National League (Conference) Football

gibtheo

gibtheo

Suspended / Banned
Messages
459
Name
Steven
Edit My Images
Yes
I'm heading back home to the UK next week after 2 years in Australia so I thought I'd renew my Conference licence.

The question is, what can a freelancer actually do with the pics?! Obviously, not Dataco protected, so can you just sell them to whoever you want? ie fans, players families, etc.

I appreciate that I could have just emailed the lady at the National league, which I obviously will, but I wondered what any of you lot do with the pics?

Hope everyone is good.

PS. I'll be looking to cover any rugby league that I can too, just need to buy that 400mm lens. Urgh.
 
The usage allowed by the FC licence is basically in printed newspapers, special editions of printed newspapers and newspaper websites. Don't see any mention of much else and I would work on the basis that you can't do much with the pics at all except to send them to newspapers or post them on your own, secured web gallery.
Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for that information mate.

I only photographed 2 Conference games on my last licence (I was out of the country all season except 2 weeks) and nobody was interested in the pics so they went nowhere. Suppose I may as well get the licence anyway, something might crop up of interest.
 
All you have to do is ask to get a conference licence.. This means every man and his dog has one.. Had mine for about 12 yrs.. So many people flooding the market wiht pics and so few people wishing to pay..

However.. You can use the conf licence to sell pics to papers and get your proper league dataco licence.. Yes you can.. I talked a mate through it last yr and this season he has his first league licence.. It takes effort to get the first one but once you have a dataco licence its less effort to keep it because every man and his dog hasn't got one :)
 
kippax is correct, i tried to tell somebody that it was his best way forward but he said did not want to do non league but quite happy to work for nowt and give at least 30% away when/if he gets anything used but haho each to his own
 
blue marlin said:
kippax is correct, i tried to tell somebody that it was his best way forward but he said did not want to do non league but quite happy to work for nowt and give at least 30% away when/if he gets anything used but haho each to his own
Click to expand...


Lazy.. they just want to go to big games without too much effort.. I have had loads of people ask me for advice on getting a licence ..so far only two people have taken the advice (out of so many i cant remember).. seen it through and got the licence.. because only two have actually put the effort in and made a serious attempt..

getting a league licence is doable but you ahve to be serious about the job and put the effort in .....


Sorry just winds me up a bit :)
 
I'm aware that it's pretty easy to get a Conference licence, just got to have the insurance and fill out the forms, then send off. I did it last year. I just found it very hard to get any interest in the pics (only did 2 games obviously), but both were covered by local paper who I believe were sending pics to the away teams local paper, then the club photographers and then me. I got in touch with the non-league paper but they weren't interested, as they had bigger games that week. Fair enough. I can get to Grimsby and North Ferriby fairly easily so will probably cover a few games there. We'll see.

Thanks for the comments.
 
Its a hard life! I shoot for the club, so there is a 'point' to the effort, but no dosh. Resigned to that, way past the struggle to elbow out the paid press snappers by giving stuff away free to the press. More money shooting weddings, kids, virtually any other kind of photography :-(
 
Haha! Yes, I've lost count of the amount of times I have been told 'there's no money in sports photography any more'. I'm sure things have changed a lot in recent years but I suppose Kipax is proof that there is money to be made with the right approach and if you select the right areas of the market.
 
gibtheo said:
Haha! Yes, I've lost count of the amount of times I have been told 'there's no money in sports photography any more'. I'm sure things have changed a lot in recent years but I suppose Kipax is proof that there is money to be made with the right approach and if you select the right areas of the market.
Click to expand...


I am on the edge............not making a fortune.. but am making enough to live on and sometimes put a bit away... I have a few different revenue streams with online sales.. spec sales to nationals... private jobs and some regular company jobs....But my biggest customer is my local paper who have me on a retainer for every weekend of the yr where I get paid no matter how much or little I do .......If that paper decides to cut back and do away with freelancers I would have to consider packing it all in.. in fact probably would... so its always a worry ...

But I am enjoying life so :)
 
How does the system work with Conference league? Do you just turn up and Tog or is it a request system like the FL?
 
If you have a Permier / FL license do you need a conference license to do conference matches?
 
This is my first season with a National League licence and I don't drive so it's quite hard to travel to game that are quite far away. I'm ok covering teams in the south and London but anything more north could be a struggle.

Anyway what i'm really trying to say is that i've contacted the non-league paper numerous times before and every time they don't want photos from the game i said i could cover. I know they sometimes ask if anyone can cover games, (which most of the time are in the north).

