New Covid Contact Tracing App

gilbouk

gilbouk

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Is gps accurate and reliable enough? For example somebody who has it is likely to visit a supermarket at some point before they take ill. So everybody who visited at the same time has to self isolate including all staff. Won’t everybody end up having to self isolate very quickly due to the vagueness of the data? What about all the folk driving past too? Will the app tell them to self isolate.
 
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I think it works diferently. I think everyone needs bluetooth switched on on their phones. If you come into contact with another 'listening' phone for 15 minutes or more then it is remembered. If that person then reports symptoms then you are notified to isolate as well.

The app also needs the first part of your postcode to be able to track potential transmission across the country to locate hot spots. I don't think it uses GPS at all.
 
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Most supermarkets and factories will have to change the rules about staff carrying a phone with them while working
 
drounding said:
I think it works diferently. I think everyone needs bluetooth switched on on their phones. If you come into contact with another 'listening' phone for 15 minutes or more then it is remembered. If that person then reports symptoms then you are notified to isolate as well.

The app also needs the first part of your postcode to be able to track potential transmission across the country to locate hot spots. I don't think it uses GPS at all.
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Ahhh that’s very clever
 
drounding said:
I think it works diferently. I think everyone needs bluetooth switched on on their phones. If you come into contact with another 'listening' phone for 15 minutes or more then it is remembered. If that person then reports symptoms then you are notified to isolate as well.

The app also needs the first part of your postcode to be able to track potential transmission across the country to locate hot spots. I don't think it uses GPS at all.
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I always have Bluetooth turned off, as it always drains my battery.


PS

Did you ever get the dial fixed, on your PowerShot ?
 
It's funny, just a week or so ago there was an article saying why this app wouldn't work (mostly because there are fewer of the type of Smartphones it needs than the saturation rate you need to reach to make it work). And now all of a sudden people in the Isle of Wight are being encouraged to download it immediately.

Meanwhile in Israel apparently the government just asked "one of their secret services" to do the monitoring and it was turned on overnight. And China just said "yah we track everybody anyway".

I mean anything that convinces the government that the rest of the UK is different from London would be a good thing. But I wonder if this is it.
 
JonathanRyan said:
It's funny, just a week or so ago there was an article saying why this app wouldn't work
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It's not an all-or-nothing thing (which is a concept the average journo just doesn't seem to be able to cope with). The more users who have the app the better but of course it works with a lower take up rate, it's just that fewer contacts will be recorded and hence the tracking will be less effective.
 
Covid Lookout APP ( CLAPP )

How near do you need to be to a Covid registered person with a smart phone with the App installed in order to receive an alert.
 
arclight said:
Covid Lookout APP ( CLAPP )

How near do you need to be to a Covid registered person with a smart phone with the App installed in order to receive an alert.
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Low Energy bluetooth (BLE) as a theoretical range of around 100m but that is unlikely under normal conditions, my smart watch gets notifications when my phone is in another room so at least 5-10m in normal circumstances.

However the notifications system is cleverer than that, firstly the data exchanged between your phone and another person's phone includes signal strength and time. When someone notifies via the App that they have symptoms. a clinical algorithm looks at signal strength and time data and decides if a contact is high risk. If you are high risk it sends you a notification. This is the argument for using a centralised app rather than a decentralised one, the decentralised approach is fairly dumb it just notifies everyone, the centralised approach allows the risk assessment to be done on the central server.
 
sirch said:
Low Energy bluetooth (BLE) as a theoretical range of around 100m but that is unlikely under normal conditions, my smart watch gets notifications when my phone is in another room so at least 5-10m in normal circumstances.

However the notifications system is cleverer than that, firstly the data exchanged between your phone and another person's phone includes signal strength and time. When someone notifies via the App that they have symptoms. a clinical algorithm looks at signal strength and time data and decides if a contact is high risk. If you are high risk it sends you a notification. This is the argument for using a centralised app rather than a decentralised one, the decentralised approach is fairly dumb it just notifies everyone, the centralised approach allows the risk assessment to be done on the central server.
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Super, thanks for that. I sort of guessed it would be around 10 metres. Outdoors, with unobstructed line of sight radio link, 100 metres range could mean picking up a lot of contacts and I suppose that's where the signal strength algorithms will filter out unnecessary alerts. Very clever.
 
