My first published picture!

I agree with the origianl poster - whose name I have already forgotten (need more Double Wood - Cowasaki, are you reading this!) sorry.

Anyway, it is great to see one of your pictures recognised and used - BUT, I also agree with AWS, or was it AWP? Anyway, whatever his initials, the industry has suffered greatly by people being taken for a ride.

That FREE paper, runs free ads does it - could you run an ad for wedding photography in it for free? I don't think so. It exists for ONE reason and one reason only, to make the publisher money. The publisher (NOT the editor, unless it is the same person) is making money out of taking advantage of other people - most especially the photographers within the papers catchment area.

This is no longer just the local papers, even highly respected magazines have gone down the same route - The Field, britians oldest magazine, now sources most of its pictures from istock - for a couple of dollars. I haven't worked for them for some years, because at one christmas party the ed stood up and said said, "contributors, thanks for a greta year (we had doubled the circulation) you will be pleased to know that you are all getting your rates reduced by 30%. Advertisers, you will pleased to know that your rates are going up by 30%.

True to his word, he cut the contrib rates. In 1986 I was getting £200 a day plus exs, and sometimes a 2 day shoot. That was a weeks wages for many people for one day. Now, that same magazine, despite its success, is paying £100 and you find the xs out of that. Oh really. So you have to go to Scotland and do a grouse moor....won't pay the petrol bill. I haven't worked for them since the rates slipped below what was economic.

Anyway, this is going off the subject - so well done on your published picture, but please be aware of the problems some photographers face. I think there are a few car salesmen in similar situations too though, and probably many in retail sales also worried about their futures.
 
OK so I was being a bit flippant and I heartily sympathise - it's one reason that I won't be trying to make a full-time living from being a photographer when I leave the Army...

Reuters offered me a job in 2006 on the back of a very successful Afghan Tour with the 3 Para Battlegroup - I managed 4 UK Daily front pages and 2 International Daily front pages out of that...along with a slew of inside spreads...
I was very flattered and I asked what the pay would be like - less than a third of my current salary for almost three times the effort and time away from home - err...no thanks...

At my age I want to slow down and smell the 12-yr Malt, thanks very much....
 
Well said - I think many wannabees (I have had no fewer than 6 requests this year for week long work experience placements from pupils wanting to go into photography) have a cameo idea of what running a photography business is like. Nothing like the days of even just 10 years ago.

There are a few making big bucks - but only a handful - and I don't know whether the industry will ever support the number it once did. Papers and magazines are no longer doing proper journalism, they are getting by on PR shots, so pictures provided by the PR companies just to get placement in the pages and websites - OK paid for at time, but the publications are losing credibility because their editorial integrity is compromised. The pictures released are always positive for the company or person involved. The number of truthful and negative ones is going down and down - they are being sensored at source first.

Each generation has a new way of doing things and new outlets for their efforts, in whatever field of operation that is, not just photography. Engineers now make computers and electronics rather than work with lathes and milling machines on large castings....blacksmiths, printers, a whole host of trades and skills have changed.
 
Congratulations, but sorry you have had so many jumping down your neck. Try to enjoy the positive side of this and not let the rest get to you.

I believe there is space for people just getting into photography to give their images for free. Ive given some images away to charities and for educational purposes myself but still managed to be paid for a few other images. I think its each to their own really. We all have our own reasons for what we do.

Many people get great enjoyment out of their photography and to have an image published is an achievement. To call this a cheap thrill is simply being petty. Not everyone wants a career in photography, many enjoy it as a hobby and why not.

With the ever increasing use of computers, internet, editing programs and dslrs together it is not surprising that the industry is changing. I think its just something that both professional and amateur photographers need to accept. Photographs are available very cheap, so companies are going to use them, there is nothing anyone can do to change that. Having a pop at someone for an acheivement does nothing but dampen their spirit, when you should be congratulating them on their efforts.
 
zarozinia said:
Congratulations, but sorry you have had so many jumping down your neck. Try to enjoy the positive side of this and not let the rest get to you.