Should i just cover games and just build up a portfolio or just keep asking local papers, non league paper etc if they would like images?
 
I don't think there are any clubs where the NLP will use pics every week. Once they know you - and are happy with your quality of work and reliability - you need to contact them early in the week to see if there is anything going in the area you're prepared to travel within. They cover games all over the country and at all different levels, although they will obviously concentrate on the National League.

Get a portfolio of your best stuff online and build a relationship with them. Then make sure you have a workflow that will allow you to meet their deadlines on a Saturday evening (7pm usually).
 
Thanks Alan, so you think i should start covering National League games to build up a bigger portfolio? I've shown them my portfolio before, twice actually, once and then a year later and nothing really happened after that.

That workflow should be more than fine, I'm a club photographer for a Ladies team so i'm used to meeting deadlines for the night after a game.
 
If you're building a portfolio then I'm not sure that you need to do any particular level but having a proper ground and spectators in your backgrounds won't do you any harm. Keep asking them if there are any games you can do - sooner or later you'll find out whether they're ever going to use you or not.

I had similar experiences when I was starting out. Sitting back and waiting for them to make the contact doesn't work IMHO. Getting stuff in local papers can be nice for the ego but the truth is that finding papers who will pay ain't easy and many will publish any old rubbish if they're getting it for free. Giving images away free does no-one any good in the short or longer term.

Best of luck anyway.
 
Thank you Alan, will keep trying, they have seen my portfolio, so just hope soon enough if i keep asking i'll be able to cover a game for them.

Think i'll ask some local papers as well, but only ones that pay of course.
 
Got an email back from the NLP and looks like it's going to be quite hard to even get a game with them. They said email them when i'm free but it's 'very unlikely' i'll be able to get a game because they have photographer who they already know.

Will keep trying and may just cover games just for myself and my portfolio, just finding it hard to get my foot through the door.

Just worried i'm not going to get anywhere.
 
JordanHPhoto said:
Got an email back from the NLP and looks like it's going to be quite hard to even get a game with them. They said email them when i'm free but it's 'very unlikely' i'll be able to get a game because they have photographer who they already know.

Will keep trying and may just cover games just for myself and my portfolio, just finding it hard to get my foot through the door.

Just worried i'm not going to get anywhere.
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand your slight pessimism - I have recently been through the process and it is not easy. A few thoughts. You need to build a portfolio as has been said earlier and there are many ways of doing this. The main purpose of the portfolio is to show would be customers of what you can do and it need not be of league football. I cut my teeth on local hockey for two years and kept putting them on Flickr, properly tagged and then built my own web site and included images there. I then expanded into other local sports, all the time honing my skills - but not earning any money but equally not giving local newspapers images for free. Next step was to do some work for sports photo agencies (several are easy to find on google). Not great pay but a at least you begin to work at a higher level and with some small financial return. Again keep feeding the web site and Flickr with better quality images. For me this was a three year journey. Then breakthroughs started. One or two agencies saw my work and approached me., very recently approached by a large regional newspaper who wanted to extend their reach to an area of the country where I live. They saw my web site, liked what I have done and I am about to do some work for them in premier league football using their Dataco licence - something I could never have acquired myself. Maybe a bit lucky but I have worked hard for it. So, it's patience, dedication and a bit of luck thrown in.
In summary, this is not an area of photography where opportunities just fall into your lap. You seem like someone who is prepared to put in the effort so go for it. Do not give up but be prepared for a long journey and good luck!
I finish by saying I am no expert. I have simply explained what happened to me and I claim no monopoly on how to do it
 
You cant make a living working for agencies photographing premiership football on spec.


So why do you want to be a sports Photographer? to big it up at great events or to make a living? My advice to anyone wanting to make a living out of sports photography is to forget premiership football and try to lose the notion that the bigger the game the more money you make... Papers pay the same for rooney scoring as they do for fred bloggs scoring.. if they use it.... there are more photogrpahers than newspapers at games.. most papers have deals with agencies for long term cheaper pics... whats left is slim pickings for little agencies or freelancers.. You can get a great picture that nobody else got and the papers will use a stock man on ball image instead if they had a deal in place.. You can get published from these games as a freelancer on spec.. but not enough time to make a living from..


getting your own dataco licence gives you more freedom to pick and choose games and also gets you 100% of the fees paid.. more important they would be your pictures not owned by an agency..Recently two of my friends got there own dataco licence by following my advice.. Its advice I have given to many many people (a few on here).. 90% of which arn't prepared to put the effort in and didnt even try.... You have to travel a lot and probably lose money the first year to get your licence.. but once you have it then things become easier to make money and keep the licence. But still not enough to live on..