sirch said:
It's not an all-or-nothing thing (which is a concept the average journo just doesn't seem to be able to cope with). The more users who have the app the better but of course it works with a lower take up rate, it's just that fewer contacts will be recorded and hence the tracking will be less effective.
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Yes, a smaller number of contacts will work. If we are the only 2 people with a phone that can make this work then it's still useful. But I believe the idea is to make this "mandatory" as a preface to ending lockdown. Unless you have significant uptake then it seems like there would be a risk of false confidence. "My super smart phone didn't alert me so I'm safe" when it actually means you didn't meet anybody with a phone as fancy as yours.
 
They can't make it mandatory, there are too many issues with that and they will just look petulant if they adopt the line "you can come out of lock-down when you download the app". This isn't China.

Once someone has had a contact, had to isolate for a few days until they could get a test and then given a load of personal info to a numpty in a contact tracing call centre, I think most people will be thinking "sod that" and uninstalling the app. No app, no contacts, no alerts, tests, contact tracing etc. :)
 
In Korea, Taiwan etc you don’t even need an app…you get a text alert on your phone if there is someone contracted Covid-19 near you. So they know where you live anyway, they know where the person caught it has been with their GPS history and they cross reference it with your GPS history.

It’s not about being China, it’s simply whether the government wants to utilise the tools they have at their disposal. This app…seems like some form of consent but in reality, I think they could just go ahead and do it.
 
Well of course the government know where you live. Those governments get an infected person's phone and download the data after the person has caught the disease and reported it (assuming that had location data turned on on their phone). The app aims to act a bit quicker and be more specific than that, GPS does not, for example give an indication of for how long someone was close to another person.

The point about China was regarding making the app mandatory
 
And might not work well with Apple devices or recent Android versions (later than 8) : ElReg article

TL;DR:
"Despite what the NCSC has continued to imply, the app will not, as it stands, work all the time on iOS nor Android since version 8. The operating systems won't allow the tracing application to broadcast its ID via Bluetooth to surrounding devices when it's running in the background and not in active use. Apple's iOS forbids it, and newer Google Android versions limit it to a few minutes after the app falls into the background.

That means that unless people have the NHS app running in the foreground and their phones awake most of the time, the fundamental principle underpinning the entire system – that phones detect each other – won't work."
 
As an island resident, I will be expected to run this application. I've been self-isolating as I'm on the vulnerable list and haven't been more than half a mile from my house or closer than twenty feet to anyone for more than eight weeks now, so I can't see how my data will help, but still feel it is my duty to do whatever I can to help in some small way.

The privacy/security issue is nonsense because if you have a smartphone (or any GPS enabled phone) they can already track you if they want to anyway. FYI Google and Apple track your movements for data mining by default.

Here's what the local rag has to say: https://www.islandecho.co.uk/contact-tracing-app-to-be-trialed-on-the-isle-of-wight-within-days/
 
sirch said:
They can't make it mandatory, there are too many issues with that and they will just look petulant if they adopt the line "you can come out of lock-down when you download the app". This isn't China.
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And there's one big problem.

As I said in another thread I just don't understand this paranoid world view and I just don't know who people who object to the app think is watching them and why.

And to equate being told to use an app that could save lives in the UK to China just beggers belief. You do know what's gone on in China in recent years? You do have some connection with reality?

Balanced against possibly saving peoples lives and ending this faster these imagined privacy issue just seem ridiculous and bordering on foil hat conspiracy madness to me. I honestly just do not understand this attitude, it's like some people are living on one of those paranoid anti government gun toting compounds in the USA. The selfishness, arrogance and apparent stupidity of the public is one thing I'll remember from all this. I just didn't expect the British to be like this but in these paranoid knee jerk social media days I suppose this is just how it is. This is the new reality.
 
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I think western democracies survive because of the tension between competing views, if those different views stop being expressed then we might head towards dictatorship, so to a large extent people might be expressing such views as a means of curbing the worst excesses of those in power rather than from some sort of paranoia.
 
woof woof said:
As I said in another thread I just don't understand this paranoid world view and I just don't know who people who object to the app think is watching them and why.
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Especially considering the fact that most people use Facebook (which mines every bit of information possible from its users). This is in addition to them VOLUNTARILY posting as much as they possibly can about their daily lives including photos of what food they eat. :banghead:
 
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sirch said:
I think western democracies survive because of the tension between competing views, if those different views stop being expressed then we might head towards dictatorship, so to a large extent people might be expressing such views as a means of curbing the worst excesses of those in power rather than from some sort of paranoia.
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Yes but when people object to a potentially life saving c19 emergency shortening app I think at least asking why is justified.

