Nein Nein Amazon !

[Dale_tem]

Lets force them to pay corporation tax. This will then make them choose the best country for their operations, this may result in a reduction of UK workforce and there is a snowball effect.

Our development company relocated from the UK to Malta due to a 5 year tax break. This saved them a lot of money, allowed them to grow etc. They employee 100 people, that could of been 100 people paying PAYE, paying VAT on purchases, council tax etc. Instead they are all in Malta and the UK get nothing.

Do you know why most of the big IT companies are where they are???? tax incentives. Having those companies there paying no tax stimulates a lot of other business, lots of employment, lots of money being spent, lots of income tax, sales tax etc. etc. etc.

It is not that simple.

 

[Dale_tem]

Paying the least tax possible is business sense.

How often have you found something for £30 in shop A and £40 in shop B and thought I'm going to buy from shop B so that I pay more tax? You want to pay the least and every person and every company wants to pay the least tax. Multinational companies can adjust figures so that they make the most profit in the right country.

 

[boyfalldown]

If they conduct business and make profit in the uk the yes. Make them pay reasonable corporation tax. If they won't then someone else will be entirely happy to make money in the uk and pay their due taxes. Lots of uk companies manage it.

 

[neil_g]

Paying tax isn't then? Dubious accounting practices aside

i dont believe theyre doing anything illegal?

 

[neil_g]

Lots of uk companies manage it.

youd be surprised how many companies/business owners operating in the UK have tax incentive schemes in place. theyve not been flagged by the media though ("HOMGZ SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!")

want to blame someone, blame HMRC.

e: incidentally as an aside/roughly related.. i read something really funny online the other day, calling for gary barlow to lose his OBE/MBE because he used tax loopholes. i guess the countless money he's given to and raised for charity doesnt matter then.

 

[boyfalldown]

youd be surprised how many companies/business owners operating in the UK have tax incentive schemes in place.

want to blame someone, blame HMRC.

oh I'm not blaming Amazon. HMRC however have lots to answer for. I think its a bit of a joke when a company (Particularly one of that size, were not talking about helping a startup here) can pay slightly less tax then it receives in government grants in the UK.

 

[boyfalldown]

Do you know why most of the big IT companies are where they are???? tax incentives. Having those companies there paying no tax stimulates a lot of other business, lots of employment, lots of money being spent, lots of income tax, sales tax etc. etc. etc.

Amazon aren't a big IT company though. Or even a little one. Not that it matters, but we are discussing one company operation in the UK. I know we won't agree on this but if they payed a fair corporation tax you'd still get all the benefits and maybe the country would be in a little less trouble too (thats not saying everything is down to corporate tax avoidance by any means)

 

[Dale_tem]

If they conduct business and make profit in the uk the yes. Make them pay reasonable corporation tax. If they won't then someone else will be entirely happy to make money in the uk and pay their due taxes. Lots of uk companies manage it.

But if the website is developed and the sales team are in Luxemburg and the orders come out in the UK for fulfillment, then how are any sales happening in the UK?

What effect does Amazon have on the UK?

15,000 people working 42 hours a week (4 shifts of 10.5 hours each) for £6.80 an hour costs Amazon £4,284,000 a week. So 4 weeks means £17 million. £3.4 million goes off in PAYE, then how much of the remainder is taxed? If we average it out at a further 15% is on VAT due to purchases, bills etc. then that is £2 million. So in a 4 week period £5.2 million in tax has been received by the government (excluding VAT and assuming most people spend their wages within a month). Then there is all the local companies that money was spent with will also pay tax etc. etc.

 

[boyfalldown]

But if the website is developed and the sales team are in Luxemburg and the orders come out in the UK for fulfillment, then how are any sales happening in the UK?

really? so your seriously suggesting Amazon make no sales in the UK.

What effect does Amazon have on the UK?

15,000 people working 42 hours a week (4 shifts of 10.5 hours each) for £6.80 an hour costs Amazon £4,284,000 a week. So 4 weeks means £17 million. £3.4 million goes off in PAYE, then how much of the remainder is taxed? If we average it out at a further 15% is on VAT due to purchases, bills etc. then that is £2 million. So in a 4 week period £5.2 million in tax has been received by the government (excluding VAT and assuming most people spend their wages within a month). Then there is all the local companies that money was spent with will also pay tax etc. etc.

ahhh so from that we ascertain that if you're a local (presumably SME) company your arguments about employees and VAT don't apply and you still pay corporation tax on top? So from that there must be different types of company?

and also the VAT rate has changed.

As I said a few posts back we won't agree on this. I don't object to Amazon. I even understand why they account the way they do & don't blame them. I think HMRC has much to answer for on this, but I don't think purely because you have a high number of employees is a reason to be let off corporation tax as you seem to suggest

 

[Dale_tem]

15% was on average, you don't pay VAT on your mortgage, utilities are less, no VAT on council tax and 20% on most other things.

Amazon isn't a UK company it is an American company, it does business in the UK and will tweak it to get the best profit. If they can get out of paying tax legally, then they will.

 

[Bristolian]

Bristolian - Did you work at the IKEA Bristol in the warehouse? With Colin and Jim?

No, not worked in the Bristol warehouse. I was an automation troubleshooter and just went wherever they had problems. It was normal to spend a day or two on site assessing the problem before recommending a solution. Most of the time the warehouse would be continuing to operate, albeit with reduced functionality/ability, so I saw a lot of how people were treated and spoke to staff to get their account of the problems they were having. I also spent time in their canteens chatting and listening to their conversations (being a basically nosey git) and never heard any real gripes.

 

[cuthbert]

i think the biggest problem is the tax system itself, the problem with 'corporation tax' and other taxes based on profit is that 'profit' is a measure that can be easily manipulated by larger corporations - in the end though, i don't think it really makes sense to make "companies" pay tax.

companies don't pay tax anyway. you do. the tax a company pays on it's "profits" is basically added onto the margin it sticks on the goods and services it sells.

so to me it makes more sense that if you want to tax a company more fairly in a way that it can't easily account away it's to simply get rid of corporation tax and any other turnover or profit based taxes and stick it on sales tax (ie VAT) - if people are so sure they want corporations to pay more tax that is the fairest way to do it. the more units or services it sells, the more tax it pays... so larger corporations like amazon which is a box shifter will pay more tax simply due to the volume they sell.