Need help buying a TLR

FujiLove

FujiLove

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After weeks of reading half the reviews on the Internet and going back and forth with different options, I've finally decided on buying a medium format TLR. The original plan was to buy something like a Bronica SQ-A, but I think it would be a bit too heavy, so I'm now looking at TLRs.

My criteria, in no particular order:

- Must be square medium format
- Must be in very good condition
- Must be reasonably portable (i.e. I could carry it around most of the day, without getting sick of it)
- Must be something I can use daily - I don't want a beautiful delicate camera which I'm afraid to lug around
- Good, sharp lens
- I like the idea of a waist level finder, but it isn't absolutely essential
- Must be reliable
- I'd like to keep the purchase price below £250 if at all possible (less would be really good!).

I'm not too bothered about the ability to change lenses as I enjoy the limits of using a fixed prime. Most of my photos are travel, street and landscapes. I don't mind using a hand-help meter and I prefer fully manual cameras.

My short-list is made up of the usual suspects:

- Rolleicord (don't think I could stretch to a Rolleiflex)
- Yashica MAT
- Minolta Autocord
- Something a bit more unusual like a Flexaret

The problem is, within that group there seem to be an endless number of cameras, especially the Rollei and Yashica, and I have no idea which ones are the 'best' and which are to be avoided. Also, the range of prices these things go for on eBay is vast, which makes it really hard to work out how much I should be paying. I've watched a load of TLRs sold on eBay for the last couple of weeks and they all go for different prices and all seem to be slightly different models, specs, condition etc. It's doing my head in working out what to look for!

I'd really appreciate some advice as to good solid options to look at, and maybe ones to avoid. Also, if anyone could advise how much I should be paying for particular examples in good condition. Not sure I fancy buying something like this off eBay, as you can't get a clear idea of condition, so recommendations for good 'real world' places to buy would also be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
I've seen a couple of Yashica MATs (the 120 version, now 124G, without the meter) that look nice and clean and are well within budget. Does anyone have info regarding those? Wondering if the 124Gs worth the premium?
 
FujiLove said:
After weeks of reading half the reviews on the Internet and going back and forth with different options, I've finally decided on buying a medium format TLR. The original plan was to buy something like a Bronica SQ-A, but I think it would be a bit too heavy, so I'm now looking at TLRs.

My criteria, in no particular order:

- Must be square medium format
- Must be in very good condition
- Must be reasonably portable (i.e. I could carry it around most of the day, without getting sick of it)
- Must be something I can use daily - I don't want a beautiful delicate camera which I'm afraid to lug around
- Good, sharp lens
- I like the idea of a waist level finder, but it isn't absolutely essential
- Must be reliable
- I'd like to keep the purchase price below £250 if at all possible (less would be really good!).

I'm not too bothered about the ability to change lenses as I enjoy the limits of using a fixed prime. Most of my photos are travel, street and landscapes. I don't mind using a hand-help meter and I prefer fully manual cameras.

My short-list is made up of the usual suspects:

- Rolleicord (don't think I could stretch to a Rolleiflex)
- Yashica MAT
- Minolta Autocord
- Something a bit more unusual like a Flexaret

The problem is, within that group there seem to be an endless number of cameras, especially the Rollei and Yashica, and I have no idea which ones are the 'best' and which are to be avoided. Also, the range of prices these things go for on eBay is vast, which makes it really hard to work out how much I should be paying. I've watched a load of TLRs sold on eBay for the last couple of weeks and they all go for different prices and all seem to be slightly different models, specs, condition etc. It's doing my head in working out what to look for!

I'd really appreciate some advice as to good solid options to look at, and maybe ones to avoid. Also, if anyone could advise how much I should be paying for particular examples in good condition. Not sure I fancy buying something like this off eBay, as you can't get a clear idea of condition, so recommendations for good 'real world' places to buy would also be appreciated.

Thanks!
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Basically all of the TLRs you mention meet your criteria. As I stated in another thread, the biggest factor in the look of the images you will get from these cameras has far less to do with the camera and far more to do with the person operating it.

All of these are 6x6cm, they all have waist level finders, they are all very portable, they're all reasonably inexpensive, and all are capable of producing good results. Just go out and buy one in decent condition and you're set.