And you really think that this app is a step along the road to dictatorship in the UK? Really?? Really honestly truly?

Sorry if you're not one of those objecting on the grounds of infringements of civil liberties but if anyone reading this is can they please answer these simple questions...

- Who do you think will be looking at your movements and why does this concern you?

- In the context of c19, seeking to limit the deaths and the lasting health effects and seeking to end all this sooner do you think your concerns should outweigh the potential benefits of the app?
 
Sky said:
Especially considering the fact that most people use Facebook (which mines every bit of information possible from its users). This is in addition to them VOLUNTARILY posting as much as they possibly can about their daily lives including photos of what food they eat. :banghead:
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I think twitter and facebook and other social madia platforms may be a part of the problem. We saw during Brexit (sorry for bringing that up....) and during the last election and we've also seen in the USA too that the views expressed don't seem to necessarily reflect the wider public or even reality (MMR vaccine scare anyone?) It seems that there are bubbles on these platforms in which one view becomes the norm to the point that those in the bubble believe their view/worldview is correct, the only one and shared by everyone. Anyone who doesn't share that view must be torn down and destroyed. This can lead to anger and disbelief when faced with a different view or even, fact.

I do wonder if the great infringement of civil liberties and if it comes we'll be a dictatorship view is founded in any defendable reality or just a paranoid view from a bubble on facebook (or other.)
 
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We need to be extremely careful with wide spread, rushed changes like this. Following "9-11" the government brought in sweeping anti terrorist measures which were subsequently used for all kinds of non-terrorist activity including at least one council using those powers to spy on people over dog-fouling.

It is right to keep the pressure on the goverment, especially the lying money grabbers in this governement becuase the tempation for them to sell this data to the highest bidder after the pandemic settles down will be very high. It's not necessarily about individual tracking but when linked up with other data it will be used to sell advertising, rig elections, lobby governement and all kinds of very subtle but very pernicious things that will affect and change our lives.
 
woof woof said:
Who do you think will be looking at your movements and why does this concern you?
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That isn't my concern. Whenever I turn on bluetooth I only get a list of paired devices that I have allowed to connect and get info
I really do not want every other bluetooth phone to be able to connect to mine, ok it's not a huge problems as I don't use my phone for anything other then calls, texts, maps
I don't know much about bluetooth and how it works, rarely have it turned on, but I do know that if I do want to share with someone else it asks me.
A lot of people use their phones for everything so if you have bluetooth open to all that leaves it open to hackers,
Perhaps someone who understands more could emlighten me if I'm wrong
 
sirch said:
We need to be extremely careful with wide spread, rushed changes like this. Following "9-11" the government brought in sweeping anti terrorist measures which were subsequently used for all kinds of non-terrorist activity including at least one council using those powers to spy on people over dog-fouling.

It is right to keep the pressure on the goverment, especially the lying money grabbers in this governement becuase the tempation for them to sell this data to the highest bidder after the pandemic settles down will be very high. It's not necessarily about individual tracking but when linked up with other data it will be used to sell advertising, rig elections, lobby governement and all kinds of very subtle but very pernicious things that will affect and change our lives.
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If you've seen my questions above maybe you'll accept that you haven't answered them here.

I see the potential for abuse in some bizarre dystopian Big Brother future world, zombies and all, but I don't see it as a real world potential here and now in the UK and certainly not when balanced against the possible benefits the app may bring.

People have been shouting about South Korea and other places which have done exactly this so I'd have thought this app would be very popular, and yet the conspiracy theories come forward.

If you or anyone else could just answer a direct question from me.

Who do you think in government or what security service do you think cares what you do (apart from c19 related) and what do you think could happen to you if the app comes into use.

Because I just don't see what's here to cause the panic and Big Brother fears when you consider what detail social media and even the shops we use have on us already especially as the app wont name you, afaik you'll just be a contact and after all this you can presumably delete it, burn your phone and move on safe in the knowledge that the MiB can't find you anymore.
 