I believe there is space for people just getting into photography to give their images for free. Ive given some images away to charities and for educational purposes myself but still managed to be paid for a few other images. I think its each to their own really. We all have our own reasons for what we do.

Many people get great enjoyment out of their photography and to have an image published is an achievement. To call this a cheap thrill is simply being petty. Not everyone wants a career in photography, many enjoy it as a hobby and why not.

With the ever increasing use of computers, internet, editing programs and dslrs together it is not surprising that the industry is changing. I think its just something that both professional and amateur photographers need to accept. Photographs are available very cheap, so companies are going to use them, there is nothing anyone can do to change that. Having a pop at someone for an acheivement does nothing but dampen their spirit, when you should be congratulating them on their efforts.
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A PERFECT POST .. Well said!
 
WHAT - like I said in my last two lines of last post. Can't do the quote thing. But here is a copy of what I said:
Each generation has a new way of doing things and new outlets for their efforts, in whatever field of operation that is, not just photography. Engineers now make computers and electronics rather than work with lathes and milling machines on large castings....blacksmiths, printers, a whole host of trades and skills have changed.

Do read posts fully, and understand their meaning first.
 
Lensflare.. I think the last post was reffering to earlier posts and not yours.. I agree with you.. things change.. the smart people change with them..
 
A lot of very interesting arguments coming out on this thread and I had no idea it would turn in this.

Thanks very much for the encouragement everyone, and I wont let the negatives put me off.

I must say there are lots of things to think about here, none of which had crossed my mind.

I am only a hobby photographer, and have no ideas of trying to turn it into a money making scheme, if one day in the future I think my work is good enough, and people want to pay for it then happy days, but the full time pro togs here have nothing to worry about from me.

All the best everyone!
 
D.S. said:
but the full time pro togs here have nothing to worry about from me.
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YES WE HAVE! Go and read all the posts again. It's because people like you are giving your work away that many many newspapaers now no longer pay for ANY pictures - and that reduces the income of many professional photographers. As was said earier in your example - the printer got paid - the editor got paid - the ads were paid for - so why do you consider it right that the photographer should NOT get paid? Amateur photographers are being used and you don't seem to be able to accept that. It effects everyone in the profession every time a picture is used for free.
 
To add to this,I recently shot a fishing comp on my mates res,I picked four of the best,watermarked them and sent them to a fishing mags editor.He replied saying they were great and could he have a dvd of all the images? "Of course" I replied,"How much will you pay me if you use them?", strangely heard nothing else.......:D

Very rarely do I give my stuff away for free,a few charity does and a few for good mates,that is about it.
 
D.S. said:
A lot of very interesting arguments coming out on this thread and I had no idea it would turn in this.

Thanks very much for the encouragement everyone, and I wont let the negatives put me off.

I must say there are lots of things to think about here, none of which had crossed my mind.

I am only a hobby photographer, and have no ideas of trying to turn it into a money making scheme, if one day in the future I think my work is good enough, and people want to pay for it then happy days, but the full time pro togs here have nothing to worry about from me.

All the best everyone!
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I can't say that I've read many of these threads before, but I've certainly never seen one get so spiteful, as quickly :(.

Still, as you rightly say, you're going to get on with enjoying your hobby and not let the hatemail put you off - good attitude :clap:!

I can imagine just how excited you must feel, as I myself will be making a similar post at the end of next week ;). At least now I'm prepared for some of the "sour grapes" which will come with it :D!

Well done, D.S. :thumbs:.
 
You can't justify giving away free stuff just because you are a hobby photographer and don't want to make a career out of it. The whole issue is not about you personally getting paid, it's about the industry. It's not an 'individual decision', you provide your service therefore you should get paid like you would do for anything else.

Just because it's a free paper doesn't mean they won't pay you. Newspapers make their money from advertising, the actual cost of the paper (i.e. what they charge you to buy it) is VERY minimal in the scheme of things. No paper could ever survive solely on the price they charge for it. Free papers don't necessarily have no budget for photos...remember that they are full of advertising which makes them a fortune.

Don't understand why people automatically assume that free papers have no money, just shows no understanding of the industry.

