Multiple shootings in Paris

[big soft moose]

They are. It's just that people who are used to such practices, who condone them, practice them can/have come west.

and how many saudi's / people of saudi extraction do we have living in the UK - i bet the answer is not very many

the vast majority of british muslims are from pakistan (or more accurately they are from britain but their parents or grand parents were from pakistan) - and pakistan doesnt actually sanction any such thing ... which is why AQ tend to describe the government in islamabad as an american puppet.

 

[Cobra]

- and also as ghoti said earlier the total uk muslim population is only about 5% of total uk population , so they are outnumbered 19 to 1...

Maybe so. I've not bothered to run that by Google. so I'll take that for now.

But what I do know is, take Luton for example, you drive through there on any given day
and just going on the dress and hair styles, Muslims appear to out number the white indigenous
by something like 10/1.
So while they maybe a small percentage of Muslims v white indigenous they do congregate
in certain area's and this certainly gives the impression that the %'s are much higher.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

They are. It's just that people who are used to such practices, who condone them, practice them can/have come west.

Then we see what we have here. People who's beliefs and behavioural standards are completely at odds and contrary to our own setting up to live here and conspire against us.

Imagine if a global superpower invaded then totally destroyed our country, using made up excuses to do so, whilst illegally kidnapping citizens, interning them without trial and or torturing them. That's only from the past few years. No wonder they are fighting back against their perceived aggressors. Of course these radicals are idiotic fools, but you have to try to understand why they feel that they are defending themselves against a war on Islam. People should focus less on revenge and more on cause and effect. The Spanish, The French, The British et al have suffered the effect. It is time to address the cause.

 

[Peter69]

@andyscott the main issue with the west when looked at from outside is that America and thus the rest of us feel it necessary to get involved in others domestic problems.
We attack countries that we don't like and force western values on them, yet we tolerate countries like Saudi etc with a terrible human rights history. Look how many innocents were killed in the recent conflicts. We support Israel the first and worst religious extremist country bet blame Palestinians that fight the suppression. For a minute change the flag of Israel to a Nazi flag & the Palestinian flag to French - it looks different (sorry stole that from a time to kill court case).

Germany is still a threat. Its kept very quiet but the far right are very strong again.

We should fight intolerance every where but not with violence but by being the better person, show the unfairness & intolerance where ever it is

As for fanning around, we are still doing that in Syria. By being torn between extremists and the regime we allow the extremists to get a hold and spread their support. We should have sided with the regime. You can not negotiate with chaos and the loss of life would have been less.

We should follow France's lead and vote to recognise Palestine and force the Israelis to define their boarders. It a start.

But these are just my believes trying to see things from a distance with no flag.

 

[viv1969]

I'd rather click a posted link than suspend belief trying to decipher epic posts disguised as personal knowledge.

 

[akr]

 

[big soft moose]

Maybe so. I've not bothered to run that by Google. so I'll take that for now.

But what I do know is, take Luton for example, you drive through there on any given day
and just going on the dress and hair styles, Muslims appear to out number the white indigenous
by something like 10/1.
So while they maybe a small percentage of Muslims v white indigenous they do congregate
in certain area's and this certainly gives the impression that the %'s are much higher.

I try an avoid driving through luton if i can - not to do with islam but becauses its an utter armpit

that said while i do get what you mean , I just had a brief google ( I know, enough already) and even the DM says that the islamic community in luton is only 1 in 5 (and thats in an article about the creeping menace of islam) , wikipedia says that the actual percentage is 14.6% so it may be more of a perception than a reality.

Wiki also says that the highest percentage is tower hamlets with 36.4% - so even at their most dense they are still out numbered by nearly 2 to 1

(admittedly the wiki data is from 2001 so it may be a bit out of date - but i'd doubt that its changed by as much as you suggest )

I suspect the perception is because a) they are more noticeable , b) they tend to be in the town centre more because they are hired quite heavily to work in shops etc, and c) we are conditioned by papers like the daily heil to believe that its a massive problem

 

[SFTPhotography]

Imagine if a global superpower invaded then totally destroyed our country, using made up excuses to do so, whilst illegally kidnapping citizens, interning them without trial and or torturing them. That's only from the past few years. No wonder they are fighting back against their perceived aggressors. Of course these radicals are idiotic fools, but you have to try to understand why they feel that they are defending themselves against a war on Islam. People should focus less on revenge and more on cause and effect. The Spanish, The French, The British et al have suffered the effect. It is time to address the cause.

When did we invade Saudi?

 

[big soft moose]

Imagine if a global superpower invaded then totally destroyed our country, using made up excuses to do so, whilst illegally kidnapping citizens, interning them without trial and or torturing them. That's only from the past few years. No wonder they are fighting back against their perceived aggressors. Of course these radicals are idiotic fools, but you have to try to understand why they feel that they are defending themselves against a war on Islam. People should focus less on revenge and more on cause and effect. The Spanish, The French, The British et al have suffered the effect. It is time to address the cause.

this is sort of true - but equally talking of cause an effect if AQ hadnt hijacked a bunch of jets and flown them into the twin towers, the pentagon etc then the americans wouldnt have invaded afgahnistan , if you kick a bear in the arse you've got to expect to get bitten ... and as regards iraq its doubtful that the extremist cared about the fall of the baath regime - they'd spent the last 20 years fighting against it themselves.

