My Turn Today ....

Aren't Kingfishers a protected species? ...... :shrug:
 
Splog said:
Aren't Kingfishers a protected species? ...... :shrug:
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Yes when nesting, usually around march/april ish you shouldn't disturb the nest.
"It is an offence to take, injure or kill a kingfisher or to take, damage or destroy its nest, eggs or young. It is also an offence to intentionally or recklessly disturb the birds close to their nest during the breeding season. Violation of the law can attract fines up to £5,000 per offence and/or a prison sentence of up to six months."
 
Having said I wasn't going to make a complaint to West Midlands Police, I'd forgotten they have a Twitter account, so I sent them the following message ...

@WMPolice Why do your CSOs think it necessary to question a photographer sitting quietly beside the river - "What are you doing?" Classic!!

... and then later I tweeted them once more ....

@WMPolice By the way, I will be there again tomorrow if you want to pop by for another chat - bring biscuits!

... but it was raining so I stayed at home - guess I'll never know what type of biscuits they had! :lol:


Andy
 
Andy I bet you didnt expect this kind of reponse eh? I think you did the right thing and exactly what I would have done. In fact had I been sitting there and the PCs hadn't looked like they were going to talk to me I would probably have started a conversatino with them anyway!

You post a little ditty about your experience and suddenly everyone else seems to have been there with full knowledge of what was going on and the attitude of the officers and with that knowledge they can tell you you did the wrong thing. Amazing innit? :)
 
andybeach said:
Yes but don't worry - it wasn't around when the PCSOs were there! :lol:
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No, but perhaps the PCSO is a twitcher and was just looking out for the kingfishers? ........ ;)
 
AndyB said:
You post a little ditty about your experience and suddenly everyone else seems to have been there with full knowledge of what was going on and the attitude of the officers and with that knowledge they can tell you you did the wrong thing. Amazing innit? :)
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Well it's quite easy when he describes it...
 
I guess being approached by any member of the police force is not ideal...infact I got a slow drive-by with the cop car the other night whilst I was out jogging.

However would I rather they were office bound whilst I was approached by rampaging neds? I think not..
 
andybeach said:
Having said I wasn't going to make a complaint to West Midlands Police, I'd forgotten they have a Twitter account, so I sent them the following message ...

@WMPolice Why do your CSOs think it necessary to question a photographer sitting quietly beside the river - "What are you doing?" Classic!!

... and then later I tweeted them once more ....

@WMPolice By the way, I will be there again tomorrow if you want to pop by for another chat - bring biscuits!

... but it was raining so I stayed at home - guess I'll never know what type of biscuits they had! :lol:


Andy
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Crackers maybe;)?
 
AndyB1976 said:
I guess being approached by any member of the police force is not ideal...infact I got a slow drive-by with the cop car the other night whilst I was out jogging.

However would I rather they were office bound whilst I was approached by rampaging neds? I think not..
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I had that a few years ago, but my experience was a little different. I was out running in the winter, pitch black, 8pm, country lane with no houses and no steetlighting, pretty much the middle of nowhere. I'm an experienced runner and was wearing reflective gear (so I was hardly trying to be inconspicuous) and carrying a flashlight etc. Wearing tight lycra so no chance of hiding contraband or ill-gotten gains. The car does a slow drive by. It's pitch dark so I have no idea it's a police car. It turns around and slowly drives by again (no lights other than headlights so I stll don't know who it is) and by now I'm getting nervous. A couple of minutes later it draws up, forcing me into the side where there is a gully, I perch on the edge hoping I don't fall. A bright flashlight is shone into my face, blinding me. I ask them to remove it and identify themselves. They refuse other than to say they're police officers. I am questioned about what I'm doing (doh) and asked to provide my name and address. I give my name, and I calmly tell them I have lived here for 30 years and am doing my nightly run. I ask again for the light to be removed from my face, I turn my head but am ordered to face the car again. I do so and raise my hands to my eyes to shield them, but am told to remove my hands. I ask them to turn on the interior car light so I can see their faces, I am treated to 'shut your *****ing mouth'. I am told to a 'get home where you belong' which is shouted at me as the car screeches off. I check the next day to see if any crimes had been committed locally that night, none had. I caught the last digits of their number plate and it was confirmed they were 'genuine' police officers. Nice. During my call to the station when I explained that the experience had been unpleasant and unwarranted I was treated in a patronizing manner with comments such as 'then you should know better than to wander around the countryside after dark'. Presumably so I can avoid intimidation and verbal abuse by the police?

