Never mind the YN560, how about...........

Kaouthia said:
That's very odd. I do think it might be a Canon thing though.

As I said, never seen that issue with any Nikon body, and I don't know anybody else that has either, but I hear about it all the time with Canon bodies - sometimes it'll synch to 1/200, with people recommending 1/125-1/160th, sometimes you have to be as slow as 1/60. All seems very dodgy to me.
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I don't think it's a Canon thing John, though I guess the exact x-sync timing and tolerances may well vary very slightly between makes.

My Canon 5D2 will sync at 1/200sec (stated speed) with a Speedlite in E-TTL (any mode) and also with studio flash using an IR trigger or hard wire.

But do it with the RF-602 and I get a (very) narrow black band at the bottom, which is gone at 1/160sec. My 40D was similar, nominal 1/250sec dropped down to 1/200sec with the RF-602.

So whatever the x-sync speed, the RF-602 needs a fractional reduction to clear. That's the delay I'm talking about; it's very slight but it's there and can be significant when syncing with daylight where it translates through to, effectively, a third of a stop extra flash output. I didn't notice any delay when I had Pocket Wizard Plus triggers.
 
When I say maybe it's a Canon thing, I mean maybe it's a timing thing on Canon bodies.

Regardless of whether I've got it on the hotshoe or the sync cable, on any Nikon body it's never been an issue with the RF-602s. But we can also select front or rear curtain sync from within the body itself too with any flash system, so perhaps it's just a function of the system that allows the RF-602s to sync at full speed as a happy accident.

Has it made a difference for you if you've gone from the Sync port on your 5DMk2 to the Tx's sync port instead of putting it on the hotshoe?
 
Kaouthia said:
When I say maybe it's a Canon thing, I mean maybe it's a timing thing on Canon bodies.

Regardless of whether I've got it on the hotshoe or the sync cable, on any Nikon body it's never been an issue with the RF-602s. But we can also select front or rear curtain sync from within the body itself too with any flash system, so perhaps it's just a function of the system that allows the RF-602s to sync at full speed as a happy accident.

Has it made a difference for you if you've gone from the Sync port on your 5DMk2 to the Tx's sync port instead of putting it on the hotshoe?
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No.

I think there is a difference between Nikon and Canon x-sync, at least in the way it's triggered. Canon uses both the cental pin and one/some of the E-TTL contacts, Nikon only the central pin I believe. I'm not sure why; perhaps it's a patent thing.

Maybe this is what's affecting the timing with your Nikon, though TBH I wasn't aware that Nikon could get away with the nominal max x-sync speed without any adjustment with an RF-602 (or most other radio triggers) whereas Canon needs to go a notch slower. It could be sorted with different timing options on the camera, like we used to have on some cameras - x-sync, m-sync (for magnesium bulbs) and FP-sync (for focal plane bulbs). User-adjustable timing would be nice :)

Either way, it's not what I'm talking about. All radio triggers have an inevitable delay while they process the signals. With PWs it's negligible, with cheapo ebay triggers on low batteries, it's massive!
 
I use the GP1000mAh AAA batteries in mine. Take no time at all to charge up, so I just charge them for all my receivers the night before if I know I'm going to be using them, and carry a few spare pairs with me.

I need to find some decent rechargeable replacements for the transmitters though (if they exist).
 
HoppyUK said:
The 2.4Ghz frequency that Radio Popper use (and the RF-602) seems better but I'm not sure about international legal standards there. Eg, there is no European version of the Radio Popper.
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RadioPopper use ~900MHz, not 2.4GHz. It is not legal for use in Europe. This is one of the reasons they don't have a CE version yet.

2.4GHz is a "licence-free" international standard used in RF-602s, Skyports, CyberSyncs, Profoto Air, FlashWave IIIs, Pixel triggers and Seculine Twinlinks (as well as Wi-Fi).

If the the YN460-TX and RX (and any future iterations of the system) use 2.4GHz as indicated, you will be able to use it worldwide.
 
Selbosh said:
RadioPopper use ~900MHz, not 2.4GHz. It is not legal for use in Europe. This is one of the reasons they don't have a CE version yet.

2.4GHz is a "licence-free" international standard used in RF-602s, Skyports, CyberSyncs, Profoto Air, FlashWave IIIs, Pixel triggers and Seculine Twinlinks (as well as Wi-Fi).

If the the YN460-TX and RX (and any future iterations of the system) use 2.4GHz as indicated, you will be able to use it worldwide.
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Apologies. Thank you for that correction Selbosh. I knew it was higher than PW and just assumed without checking it was 2.4GHz like almost everybody else.

It begs the question of why though. Do you know the pros and cons of the various frequencies?

Thanks.
 
I have a sneaky suspicion canon are just pikeys with their stated times. And that there isn't as much slack (for the tx/rx delay) as nikon build in I mean if this was a perfect world the 5d2 would sync a 1/320 like the 1d but :(
 
david1701 said:
I have a sneaky suspicion canon are just pikeys with their stated times. And that there isn't as much slack (for the tx/rx delay) as nikon build in I mean if this was a perfect world the 5d2 would sync a 1/320 like the 1d but :(
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That might just be the answer ;) Nikon have always had fast shutters with generally slightly higher x-syncs.