And I will go back to a point that awp said, because he's right - The editor gets paid, the reporter gets paid, the accountants and other staff members all get paid, so why shouldn't the photographer?

And yes, amateur photographers are the biggest threat to the industry because they are so unaware of the damage they cause and are clueless as to how the industry works.
 
awp said:
no-one does DIY for an ego boost! It is NOT the same thing. Amateurs giving pictures away are having a devastating effect on professional photographers but they value a cheap ego boost over anything else. How sad is that? :(
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Ego boost or not the start of the DIY trade in the 50' and 60, had a devastating effect on the small self employed tradesman, but the best survived and still do to this day. there is a enough room for professionals and amateurs in all walks the balance will be found.
 
awp said:
I agree a little with what you say but not every tom, richard and harry fancies themselves as a plumber and goes out doing free plumbing jobs every weekend! :)

see also:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=148387
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Funnily enough, I know somebody that does just that! He loves plumbing.:lol:

I think by now though you have made your position pretty clear.
Congrats to the original poster on getting something in print. Next step. Get some money for the next shot?:thumbs:
 
8utters said:
You can't justify giving away free stuff just because you are a hobby photographer and don't want to make a career out of it. The whole issue is not about you personally getting paid, it's about the industry. It's not an 'individual decision', you provide your service therefore you should get paid like you would do for anything else.

Just because it's a free paper doesn't mean they won't pay you. Newspapers make their money from advertising, the actual cost of the paper (i.e. what they charge you to buy it) is VERY minimal in the scheme of things. No paper could ever survive solely on the price they charge for it. Free papers don't necessarily have no budget for photos...remember that they are full of advertising which makes them a fortune.

Don't understand why people automatically assume that free papers have no money, just shows no understanding of the industry.

And I will go back to a point that awp said, because he's right - The editor gets paid, the reporter gets paid, the accountants and other staff members all get paid, so why shouldn't the photographer?

And yes, amateur photographers are the biggest threat to the industry because they are so unaware of the damage they cause and are clueless as to how the industry works.
Click to expand...

The industry has changed, the value of an image has dropped from hundreds of pounds 30 years ago to nothing today the genie is out of the bottle and you can't put it back no matter how much you want to. The market dictates the price and at the minute the market says that free is the optimal price point. Amatures are not damaging the industry they are changing it in a way you don't like because it reduces your income it's a fact of life like all the people who fix a mates PC for beers killed the home maintenance market.

awp said:
I agree a little with what you say but not every tom, richard and harry fancies themselves as a plumber and goes out doing free plumbing jobs every weekend! :)

see also:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=148387
Click to expand...

Maybe that because one is slightly more difficult than the other and not as enjoyable? It seems that any tom, **** or harry with an entry level DSLR can produce pictures of an acceptable standard for the press to use and are willing to give them away for free. Believe me if the same situation existed in the plumbing world we wouldn't all be taken over a barrel every time the ball valve in the toilet breaks.
 
a1ex2001 said:
The industry has changed, the value of an image has dropped from hundreds of pounds 30 years ago to nothing today the genie is out of the bottle and you can't put it back no matter how much you want to. The market dictates the price and at the minute the market says that free is the optimal price point. Amatures are not damaging the industry they are changing it in a way you don't like because it reduces your income it's a fact of life like all the people who fix a mates PC for beers killed the home maintenance market.



Maybe that because one is slightly more difficult than the other and not as enjoyable? It seems that any tom, **** or harry with an entry level DSLR can produce pictures of an acceptable standard for the press to use and are willing to give them away for free. Believe me if the same situation existed in the plumbing world we wouldn't all be taken over a barrel every time the ball valve in the toilet breaks.
Click to expand...


:thumbs: GOLDEN post!
 
mr bizzare said:
Ego boost or not the start of the DIY trade in the 50' and 60, had a devastating effect on the small self employed tradesman, but the best survived and still do to this day. there is a enough room for professionals and amateurs in all walks the balance will be found.
Click to expand...

Also, a GOLDEN post :D.

Must learn to write these "golden posts" myself, instead of just quoting other people's, one day :thinking:.

;)
 
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