If your just in it for the experience and a few extra quid then good luck to you.. the money you will pay out.. the time and effort you put in will far outweigh the money you make..

Me? i have been a full time sports photographer for 7+ years now.. I know to stay away from the premiership or big cup games.. I know that i can make more money shooting an u16s game in a field than most people make at a chelsea v arsenal match..

Local paper DO PAY for non league football. not all of them but enough do.. thats a fact... . But theres not much chance of them paying for pictures in the same town... the way to sell non league is to go to games they wont send a photogrpaher to.. so for example if grimsby where playing at torquay theres no way the local paper would send anyone that far.. so you go for them.. yes you pay more on fuel than you make but see above.. its that first season getting the licence.. you might lose out but once you have the licence then you can shoot league and more chances of selling than NL

Its doable.. its always been doable.. people are getting dataco licences every yr inclusing new ones this season.... people who put the effort in and dont just cry about how hard it is..

But I repeat.. having a licence isnt it.. you wont make a living just shooting top end football..

Post is meant to be helpful not harsh condescening nasty putoffish or anyhting else anyone wants to make it out to be....

spelling police....do one :)
 
I do not disagree with Kippax. He is right to advise that prem football is not necessarily the way to go. It is, as he says, all about what you want from photography. For me it is to be at the big games and enjoy that buzz and for others that is not what gets the money coming in on a regular basis. I wonder how many opportunities will exist in the near future for the OP to find a local newspaper who will pay up for images. They are becoming a very scarce commodity. Kippax is, in my opinion, quite fortunate to have established a healthy working relationship with a newspaper that pays. If i were in his shoes I would be very content, although missing the buzz I referred to earlier.
I value Kippax input on themes on this site and his words here are no exception,
 
Plumtreelad said:
I do not disagree with Kippax. He is right to advise that prem football is not necessarily the way to go. It is, as he says, all about what you want from photography. For me it is to be at the big games and enjoy that buzz and for others that is not what gets the money coming in on a regular basis. I wonder how many opportunities will exist in the near future for the OP to find a local newspaper who will pay up for images. They are becoming a very scarce commodity. Kippax is, in my opinion, quite fortunate to have established a healthy working relationship with a newspaper that pays. If i were in his shoes I would be very content, although missing the buzz I referred to earlier.
I value Kippax input on themes on this site and his words here are no exception,
Click to expand...


I thnk you missed a very important point.. I wasnt talking about the paper I work for who BTW wouldnt pay a freelancer for non league football.. the people I know who got a licence for this season where paid by various newspapers around the country for non league photograp[hs.. unfortunatly your one of these who seem to believe the opposite... and again for the second and hopefully last time.. there are enough newspapers paying in order to get a licence.. the one I work for isn't one of them..
 
KIPAX said:
I thnk you missed a very important point.. I wasnt talking about the paper I work for who BTW wouldnt pay a freelancer for non league football.. the people I know who got a licence for this season where paid by various newspapers around the country for non league photograp[hs.. unfortunatly your one of these who seem to believe the opposite... and again for the second and hopefully last time.. there are enough newspapers paying in order to get a licence.. the one I work for isn't one of them..
Click to expand...
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am pleased that there are those opportunities that you refer to. Be assured that I am now a "believer". Thanks
 
Thanks for the advice guys. As I said i will keep going with the non league paper and see if anything pops up. Also I will contact local papers and see if they need a photographer for a game. And cover games local to me to build up my portfolio more.
 
Plumtreelad said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am pleased that there are those opportunities that you refer to. Be assured that I am now a "believer". Thanks
Click to expand...


Sorry its just that so many people say papers dont pay and then others believe it.. its just not true.. as I say people are getting there licences.. papers do pay... they just wont pay for local football on there doorstep (and i dont blame them) so you have to work out what they will need thats all and it does work... :)
 
KIPAX said:
Sorry its just that so many people say papers dont pay and then others believe it.. its just not true.. as I say people are getting there licences.. papers do pay... they just wont pay for local football on there doorstep (and i dont blame them) so you have to work out what they will need thats all and it does work... :)
Click to expand...
yes, it is a point that I had not properly assessed. I never thought about the needs of the away side media opportunity and I think that is what you are saying is where the opportunity rests. I wish I had seen this tip sooner as it would have saved me a lot of heartache. Anyway, the point is now well made and I hope that others will take notice of it and use it.
For my part, I am preparing for Saturday at Leicester and although I know that it may not produce much in the way of financial return I will enjoy the buzz and the challenge and hopefully the colleagues around me. I would imagine that I am best to keep a low profile and just get on with the image capture. I have heard "horror stories" allegedly suggesting that experienced pro photogs do not take too kindly to newbies arriving on the scene. I hope that is not true. Not found it to be a problem in the Women's Premier League football, but only time will tell.