You could consider adding one of the Mamiya TLRs to your list (e.g., C220, C330, etc.), which is the only series of TLRs that offers interchangeable lenses, although they will be a bit bigger than the others.
 
Agree with RJ, just jump in. I ended up with an Autocord from a dealer for circa £100; its light, compact and appears to be capable enough for my first foray into TLR. I'd struggle to see what extra something more than double its price would give me to be honest (except a meter but if you have a handheld you're set).
 
I have a Yashica MAT EM, very nice to use and well built. It's a cheaper option compared to some of the nicer ones (I think it cost around £50 from Ebay) but I've had some very nice shots from it so far, using TRI-X and Ektar. I wouldn't mind carrying it around for a while - it's not stupidly heavy. The built-in meter seems to be pretty much bang on as well.

If you get one be aware of the dreaded issue relating to accidentally using the self timer with the flash sync in a certain setting. Can be mitigated with a simple rubber band though :)
 
I have a Yashicamat 124G and am very happy with it; but I don't think you'll go far wrong with a Rolleicord or Minolta Autocord either. If you can get one - any of these types - with a guarantee, within your budget, then you'll have nothing to lose.
 
Thanks for the replies and opinions. I've narrowed it down (in order) to: Minolta Autocord, Rolleicord (version v seems a good bet) and Yashica Mat (with or without light meter). Any thoughts on the best Minolta model or ones to avoid?

Also, can anyone recommend a decent camera dealer or shop in the SE of England? eBay seems a bit of a gamble.

Thanks
 
With the Rolleicord, a IV is also a good bet. With the Yashica, they all use the same lenses so buy whichever one comes in best condition and clean lenses. Don't worry too much about the selenium light meters, a bonus if they work but hardly essential.
 
freecom2 said:
With the Rolleicord, a IV is also a good bet. With the Yashica, they all use the same lenses so buy whichever one comes in best condition and clean lenses. Don't worry too much about the selenium light meters, a bonus if they work but hardly essential.
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Thanks for the heads-up on the Rollei IV and Yashica lenes :)

Despite my comment about eBay, I've got my eye on a Rolleicord Vb at the moment. Just hoping the price doesn't shoot off to £300, like all the others I've been watching!
 
FujiLove said:
Rolleicord V purchased this afternoon. Thanks for all the advice chaps. :)

...now, who knows where they're selling cheap Tri-X?!
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Congrats on the TLR purchase; I'm sure that you'll enjoy it. (y)

One bit of advice: make sure that your first rolls through it are fresh film.
 
skysh4rk said:
Congrats on the TLR purchase; I'm sure that you'll enjoy it. (y)

One bit of advice: make sure that your first rolls through it are fresh film.
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Wise words indeed.
 
skysh4rk said:
Congrats on the TLR purchase; I'm sure that you'll enjoy it. (y)

One bit of advice: make sure that your first rolls through it are fresh film.
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And be sure to load it correctly. I buggered my 1st roll through a Rollei because I thought I knew how..
 
trevorbray said:
And be sure to load it correctly. I buggered my 1st roll through a Rollei because I thought I knew how..
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Yes, lots to learn. And having to learn is one of the big reasons for buying this camera. I've started to immerse myself in photography for the first time in decades and I want to explore the medium format, the square format, old cameras, their quirks, their lenses, different film types etc. I also want to slow down and start taking photographs I can be proud of, instead of snapping away with a digital device and picking the one out of a hundred that worked by accident. I predict fun times ahead :-)
 
FujiLove said:
Rolleicord V purchased this afternoon. Thanks for all the advice chaps. :)

...now, who knows where they're selling cheap Tri-X?!
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Excellent choice, a great and classic TLR, the best of the Rolleicords IMHO!

Enjoy!
 
One bit of advice: make sure that your first rolls through it are fresh film.
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I will be using fresh film, but I'm wondering why you suggested that. Is it to remove a variable in case the camera isn't functioning correctly?
 
Basically yeah, the less uncontrolled variables the better. Its a bit of a pain if you use fresh film and discover its knackered or has light leaks but if the speeds are out you can rule out dud film at least.
 
I would go for a Minolta autocord (without exposure meter)
They have a helical focus mechanism, so the lenses remain true even when well used.
It has a better lens than the Xenar in the rolleicord or the yashinon in the Yashicas
It also feeds the film with out putting a bend in the frame as do the others... it feeds in the reverse direction.