I'm all for them being out on the beat Andy, but frankly those men were bored and were looking for a little entertainment. Bullying somebody half their size with no witnesses around must have really made them feel 'big'.
 
Like Lindsey in the last 3 months I have had 2 experiences of my local police, both left me unimpressed.
The first was when I tried to report a child fallen into a flooded river, that took 2 phone calls and a vist to the station before they took any notice.
The second was when a family frend's son runaway (he does it often) the 2 officers that called to my house to ask if we'd seen him give us hard time, this after we'd been out looking for him with his parents, they were obnoxious, we were treated like criminals not friends of the missing boy trying to help.
 
I agree with you both guys...I ain't no fan of cops and their methods.

I live in Glasgow east end and the constant hassle we got as young adults for just being there, a bit like the OP's experience. Only this was a lot, lot less friendly.

I was just trying to see both side of them being visible to the public.

It is just having a camera on you that is such a big deal these days eh...If the OP was at the riverside with a fishing rod they would have walked on past no questions asked I bet. I don't even take my camera to public places because of this and all the associations of a 'guy with a camera'
 
The problem is that the police often totally lack judgement, which is pretty worrying. I know of a photographer who was, a bit like the OP, by a path setting up a small tripod to photograph some wild orchids. It was public space and it was quite obvious what he was doing. An old lady in a nearby block of flats had called the police saying a man with a camera was loitering nearby, the police in their wisdom turned up (at great expense to the public purse I would imagine) with an armed response team. The photographer was forced to lie face down on the ground with rifles trained on him for several minutes. He was arrested and held for hours before being released without apology. It was awful. And yet the women who had made the call would never be cautioned for wasting police time nor would the presiding officer face any disciplinary measures for taking extreme and exaggerated measures. I can understand the police responding to the woman's call, they're supposed to (within reason) but a polite chat with the photographer would have been the appropriate way forward. And yet when, once again whilst jogging, I was assaulted with stones and a broken bottle by a gang of youths on a sunny Saturday afternoon, when I reported it the police told me that being female I should have known better than to go out on my own. Great!
 
The police are mainly interested in 3 things:

1) Terrorists
2) Paedophiles
3) Speeders

If you report anything that does not come vaguely under these 3 headings they will likely take little notice.

Being seen with a camera makes being suspected of being either 1) or 2) quite likely unfortunately.
 
boliston said:
The police are mainly interested in 3 things:

1) Terrorists
2) Paedophiles
3) Speeders
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And people putting superglue on branches to catch kingfishers :lol:
 
Wow, this is really turning into an anti police thread! I'm amazed at the details people know about situations when they weren't even present. Ever heard of Chinese Whispers?
Everyone has bad experiences with all different kinds of people in authority. What you don't hear about are the good ones of which I am sure there are many.
 
Pete B said:
And people putting superglue on branches to catch kingfishers :lol:
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That was my next plan but my wife, the real tree hugger in the family, seemed unimpressed! Dunno why!

Andy


ps - WillyB - for the record, and as I made clear in my original post, I am not anti-Police for the reasons given, though I have to say that outside of the social arena I have not had a 'positive' experience when dealing with the police unless you count the officer who smiled and wished me a good day as he gave me the speeding ticket!! :)

pps - Come to think of it, some of the social contacts may have been less than positive, if only I could remember!!
 
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Good police PR = law abiding citizens love the police and crooks hate them
This thread would suggest that the police are getting it wrong
 
paulminus273 said:
Good police PR = law abiding citizens love the police and crooks hate them
This thread would suggest that the police are getting it wrong
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Quite. And they don't need to change, they can get away with pretty much anything and they know it, these days it's a perk of the job. We can bring all the complaints we like when things get out of hand, just don't expect a fair hearing. A significant proportion join the police force because they have a need to throw their weight around and they can't cut it in normal society. The ones who want to make a difference are subject to institutional bullying of the worst kind and are often faced with either fitting in or getting another career (as was the case with one of my relatives). I'm not doubting their job is horrible at times, but the perks and rewards are beyond anything we might encounter in civilian employment - all at the tax payer's expense of course.