Regards and thanks again
 
KIPAX said:
Sorry its just that so many people say papers dont pay and then others believe it.. its just not true.. as I say people are getting there licences.. papers do pay... they just wont pay for local football on there doorstep (and i dont blame them) so you have to work out what they will need thats all and it does work... :)
Click to expand...
yes, it is a point that I had not properly assessed. I never thought about the needs of the away side media opportunity and I think that is what you are saying is where the opportunity rests. I wish I had seen this tip sooner as it would have saved me a lot of heartache. Anyway, the point is now well made and I hope that others will take notice of it and use it.
For my part, I am preparing for Saturday at Leicester and although I know that it may not produce much in the way of financial return I will enjoy the buzz and the challenge and hopefully the colleagues around me. I would imagine that I am best to keep a low profile and just get on with the image capture. I have heard "horror stories" allegedly suggesting that experienced pro photogs do not take too kindly to newbies arriving on the scene. I hope that is not true. Not found it to be a problem in the Women's Premier League football, but only time will tell.

Regards and thanks again
 
Plumtreelad said:
I have heard "horror stories" allegedly suggesting that experienced pro photogs do not take too kindly to newbies arriving on the scene. I hope that is not true.
Click to expand...

It is true for the most part yes.. they will probably just blank you..especialy if you lett hem know you are just doing it for fun.. because thats pretty much considered a mortal sin in photography and I agree with that view for a pro enviroment... however I have always and am on record in these forums of the opinion that its nobodies business but your own why your there or what money your making.. I have my views on it of course.. but its not my place or anyone elses place to tell a photogrpaher what he can or cant do....I ahve never taken it from anyone so I wouldnt be two faced to do it to anyone ..




Plumtreelad said:
Not found it to be a problem in the Women's Premier League football, but only time will tell.
Click to expand...

seriously not the same thing.. in fact quite the opposite.. pro photogrpahers have come to the party late.. I have been shooting womens football for 10 yrs (all on my website) and pros only come for cup finals and take the mickey.. then for the super league when that started... its the opposite :)
 
Last edited:
KIPAX said:
. but its not my place or anyone elses place to tell a photogrpaher what he can or cant do...
Click to expand...

I agree with you right up until the point where a photographer shooting for 'fun' prevents a working photographer/ agency getting accreditation to an event/match - and that is happening more and more frequently.
 
DemiLion said:
I agree with you right up until the point where a photographer shooting for 'fun' prevents a working photographer/ agency getting accreditation to an event/match - and that is happening more and more frequently.
Click to expand...

Haa but I did say I agree with the opinion that its wrong.. I dont like for fun photogrpahers being at a pro enviroment game.. I did (I think) make that clear.. What I am saying is.. it's not our/me/you/photogrpahers place to tell the for fun photogrpaher what he can or can't do... Thats dataCo at fault and they are the only ones who can say..
 
KIPAX said:
Haa but I did say I agree with the opinion that its wrong.. I dont like for fun photogrpahers being at a pro enviroment game.. I did (I think) make that clear.. What I am saying is.. it's not our/me/you/photogrpahers place to tell the for fun photogrpaher what he can or can't do... Thats dataCo at fault and they are the only ones who can say..
Click to expand...
Just for the record, I am not just shooting for fun. I am working for a media company and receiving remuneration - I have moved beyond hobby to work - however I also get a buzz out of doing it..although not sure how long that will last.
 
Plumtreelad said:
For me it is to be at the big games and enjoy that buzz and for others that is not what gets the money coming in on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it's this kind of attitude that is making it harder for those trying to make a full time career out of sports photography. This season many of the bigger clubs are restricting the number of photographers quite significantly from previous seasons and as a result people are being refused entry to games because they are over subscribed. If you've got people getting access that are just there for the buzz then it can be at the cost of people actually trying to work.
 
KIPAX said:
... Thats dataCo at fault and they are the only ones who can say..
Click to expand...

The DataCo part is easy. As Dave points out, it's getting the club acceptance that's been getting more difficult this season.
 
DemiLion said:
The DataCo part is easy. As Dave points out, it's getting the club acceptance that's been getting more difficult this season.
Click to expand...