Gremlin said:
That isn't my concern. Whenever I turn on bluetooth I only get a list of paired devices that I have allowed to connect and get info
I really do not want every other bluetooth phone to be able to connect to mine, ok it's not a huge problems as I don't use my phone for anything other then calls, texts, maps
I don't know much about bluetooth and how it works, rarely have it turned on, but I do know that if I do want to share with someone else it asks me.
A lot of people use their phones for everything so if you have bluetooth open to all that leaves it open to hackers,
Perhaps someone who understands more could emlighten me if I'm wrong
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You're not worried about the MiB?

I thought I was alone :D

I don't know the implications of bluetooth either, does anyone know what the negative implications could be?

Could the app include any anti malware/criminal measures?
 
Gremlin said:
I don't know much about bluetooth and how it works, rarely have it turned on, but I do know that if I do want to share with someone else it asks me.
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Apple have actually changed the iOS operating system to allow bluetooth to be accessed whilst an app is in the background. Previously they did not allow this to prevent shops and advertisers using bluetooth for tracking purposes. Are they going to disable it again after the pandemic? who knows?
 
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woof woof said:
If you've seen my questions above maybe you'll accept that you haven't answered them here.
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I haven't because I don't accept your premise and I don't think you are accepting the premise of my argument either. In a nutshell this whole mobile comms thing is very new (I'm not talking pandemic, I'm talking ubiquitous comms, mobile phones, bluetooth, etc.) in governance terms and we need to keep up the pressure on the government so that they understand what won't be acceptable after this unprecedented situation is over.
 
Thailand have had an app like this for a while now, it's mandatory, also curfew from 10pm - 4am plus alcohol sales are banned till further notice. Your temperature is taken before entering any public building and you may not enter any shop without a face mask. Last time I looked their Covid 19 death count was about 50.

Just saying.
 
sirch said:
I haven't because I don't accept your premise and I don't think you are accepting the premise of my argument either. In a nutshell this whole mobile comms thing is very new (I'm not talking pandemic, I'm talking ubiquitous comms, mobile phones, bluetooth, etc.) in governance terms and we need to keep up the pressure on the government so that they understand what won't be acceptable after this unprecedented situation is over.
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You seem to have explained your views a little more but they're just not ones I see as real world concerns. Not the civil rights worries at least. Blue tooth and whatever criminal activity which may hijack it is another issue. I know mobile tech is relatively new but the civil rights aspect has been brought up multiple times and I personally think it's unfounded.

Yes in some alternative reality or in somewhere like North Korea we'd be worried but at the moment I just don't believe that the government we have today or any we've had in my lifetime would use the c19 app for any real and damaging nefarious purpose. I think it is what it is. I think it's an attempt to provide notification of possible exposure and an attempt to limit c19.

I just don't see the civil rights fears especially in the context of trying to save lives and get back to whatever normal is.
 
sirch said:
Apple have actually changed the iOS operating system to allow bluetooth to be accessed whilst an app is in the background.
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Thanks for that, but I use android, and don't have bluetooth on most of the time, occasionally if I'm in the car
and might need to use the phone for a meeting or similar
 
Gremlin said:
Thanks for that, but I use android, and don't have bluetooth on most of the time, occasionally if I'm in the car
and might need to use the phone for a meeting or similar
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Android already allowed Bluetooth in the background...
 
woof woof said:
As I said in another thread I just don't understand this paranoid world view and I just don't know who people who object to the app think is watching them and why.
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I think the paranoid view comes because data is valuable, and there's never been a data missuse scandal in the UK (honest). Before you decide that's a conspiracy nut talking its not a view I agree with, and I already have the Aussie version of the app installed.

What I fail to understand is why this isn't out there already. Numerous countries are already using the app in one form of another and applications such as Tile have long used bluetooth tracking.
 
I have it installed, it doesn't use GPS and it works anonymously through Bluetooth.

It records how far away others running the app are and for how long. This data is stored on my phone and if I report that I have symptoms, an anonymous message will be sent to those people. The message will offer the recipients advice on what to do next.

In addition, the app can arrange for me to have a swab test for the virus. This will be sent to my home.
 
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