I will go out of my way to assist any officer acting within his/her remit. But I have a pretty big problem with officers who abuse the job we pay them to do. We once had a force to be proud of - not anymore I'm sorry to say. And the minimum entry requirements are a total joke. In order to gain recruits standards have been gradually lowered to keep up numbers - that is entirely the wrong way to go about things in my opinion. And many qualified officers feel that the introduction of PCSOs has been a disaster.
 
Andy
I didn't mean for a moment to suggest you are anti police, your threads are measured and humorous and I think you dealt with the situation admirably.
I was referring to one or two other posts which I think may be slightly exaggerated.
 
Lindsay D said:
I'm not doubting their job is horrible at times, but the perks and rewards are beyond anything we might encounter in civilian employment - all at the tax payer's expense of course.
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Lindsay, I'm not going to wade into an argument over your opinion of the police - but I have to take issue with this.

The only "perks" I get as a (Metropolitan) police officer are:

1) Free travel within 70 miles of London (this comes with obligations, including a positive duty to act on ASB or other crime)

2) A high street discount card provided by Vectis - who also supply the same discount card to numerous other employers. It equates to around 5% off in most major chain stores.

Sometimes, I get a free cup of tea from a victim as well. That's about it.

The main "reward" I get is a pension after 35 years service - for which I contribute 9.5% of my salary every month. There are no public sector workers who have to work as long, nor pay as much, for their pension.

Curiously enough, I am also a tax payer.

Aside from the pension, I'm not sure any of these "perks" are "beyond anything [you] might encounter in civilian life".
 
WillyB said:
Andy
I didn't mean for a moment to suggest you are anti police, your threads are measured and humorous and I think you dealt with the situation admirably.
I was referring to one or two other posts which I think may be slightly exaggerated.
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William, under no circumstances have I 'exaggerated' my experiences with the police, quite the contrary. If your comment was aimed at me in any way then I would ask you to kindly refrain from belittling what others have been through.
 
Lindsay D said:
A significant proportion join the police force because they have a need to throw their weight around and they can't cut it in normal society.
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I'm appalled! That single statement has just undermined your entire argument. You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever with which to back up such a sweeping generalisation and, as someone who know a number of police officers, feel extremely insulted on their behalf.

If you want to put your point across, do it using facts and not conjecture based on what appears to be personal bias.
 
Photo Plod said:
Lindsay, I'm not going to wade into an argument over your opinion of the police - but I have to take issue with this.

The only "perks" I get as a (Metropolitan) police officer are:

1) Free travel within 70 miles of London (this comes with obligations, including a positive duty to act on ASB or other crime)

2) A high street discount card provided by Vectis - who also supply the same discount card to numerous other employers. It equates to around 5% off in most major chain stores.

Sometimes, I get a free cup of tea from a victim as well. That's about it.

The main "reward" I get is a pension after 35 years service - for which I contribute 9.5% of my salary every month. There are no public sector workers who have to work as long, nor pay as much, for their pension.

Curiously enough, I am also a tax payer.

Aside from the pension, I'm not sure any of these "perks" are "beyond anything [you] might encounter in civilian life".
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There is nothing wrong with defending your position and for all I know you could be committed to doing your job as well as you can, but I note that you overlook how dissatisfied many of us are with the 'service' the police provide. I am sorry to have to disagree with you but modern policing falls woefully short of the standards the public should expect. You must accept that many people have been subject to unacceptable behaviour by both officers and PCSOs which accounts for some of the views you have heard. I have only recounted a couple of minor incidents yet to this day I am reeling from one experience which I have no intention of discussing in public. I have no trust whatsoever in our police force and most of the people I know feel the same way.
 
fabs said:
I'm appalled! That single statement has just undermined your entire argument. You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever with which to back up such a sweeping generalisation and, as someone who know a number of police officers, feel extremely insulted on their behalf.

If you want to put your point across, do it using facts and not conjecture based on what appears to be personal bias.
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Unfortunately as far as my admittedly strong statements go, I have not yet been proved wrong, sadly. I respect you sticking up for your friends who may well be good officers (in your experience) and that's reassuring to know but my own experiences have been very different, please take that into consideration. When I have cause to believe in the integrity of our policing, I will adjust my views accordingly.
 