All of them can have service problems because they are now very old, and grease hardens. A good service should make any of them (with out major faults) last for many more years. All of them share lenshoods, filters and close up lenses.

the CDS Exposure meters on the Minolta and yashicamat are now always unreliable and were not very good by modern standards anyway. meterless models with a Weston V would be a better bet. Rolleicords never had meters fitted.

If you do go for a Rolleicord (not that I would) The V , Va and Vb are the best, there is little to choose between them except the later ones could be fitted with a kit to take 16 on 120 in horizontal format ... a rather doubtful advantage.

Some Yashicamat's could use 220 roll film which is no longer available so a rather useless complication now.

I have used most models of the rolleiflex and a Minolta Autocord professionally and they are all very reliable. however most professionals used Rolleiflexes and they can be very "Over" used, and can be difficult to choose unless you know them well.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
... the CDS Exposure meters on the Minolta and yashicamat are now always unreliable ...
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A bit unfair, I think you're just as likely to get a Weston V that's past its prime. I can't speak for the Minolta as I've never had one but the meter on my Yashica has been pretty much bang on. Good enough for accurate exposures on Velvia and that's usually good enough for me.


Terrywoodenpic said:
Some Yashicamat's could use 220 roll film which is no longer available so a rather useless complication now.
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On my 124, 220 is selected by turning the pressure plate through 90 degrees. Hardly complicated nor does it make any difference to how the camera is used.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Some Yashicamat's could use 220 roll film which is no longer available so a rather useless complication now.
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The part about 220 being unavailable is simply untrue, for instance, it's extremely easy to buy Portra 160 and Portra 400 in 220. That said, both the number of emulsions and the availability of those emulsions is decreasing. More 220 options can be sourced from Japan.

Some of the later Minolta Autocords also had 220 capabilities.
 
The real issue with the remaining 220 film is that it is quite expensive! 220 offers twice as many exposures as 120 film, but it now costs more than twice the price, and makes it more difficult to finish a roll.

The Rolleicord V is a great TLR. You'll have a lot of fun. Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it's still the same process of setting an aperture, setting a shutter speed and focusing on a subject.
 
Strappy said:
A bit unfair, I think you're just as likely to get a Weston V that's past its prime. I can't speak for the Minolta as I've never had one but the meter on my Yashica has been pretty much bang on. Good enough for accurate exposures on Velvia and that's usually good enough for me.




On my 124, 220 is selected by turning the pressure plate through 90 degrees. Hardly complicated nor does it make any difference to how the camera is used.
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It is not a question of fairness... Very few CDS meters have survived well and are unrepairable. Hand meters can be discarded or not purchased in the first place, if they prove defective.

I have had more than a dozen Rolleiflexes from new, some with meters and some with out, and have always preferred to use a hand held meter with them, as did most professionals.
I knew very few in the UK who preferred 220 films over 120. at least the backing gave a 120 roll protection on one side. Nor would 220 fit on the standard stainless steel reels and cradles for developing in the 3 Gallon tanks, that most of us used..

I knew no professionals who used Yashicas. and only a few who used Minoltas

My first and second Rollies were Rolleicords a V, and a Va. I was staggered by the difference made by the 3.5 Tessar of the equivalent 1956 Rolleiflex, and simply blown away by my first Planar, which rivalled the earlier Planar on the Hasselblad for sharpness. I never bought one with a Xenotar though some people swear by them.

However as a family camera I preferred the Minolta as it did not matter how long you left the film as it never developed a kink. When using a Rolleiflex, rolleicord or Yashica I always wound on a blank frame after the first shot if it had been left standing more than an hour. But as I mostly shot several films at a time it was not often a problem.
The bend in the film in a rollie, positions itself in the middle of the next frame when you wind on. Rollie knew about this and other problems, so provided an optical front pressure glass for critical or aerial work and for use in high winds, where the film could be sucked inwards out of the focal plane..
 
skysh4rk said:
The part about 220 being unavailable is simply untrue, for instance, it's extremely easy to buy Portra 160 and Portra 400 in 220. That said, both the number of emulsions and the availability of those emulsions is decreasing. More 220 options can be sourced from Japan.