No I meant its there fault there are so many photographers who shouldn't be pitch side.. When you get your dataco licence you become an agency.. you can add whoever you want to that licence.. someone with a weeks knowledge and an entry level dslr plus kit lens can be added to the licence with nobody checking.. that person can then go sit at old trafford or anfield and tell all there mates how great it is... thats the fault of dataco. surely? . I agree with everyone its wrong.. All I am saying is its not the place of pro photogrpahers to police it .
 
tophatter said:
Unfortunately it's this kind of attitude that is making it harder for those trying to make a full time career out of sports photography. This season many of the bigger clubs are restricting the number of photographers quite significantly from previous seasons and as a result people are being refused entry to games because they are over subscribed. If you've got people getting access that are just there for the buzz then it can be at the cost of people actually trying to work.
Click to expand...
Dave, I agree and that is why I have clarified my position - I am a fee earning photographer working for an agency and a newspaper. I do not feel that my presence at an event is inappropriate or in any way adversely/unfairly affecting someone else's right to be there. I do however note the point about greater restrictions being exercised by clubs.
My point was that I also get a buzz out of the work but buzz alone does not pay the mortgage! I stubbornly refuse to do work for no financial return, although at the outset 5 years ago I did do some gratis work for the local newspaper that did eventually bear fruit and I began to get paid. I should add that I do some voluntary photography work for a local hockey club but I do not think that compromises my position.
What I can maybe see looming next on the horizon will be the full time v part time photographer debate. Is it right that a photographer who only works (or needs to work) part time potentially takes up a place that is then denied to a full time photographer. If places are becoming scarcer and restrictions more regular then there will be the potential for greater friction not only between the pro and the "hobbyist" but also between the full timer and the part timer! Tin helmet time!
 
Plumtreelad said:
Dave, I agree and that is why I have clarified my position - I am a fee earning photographer working for an agency and a newspaper. I do not feel that my presence at an event is inappropriate or in any way adversely/unfairly affecting someone else's right to be there. I do however note the point about greater restrictions being exercised by clubs.
My point was that I also get a buzz out of the work but buzz alone does not pay the mortgage! I stubbornly refuse to do work for no financial return, although at the outset 5 years ago I did do some gratis work for the local newspaper that did eventually bear fruit and I began to get paid. I should add that I do some voluntary photography work for a local hockey club but I do not think that compromises my position.
What I can maybe see looming next on the horizon will be the full time v part time photographer debate. Is it right that a photographer who only works (or needs to work) part time potentially takes up a place that is then denied to a full time photographer. If places are becoming scarcer and restrictions more regular then there will be the potential for greater friction not only between the pro and the "hobbyist" but also between the full timer and the part timer! Tin helmet time!
Click to expand...

Apologies - it originally sounded like you weren't doing it as a serious job. I'm just getting fed up of seeing selfies all over Facebook etc of people at big games with entry level equipment who have joined an agency (who have little concern over the quality of the images produced) and these posting the selfies have no concept that they're working there and just there to watch a game and boast to their mates. It could be tolerated before but now it could easily prevent serious working photographers from gaining access to games it's getting more serious.

I agree with Kipax though - it is something than only
DataCo can sort out. There was talk of restricting accreditation to Press Card holders but that didn't seem to happen. I've heard figures being banded about around the number of images that hit the Nationals picture desks on a Saturday afternoon and it's crazy - surely they can't be happy especially given the standard of some of the images posted.
 
tophatter said:
Apologies - it originally sounded like you weren't doing it as a serious job. I'm just getting fed up of seeing selfies all over Facebook etc of people at big games with entry level equipment who have joined an agency (who have little concern over the quality of the images produced) and these posting the selfies have no concept that they're working there and just there to watch a game and boast to their mates. It could be tolerated before but now it could easily prevent serious working photographers from gaining access to games it's getting more serious.

I agree with Kipax though - it is something than only
DataCo can sort out. There was talk of restricting accreditation to Press Card holders but that didn't seem to happen. I've heard figures being banded about around the number of images that hit the Nationals picture desks on a Saturday afternoon and it's crazy - surely they can't be happy especially given the standard of some of the images posted.
Click to expand...
No apology required Dave. Having re read my early posts in this thread I had not made my position entirely clear. I have pro equipment .. And a well earned press card as a consequence of my work. I certainly do not take selfies (ugh).

I am not experienced enough to know who can sort this out - I will leave that to those who have been around longer than me and are more in touch with the grass roots.
I think that I have little more to add to this thread but hope that the OP is stil clear on where he is going and what he needs to do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top