Lindsay D said:
Hmm. One of my friends (a senior officer in the Met) loves to tell me about his perks!
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So what are they?

As a mere DC, I'd love to know what I can aspire to.

Naturally, if your senior friend is abusing his position and receiving unofficial perks, I would be very grateful if you would PM me some details so that I can deal with an allegation of corruption properly.
 
Lindsay D said:
Quite. And they don't need to change, they can get away with pretty much anything and they know it, these days it's a perk of the job. We can bring all the complaints we like when things get out of hand, just don't expect a fair hearing. A significant proportion join the police force because they have a need to throw their weight around and they can't cut it in normal society. The ones who want to make a difference are subject to institutional bullying of the worst kind and are often faced with either fitting in or getting another career (as was the case with one of my relatives). I'm not doubting their job is horrible at times, but the perks and rewards are beyond anything we might encounter in civilian employment - all at the tax payer's expense of course.

I will go out of my way to assist any officer acting within his/her remit. But I have a pretty big problem with officers who abuse the job we pay them to do. We once had a force to be proud of - not anymore I'm sorry to say. And the minimum entry requirements are a total joke. In order to gain recruits standards have been gradually lowered to keep up numbers - that is entirely the wrong way to go about things in my opinion. And many qualified officers feel that the introduction of PCSOs has been a disaster.
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Lindsay D
I am not referring to you in particular but this quote is outrageous and full of sweeping generalizations. Certainly not fact.
 
Photo Plod said:
So what are they?

As a mere DC, I'd love to know what I can aspire to.

Naturally, if your senior friend is abusing his position and receiving unofficial perks, I would be very grateful if you would PM me some details so that I can deal with an allegation of corruption properly.
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:thumbs:
 
Photo Plod said:
So what are they?

As a mere DC, I'd love to know what I can aspire to.

Naturally, if your senior friend is abusing his position and receiving unofficial perks, I would be very grateful if you would PM me some details so that I can deal with an allegation of corruption properly.
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Interesting that you assume my friend stoops to that kind of thing - he doesn't. Please don't pretend you know nothing of what I'm alluding to - the list is endless and I'm in no doubt that you will have seen all if not most of it in your career.

Something major happened 6 years ago and I guess I got the raw end of the stick when it came to 'honest' policing. I can't possibly have that conversation here, it's sensitive and the whole sorry mess is in the past, and what a legacy it has left. You may think my feelings are groundless, or that my comments are off the cuff - unfortunately they are based on experience. Please take that into consideration. I'm reliving a few things right now and I'm clearly becoming upset and emotional (unusual for me) for which I am sorry.

Gone off topic - apologies to the OP.
 
Lindsay D said:
Please don't pretend you know nothing of what I'm alluding to - the list is endless and I'm in no doubt that you will have seen all if not most of it in your career.
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Oh, I'm not denying it - but I'm saying that such things are rare. We have an entire division given over to anti-corruption work. Most forces call them PSD's, but in the Met, ours is the Directorate of Professional Standards - and they are ruthless. They investigate corrupt officers and also those seeking to corrupt officers.

In my time, from my direct experience of what's going on around me, I've known a PC steal drugs from the safe (arrested, charged & convicted after a DPS operation), a recruit deal drugs at Hendon (arrested by fellow student officers), and a Sergeant use her warrant card to try and gain free entry into a nightclub (dismissed after a disciplinary hearing). Other than that, I'm starting to struggle. I hear bits & pieces over the intranet, where we are updated on disciplinary hearings every week, but I prefer to give you *actual* experiences. The biggest freebie I've ever received was a can of coke when purchasing a kebab.

It's certainly not something I - or we, as a force - turn a blind eye to. You can believe that or not. Our professional lives are not filled with freebies that we get by abusing our positions - and anybody that does so can expect to be dealt with harshly.