Some of the later Minolta Autocords also had 220 capabilities.
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It is also quite difficult to find local processors for 220 film Unless you buy the equipment yourself.
There must be thousands of cameras capable of taking 220 out there, but that have never used it nor ever likely to.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
It is also quite difficult to find local processors for 220 film Unless you buy the equipment yourself.
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That is completely untrue. Basically every professional lab processes 220 (e.g., AG, Genie, UK Film Lab, etc.) and my local Snappy Snaps processes it as well. There's no trick to it, it's just twice as long as 120 and about the same length as 135, so it fits on the exact same reel as 120 and 135 film. No special equipment needed and easy to do at home, if necessary, or through a lab.

Terrywoodenpic said:
There must be thousands of cameras capable of taking 220 out there, but that have never used it nor ever likely to.
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That part might be true.
 
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skysh4rk said:
That is completely untrue. Basically every professional lab processes 220 (e.g., AG, Genie, UK Film Lab, etc.) and my local Snappy Snaps processes it as well. There's no trick to it, it's just twice as long as 120 and about the same length as 135, so it fits on the exact same reel as 120 and 135 film. No special equipment needed and easy to do at home, if necessary, or through a lab.



That part might be true.
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A professional centre loading stainless steel reel holds exactly a 120 length no more. True you could buy larger reels and special racks, But I never met any one who did.
At the time 220 came out there were not many continuous processing machines around, they were mostly dip and dunk. By the time they were common, Medium format was a minority interest.
220 has always been the short end of a minority interest. Though it has outlasted the 70mm professional format.

I have not seen a high street on site processor recently, though there are still some out there. Even most Boots send stuff off now if it requires film development.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
A professional centre loading stainless steel reel holds exactly a 120 length no more. True you could buy larger reels and special racks, But I never met any one who did.
At the time 220 came out there were not many continuous processing machines around, they were mostly dip and dunk. By the time they were common, Medium format was a minority interest.
220 has always been the short end of a minority interest. Though it has outlasted the 70mm professional format.

I have not seen a high street on site processor recently, though there are still some out there. Even most Boots send stuff off now if it requires film development.
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Most of these labs nowadays are using Fuji Frontiers (e.g., the pro labs, Boots, Snappy Snaps, etc.) which are capable of handling 220. Maybe a number of years ago it was a problem to get 220 processed, I wouldn't know, but I haven't encountered any problems getting my 220 developed by a lab or in my bathroom any time recently.

To my knowledge, the biggest problem going forward with 220 isn't the processing, but the cost of manufacturing, as I believe it requires separate machinery from 120.
 
Strappy said:
Good point, that invalidates what I'm saying about the meter on my Yashica. o_O
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I am sure your meter does work,

I do not doubt your word.
However the proportion of CDS meters that still work is decreasing every day. Most worked on Mercury cells which were totally stable, the replacement and Wein cells are very good but they are not as stable over their life. Rollies used batteryless selenium light meters made by Gossen. Which are sometimes repairable.

skysh4rk said:
Most of these labs nowadays are using Fuji Frontiers (e.g., the pro labs, Boots, Snappy Snaps, etc.) which are capable of handling 220. Maybe a number of years ago it was a problem to get 220 processed, I wouldn't know, but I haven't encountered any problems getting my 220 developed by a lab or in my bathroom any time recently.
To my knowledge, the biggest problem going forward with 220 isn't the processing, but the cost of manufacturing, as I believe it requires separate machinery from 120.
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I read somewhere that there is now only one maker of film backing paper left, so I suppose it must be a problem. However a 220 roll is attached quite differently as a leader and tail, both of which must be able to take the full winding strain. Unlike 120 where all the strain is taken on the paper not the Join or film. The production winding equipment must be very different and specialised.

You are the first actual user of 220 that I have ever conversed with since it was first introduced, you are clearly amongst a very select few.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
You are the first actual user of 220 that I have ever conversed with since it was first introduced, you are clearly amongst a very select few.
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220 was introduced in 1965, so someone must have been using it all these years for Kodak and Fuji to still be selling it nearly 50 years later. It's not nearly as uncommon as you're suggesting, although I would concede that the market for this type of film is definitely decreasing as only certain types of photographers can justify paying the price premium for it. In my case, I was lucky to pick up a bunch of boxes off eBay at a good price, so it was worth it for me, as you can get more exposures and 220 lies flatter than 120.

