if (e.g.) the AF doesn't work as well as Sony's mirrorless system, let alone Nikon's existing SLRs (the Northrups suggest the AF is currently on a par with previous generation Fuji and Sony cameras from around 3 years ago). Of course we'll have to wait and see if the production models (or firmware updates) do better than the first look reviews suggest. If not, the first generation Nikon mirrorless may be one to skip.
 
Retune said:
No idea, but they do now, and they are the established competition. Nikon are asking a lot of money for this camera, especially in the UK, so providing bread and butter pro lenses as soon as possible is going to be pretty important for the new system to be taken seriously. The Z7 will be quite a hard sell against something like the D850, which costs about the same. This may change as the system expands and they improve the basics like AF and battery life. .
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There are three native lenses for the new available, but 90 F mount lenses available via the adapter. So all the bread and butter lenses will be accessible. How well the F mount lenses work we'll find out over the coming weeks, but that is more lenses from the manufacturer for their lens from launch. The benefit of this Nikon adapter is that it made by the manufacturer, for their lenses to work with their lenses, not back engineered by a third party company.

Sony still do not have that many lens available for their cameras. Yes, you could use adapters and have other lenses available too for the Sony's, but at some point you will probably have access to those lenses too with the Nikon's via adapters.

I agree the cameras, and the native lenses, are expensive, but give Nikon credit where it is due, for releasing cameras with a new mount, having the adapter available at launch to allow full use of 90 lenses, and limited use of a couple of hundred more is brilliant for Nikon owners/users. If, the adapter works well course. But then do landscape photographers need the AF to be perfect to carry on using their F mount lenses? ;) When I am on a tripod I am using Liveview and sometime manual focus.
 
Retune said:
No idea, but they do now, and they are the established competition. Nikon are asking a lot of money for this camera, especially in the UK, so providing bread and butter pro lenses as soon as possible is going to be pretty important for the new system to be taken seriously. The Z7 will be quite a hard sell against something like the D850, which costs about the same. This may change as the system expands and they improve the basics like AF and battery life. Having used an X100T for a couple of years, I can appreciate the benefits of an EVF (especially getting instant feedback on exposure adjustments), but I wouldn't want to spend this sort of money on a system camera if (e.g.) the AF doesn't work as well as Sony's mirrorless system, let alone Nikon's existing SLRs (the Northrups suggest the AF is currently on a par with previous generation Fuji and Sony cameras from around 3 years ago). Of course we'll have to wait and see if the production models (or firmware updates) do better than the first look reviews suggest. If not, the first generation Nikon mirrorless may be one to skip.
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These cameras will sell, and will likely sell well and Nikon will give themselves a big pat on the back. However, for the life of me I can’t work out why people would buy these, especially when there’s cheaper alternatives offering better features and better performance. Some folk obviously don’t care about getting a good bang for buck.

F2.8 lenses are to follow but it’s of no surprise to me they’re not the first releases. The 24-70mm f4 is more suited to the whole premise of mirrorless being a smaller system. The majority of sales will be from wealthy hobbyists, I can’t honestly see a large percentage of pros buying these.
 
I'm sure the adapter will be very useful to existing Nikon users, though it adds bulk and weight to the camera, and a purchaser would have to have a compelling reason to buy a Z7 body to replace or supplement the SLR(s) they must already have, especially when they are paying D850 prices. I don't think many other people will be terribly enthusiastic about buying F-mount lenses as stopgaps just to use on the adapter, when hopefully something that is designed specifically for their camera will be produced in due course. There's a lot of functional overlap in that list of 90 compatible lenses - making a dozen or so carefully chosen Z mount lenses available (including the fast zooms) might make the system more attractive to many potential purchasers than backwards compatibiity. The current roadmap gets us most of the way there by 2021, though it's notably lacking anything longer than 200mm (and making two superfast 5x mm lenses rather than a f/1.4 seems an odd decision).

I agree that amateurs will probably account for the majority of sales, though I suspect that's also true for the 'pro' dSLRs! That Nikon has the big f/2.8 zooms on its roadmap suggests they aren't just thinking about the compact system market, but are perhaps taking the first steps towards building a system that may one day occupy the niche of the F mount SLRs.
 
snerkler said:
Did Sony have f2.8's on launch?