Lindsay - you may think I'm some sort of fan-boy and can't ever see anything wrong with the police. I note that you haven't been around on the forums very long. Have a look through some of my past postings (you'll see that a great many of them are on police-related subjects) and you'll see that I try to be fair. I know that people quite often receive crap service, and god knows so often I'd like to be able to do more. But when you start firing off, suggesting that I - and my colleagues - are on some corrupt power-trip abuse of the public and laughing all the way to the bank with our perks and rewards, I find it an affront. Most of the people I work with work very hard, all hours of the day and night, trying to make the system work as best they can. They are not corrupt, they are not maniacs and they are actually on your side.

I appreciate you've had a bad experience, but there's nothing I can do to change that. Your opinion is based on experience, and so is mine.
 
Photo Plod said:
Oh, I'm not denying it - but I'm saying that such things are rare. We have an entire division given over to anti-corruption work. Most forces call them PSD's, but in the Met, ours is the Directorate of Professional Standards - and they are ruthless. They investigate corrupt officers and also those seeking to corrupt officers.

In my time, from my direct experience of what's going on around me, I've known a PC steal drugs from the safe (arrested, charged & convicted after a DPS operation), a recruit deal drugs at Hendon (arrested by fellow student officers), and a Sergeant use her warrant card to try and gain free entry into a nightclub (dismissed after a disciplinary hearing). Other than that, I'm starting to struggle. I hear bits & pieces over the intranet, where we are updated on disciplinary hearings every week, but I prefer to give you *actual* experiences. The biggest freebie I've ever received was a can of coke when purchasing a kebab.

It's certainly not something I - or we, as a force - turn a blind eye to. You can believe that or not. Our professional lives are not filled with freebies that we get by abusing our positions - and anybody that does so can expect to be dealt with harshly.

Lindsay - you may think I'm some sort of fan-boy and can't ever see anything wrong with the police. I note that you haven't been around on the forums very long. Have a look through some of my past postings (you'll see that a great many of them are on police-related subjects) and you'll see that I try to be fair. I know that people quite often receive crap service, and god knows so often I'd like to be able to do more. But when you start firing off, suggesting that I - and my colleagues - are on some corrupt power-trip abuse of the public and laughing all the way to the bank with our perks and rewards, I find it an affront. Most of the people I work with work very hard, all hours of the day and night, trying to make the system work as best they can. They are not corrupt, they are not maniacs and they are actually on your side.

I appreciate you've had a bad experience, but there's nothing I can do to change that. Your opinion is based on experience, and so is mine.
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Photo Plod, I can understand that what I say is unpleasant reading for a good officer, I'm sorry for that - I wish I could change what I feel and what I've witnessed. I will do my best to take on board what you're saying, but with respect, I don't think you can imagine what it's like being on the receiving end of poor policing as some readers have, so it's (understandably) hard for you to appreciate the damage that can do. I am coming from one angle, you are coming from a very different one. Unfortunately I believe that these days poor policing is likely to be the norm rather than the exception and I know so many people who feel the same way. If I can restrict myself to those occasions when I've been out with a camera, and an officer of some kind has been in the vicinity, not once have they accepted my right to simply enjoy taking pictures in public. You're aware of the manner in which innocent photographers are routinely treated and I would be astounded if you feel that falls into the realm of good policing, because it does not. Taken as a whole I'm guessing I've had many encounters with the police in my life whilst out and about (in 'normal' circumstances) and I have never committed any crime. Taken as a whole only a couple of those situations were managed reasonably. Not a great record.

I am familiar with some of the Professional Standards processes. In my experience officers who fail the public are usually protected by their colleagues. Perhaps a harder line is taken where perks and bribes are concerned.

For what it's worth, I can see you're trying to be fair and I appreciate it, but you may understand my feelings nonetheless.
 
As the OP am I allowed to wade in and say "enough"? It wasn't my intent to start any arguments - everyone is entitled to their opinions which are formed over the years by experiences good and bad. We're all different, and good job too!

Now, a far more serious matter from my point of view. Having just bought a super Canon 100-400mm L-Series zoom from markblake, before I have chance to fire off a single shot my beloved wife plonks it on her camera, toddles off down the river and guess what?! That bloody Kingfisher hops onto a branch and poses nicely for her ....

IMG_7255.jpg


So, what upsets me more - a bit of intervention from the PCSOs, or my wife using MY new lens to go shoot this little wotsit?!!! :bang:
 
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Bad luck Andy, it was obviously meant to be!!

Well done to your wife, great picture.:clap:
 
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