Anyhow, we should probably stop derailing this thread from its discussion of TLRs. :D
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
I am sure your meter does work,

I do not doubt your word.
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That wasn't the point of my post, I was querying the relevance of no professionals using Yashicas when the discussion was about the meter.

Terrywoodenpic said:
However the proportion of CDS meters that still work is decreasing every day. Most worked on Mercury cells which were totally stable, the replacement and Wein cells are very good but they are not as stable over their life. Rollies used batteryless selenium light meters made by Gossen. Which are sometimes repairable.
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So is it the meter or the battery that's a problem? I recently swapped out the dead battery in my Yash for a hearing aid battery and a washer - same voltage, much reduced life but as they cost tuppence-ha'penny for a bucketful, I don't see it being a particular issue.
 
skysh4rk said:
220 was introduced in 1965, so someone must have been using it all these years for Kodak and Fuji to still be selling it nearly 50 years later. It's not nearly as uncommon as you're suggesting, although I would concede that the market for this type of film is definitely decreasing as only certain types of photographers can justify paying the price premium for it. In my case, I was lucky to pick up a bunch of boxes off eBay at a good price, so it was worth it for me, as you can get more exposures and 220 lies flatter than 120.

Anyhow, we should probably stop derailing this thread from its discussion of TLRs. :D
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As I mentioned in a previous post It was never used much in the UK. The USA did take to it rather better. Here it had a small but loyal following.

Strappy said:
That wasn't the point of my post, I was querying the relevance of no professionals using Yashicas when the discussion was about the meter.
So is it the meter or the battery that's a problem? I recently swapped out the dead battery in my Yash for a hearing aid battery and a washer - same voltage, much reduced life but as they cost tuppence-ha'penny for a bucketful, I don't see it being a particular issue.
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The Thread is about which TLR. Exposure meters are a factor in that choice. as is professional use.

Hearing aid Batteries are 1.4 volt wein cells and die in 14 days after exposing to air and has a noticeable voltage drop after 7 days. I use them in my aids.
The mercury cell was 1.35 volt and had a shelf life of about ten years and kepy the same voltage till exhausted.. (I still have some "New" ones)
 
I finally got my sweaty hands on my lovely new Rolleicord yesterday, and wow, what a wonderful piece of kit it is. I'm completely mesmerised by the viewfinder which looks like a 3D image. How the heck does it do that?! My Tri-X hasn't arrived yet, so I'm still playing with an empty camera (that's fun enough for me right now) :-)

I'm less impressed with the really tatty old leather strap (case itself is great), which in the process of gently untangling, literally broke apart in my hands. My first thought was, "oh no", quickly followed by, "thank goodness that happened now and not when I was carrying the camera". So now I need a new strap. I assume the best thing to do is attach one to the camera itself so I can then use it with or without the case. Can anyone recommend something decent (ideally a wide strap)? Also I noticed that the strap lugs have a sort of raised button below them that, presumably, work to help secure a strap.

Right, I'm going back out to the garden to look in awe through the viewfinder :-)
 
The TLR viewfinder is wonderful. Does your Rollei have a brightscreen installed? If so, it's likely to be a much more enjoyable camera to use.

Those leather straps are notorious for breaking. They can sometimes be very attractive, but are now very prone to snapping and disintegrating, and are best avoided for regular use (or any use, actually).

I have always ignored the scissor attachments, and instead always used a neoprene Op/Tech strap - usually a pro loop strap, so the attachments loop around and inside the strap lugs and then connect to the main body of the strap. Not in keeping with the camera style-wise, but an excellent way of supporting the camera and ensuring the weight feels absolutely minimal.

Additionally, it is a much cheaper option, and allows the strap to be used on multiple cameras.
 
Now
FujiLove said:
Ah...now I notice there are these scissor type straps (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Widepan-R...ography_VintageCameras_SM&hash=item233629e150)

Is this the right fit for the Rolleicord or are you guys just using normal straps with fabric strips that push through the strap lugs?
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Now, I'm not saying these people should be avoided but any company that uses the phrase

"Check out our other items. Some are very unique!"

may not have the highest standards, I'm not sure Id be attaching my Rolleicord to one of their straps even if they were charging £45 for it.
 
FWIW I use laptop bag straps for my heavier SLRs. Might be worth considering for the new purchase? Maybe a modded up version?
 
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