£600 for the 50mm f1.8 is a joke, especially when the f-mount is £200.
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Sony "could get away" with that and more since the where pioneers in FF mirrorless. They offered something new a different from what we were used to with some unique selling points. Now as second in the market Nikon don't
 
soeren said:
Sony "could get away" with that and more since the where pioneers in FF mirrorless. They offered something new a different from what we were used to with some unique selling points. Now as second in the market Nikon don't
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Yeah, I take your point, but it does appear to me that Nikon have rushed this system out since deciding they were going to do this and as such they only have 3 lenses and I can see why the 24-70mm f4 was developed before the f2.8. But as I say, imo they've rushed it, they've brought out 2 bodies that are 3 years behind the competition, and a poor number of lenses to start. IMO they'd have been better waiting another 6-12months, developing the body more to get it right and not half baked, and also maybe another 3 or 4 lenses. But what do I know ;)
 
snerkler said:
Yeah, I take your point, but it does appear to me that Nikon have rushed this system out since deciding they were going to do this and as such they only have 3 lenses and I can see why the 24-70mm f4 was developed before the f2.8. But as I say, imo they've rushed it, they've brought out 2 bodies that are 3 years behind the competition, and a poor number of lenses to start. IMO they'd have been better waiting another 6-12months, developing the body more to get it right and not half baked, and also maybe another 3 or 4 lenses. But what do I know ;)
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How many lenses did you expect on release? :thinking:
 
jonneymendoza said:
7 at least to compete with Sony
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Producing lenses is a bit harder than buying lenses you know! ;)

How many lenses did Sony start with with the first a7? There is only so much production capacity they have, they are not a huge company, and the also have to produce F mount lenses at the same time, which Sony don't have to. They have three lenses plus whatever of the 90 fully compatible lenses you may own via the adapter. ;) And for once they have given a roadmap for their (mirrorless) lenses.
 
Phil V said:
Absolutely, as a ‘serious’ camera, the system isn’t very good for ‘photographers’, for me as a ‘leisure’ system it works fine.

But those facts show exactly what I’m talking about; the vast majority of camera buyers aren’t looking for a lightweight 500mm lens (like you are) or a 1.4 portrait lens (like I’d want) they just buy the camera with a kit zoom, and maybe one other lens, and when they can’t get the shots they want, they accept the limitations because they haven’t bought £000’s of kit and they know they’re not pros.

Likewise they don’t ‘need’ instant AF or 2 card slots, 40 mpix or edge to edge sharpness, they just need ‘a nice camera’.
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Hence I bought the very nice M100 ,nice AF and touch screen with very nice IQ
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Hence I bought the very nice M100 ,nice AF and touch screen with very nice IQ
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Does the lack of hot shoe ever bother you? I'm still interested in that cam, i seem to be interested in a lot lately, just fancy a change up soon
 
Not me in the slightest,if the in camera flash isn’t enough then it wouldn’t bother me,might others but I do really enjoy using this camera probably
more than any other .its not for everybody of course as for many lack of evf is a big no no,again doesn’t bother me.
I’m not sure if it’s a camera for you but who knows
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Not me in the slightest,if the in camera flash isn’t enough then it wouldn’t bother me,might others but I do really enjoy using this camera probably
more than any other .its not for everybody of course as for many lack of evf is a big no no,again doesn’t bother me.
I’m not sure if it’s a camera for you but who knows
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I mostly use OCF for macro, it's kind of essential for that, otherwise it probably wouldn't bother me. This is why I'm looking to 2 bodies, say an 80D and an M100, I think i'd really like that combination. Lack of evf is no problem, the LCD on these mirrorless cameras is just as useful
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
I was surprised how much I enjoy using the lcd for composing
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I'll be honest, I use the LCD just as much, if not more on my G80. It's bright and clear without lag, even in the brightest sunshine it's very view-able. I prefer to use the LCD especially for macro, as you're often crouching down and using the evf is just plain awkward. I use it often for casual family shots too. The only time I feel i need the evf is when I'm shooting more 'serious' shots, I do the odd family portrait/group sessions and I'll want the framing perfect, less cropping in post. And sometimes when the sun is really bright it's less distracting to use the evf. but it's not a must like I used to find more so with dslr, because live view on the LCD mostly sucked on those. I love that the touch screen is so fluid with these modern cameras, they're just as responsive as smart phones. I have been really impressed with that on the G80, it'll be hard to ever change to a camera without
 
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