But the reason why the 5D2 doesn't sync higher than 1/200sec is mainly because it is full frame compared to the 1D's 1.3x crop sensor. Full frame 1Ds3 has a faster shutter and is better at 1/250sec, same as Nikon D3.

Some interesting tests here by Rob Galbraith, using various radio triggers and a 5D2 http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9884-9903-9907 Only the Pocket Wizards were clear at 1/200sec and with Hypersync that got up to 1/250sec. He managed to get a 1D3 up to 1/500sec with Hypersync, and the 40D/50D up to 1/400sec.

Maybe we'll see bigger improvements when the Nikon system makes it to market.
 
HoppyUK said:
It begs the question of why though. Do you know the pros and cons of the various frequencies?
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In general higher frequencies offer larger data bandwidth at the expense of usable transmission distance and propagation through objects.

But the issue with lower frequencies is they need larger aerials to operate efficiently, higher frequencies have a smaller optimal aerial size.

Certain frequencies are also less crowded with interference. 433 is close to TV frequencies 2.4GHz is also used for wifi and 900 is mobile phone frequencies.
 
Thmaga said:
In general higher frequencies offer larger data bandwidth at the expense of usable transmission distance and propagation through objects.

But the issue with lower frequencies is they need larger aerials to operate efficiently, higher frequencies have a smaller optimal aerial size.

Certain frequencies are also less crowded with interference. 433 is close to TV frequencies 2.4GHz is also used for wifi and 900 is mobile phone frequencies.
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Thanks Sean :)

Given that we have, for example, Pocket Wizards at the low 400 end, Radio Popper in the middle with 900, and many others like Yongnuo (at least with the RF-602) on 2.4GHz, have you any idea how the pros and cons pan out in this kind of application?

From what you've said, it looks like PW made a mistake with 400-ish given that the only advantage is range yet this is exactly where they have been thwarted through RF radiation from the very flash guns they're trying to trigger.

Maybe the upside of 900 is that you can simply rip the innards out of a mobile phone and get a very high performance module at low cost.

2.4 looks favourite, since my YN's can still manage over 100m which must be enough for most people.
 
I'd just like to say I get 1/250 with ease with my 40D, and occasionally, if the tides are right, I'll get 1/320.
 
I know why its slow, I just wish it was faster :D

I mean 1/250 with some change for radio slaves is another 2/3 a stop of flash power in real terms

1/320 if it had a margin built in would give me a stop more than my 5 currently does
 
david1701 said:
I mean 1/250 with some change for radio slaves is another 2/3 a stop of flash power in real terms
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For those following this thread that don't understand that comment, and always thought "But changing shutter speed has no effect on flash up to the sync speed", I'll elaborate. :)

If you have to shoot 1/125th at f/11 to get the ambient exposure to the level you require so that your flashes can make your subjects pop, to get the same ambient exposure with 1/250th flash sync you'd only require an aperture of f/8.

Going from f/11 to f/8 means your flashes can shoot at half the power they previously had to adequately expose your subject, thus increasing battery life and shortening recycle times, and giving you an extra stop of power when you need it.
 
huh what? :P

Yeah, fixed, just woke up and my head's not with it yet, and I was distracted by shiny things. Relatively on topic (same manufacturer), my MC-36R just got here :D
 
It's a 2.4Ghz WiFi version of the Nikon MC-36, but at about 1/3rd the price.

Nikon MC-36 (Works on Nikon bodies with a 10 pin port only)

Yongnuo MC-36R (there's a bunch of different versions for various Nikon & Canon bodies).
 
The23rdman said:
I'd just like to say I get 1/250 with ease with my 40D, and occasionally, if the tides are right, I'll get 1/320.
Click to expand...

Unless you have Pocket Wizard with Hypersync, that sounds unlikely... :suspect: ;)

Kaouthia said:
For those following this thread that don't understand that comment, and always thought "But changing shutter speed has no effect on flash up to the sync speed", I'll elaborate. :)

If you have to shoot 1/125th at f/11 to get the ambient exposure to the level you require so that your flashes can make your subjects pop, to get the same ambient exposure with 1/250th flash sync you'd only require an aperture of f/8.

Going from f/11 to f/8 means your flashes can shoot at half the power they previously had to adequately expose your subject, thus increasing battery life and shortening recycle times, and giving you an extra stop of power when you need it.
Click to expand...

Good explanation :)

The main advantage is not so much the reduced power required and faster recycle, but the ability to do it at all.

If the shutter speed is held down by the x-sync limitation, you automatically get a high f/number for the ambient, which means a lot more flash power is needed to match that f/number.

A shift of one f/stop isn't that much most of the time, but with flash a doubling of output is a lot to ask. For example, it's the difference between a guide number of 40 and 56. Or very roughly, it's the difference between being able to do it with a Canon 430EX instead of needing a 580EX at nearly twice the price.

With flash in daylight, you're always pushing to the limit and need all the help you can get.
 
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