IMO the cause is more three fold a) the israel/palestine question , b) the arming of the Muj to fight the russians in the 80s, and c) our addiction to cheap oil ( the reason the gulf states can afford to fund these headcases is because we pay them billions of ponds for the black stuff...)

 

[Cobra]

(admittedly the wiki data is from 2001 so it may be a bit out of date - but i'd doubt that its changed by as much as you suggest )
I suspect the perception is because a) they are more noticeable , b) they tend to be in the town centre more because they are hired quite heavily to work in shops etc, and c) we are conditioned by papers like the daily heil to believe that its a massive problem

I haven't read a newspaper in I don't know how many years.
But I do believe my own eyes.
Besides in 14 years the population could have easily doubled / trebled / and even quadrupled, through births, and imports.
I still would dispute the fact that its only 14 % and stand by my 90% I don't only go to the town
centre I work all over, when I do go there.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

When did we invade Saudi?

I never said we did. I was referring to Iraq. Or maybe you can consider the attempted enforcement of "Western" civilization in Afghanistan. Or maybe you want to consider the apartheid that exists (to the detriment of the Islamic population) in US-sponsored Israel. Or the way we "the West" treat Islamic nations with nuclear aspiration differently to how we coped with Israel's covert nuclear arming. Or, maybe once again you want to consider how we, the "civilized" West razed Islamic Iraq, murdered thousands of Islamic innocents, illegally kidnapped Islamic citizens and tortured some too.
I would never condone barbarity, but we are not the innocent victim you would have us believe.

 

[big soft moose]

Or the way we "the West" treat Islamic nations with nuclear aspiration differently to how we coped with Israel's covert nuclear arming. .

cough, pakistan, cough

 

[viv1969]

cough, pakistan, cough

Is that like a loud sigh?

 

[Ricardodaforce]

cough, pakistan, cough

We all know Pakistan is an established nuclear state. But look at all the US/Israeli sabre-rattling over Iran's nuclear program. On the one hand we turn a blind eye when Israel covertly develops a nuclear arsenal, yet the development of an Iranian nuclear program results in all manner of threats and sanctions. Until the USA treats the Islamic world and Israel, with parity then these issues will continue to trouble us.

 

[Dave *]

I haven't read a newspaper in I don't know how many years.
But I do believe my own eyes.
Besides in 14 years the population could have easily doubled / trebled / and even quadrupled, through births, and imports.
I still would dispute the fact that its only 14 % and stand by my 90% I don't only go to the town
centre I work all over, when I do go there.

Latest statistics on .gov.uk show Luton to have 31.7% community of ALL Asian (and Arab) backgrounds. Asians likely to be Muslim (Pakistani and Bangladeshi and Arab) constitute around 22% of the population.


http://www.neighbourhood.statistics...77&nsjs=true&nsck=false&nssvg=false&nswid=980

 

[big soft moose]

I haven't read a newspaper in I don't know how many years.
But I do believe my own eyes.
Besides in 14 years the population could have easily doubled / trebled / and even quadrupled, through births, and imports.
I still would dispute the fact that its only 14 % and stand by my 90% I don't only go to the town
centre I work all over, when I do go there.

This article, which is the most upto date i can find - says 40,000 muslims in luton (thats up 14,000 since the wiki figures)
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/president-mosque-extremism-hotbed-luton-there-no-islamic-state-1462133

according to the luton town council website current total population is 240,000 (up 40,000 on the wiki figures)

So 40,000 out of 240,000 - if my basic maths doesnt fail me thats 1 in 6 or 16.66 % (or to put it another way out numbered 5 to 1) - I think one other reason it could be percieved as higher is luton also has a fair number of non muslim asians (principally Hindus but also some Budhists), and various other coloured peoples , only 45% of the population descrivbed themselves as white british on the most recent census (the next largest group are white irish, then Black british )

I suspect the 5% disparity between my figures and Daves is because not all pakistanis and bengalis are muslims

 

[dejongj]

well true - but then you can never absolutelty prove a negative - certainly the number known or thought by those that ought to know (like MI5) to support them is a very small proportion of the uk muslim population - and also as ghoti said earlier the total uk muslim population is only about 5% of total uk population , so they are outnumbered 19 to 1... so even if the whole of the UK muslims were in favour strict islamification (which they don't appear to be) the idea of such practices as whippings being ordered by the courts 'spreading here' is hysterical daily mail nonsense

Also as someone mentioned much earler on even AQ and ISIL don't actually sympathise with each other, with a bit of luck they may wind up spending much of their strength on fighting amongst themselves

I wouldn't take those figure too literal albeit I appreciate that is what the say. However the devil is in the detail an definition. For example agreement and support for the methods will be much lower than support for the ideology The methods can be condemned and hands washed clean off it.

 

[big soft moose]

We all know Pakistan is an established nuclear state. But look at all the US/Israeli sabre-rattling over Iran's nuclear program. On the one hand we turn a blind eye when Israel covertly develops a nuclear arsenal, yet the development of an Iranian nuclear program results in all manner of threats and sanctions. Until the USA treats the Islamic world and Israel, with parity then these issues will continue to trouble us.

Actually both pakistan and israel only have atomic arms , and neither has missiles (other than the short flight scud type).

That aside lets face it the reason the west has issues with Iran but not with israel is because Iran is likely to arm all maner of bonkers extremists with fissile or dirty material... Israel is vanishingly unlikely to do so. The chances of Israel using their atomic arms on us are nil... the same can't be said for Iran.

 

[big soft moose]

I wouldn't take those figure too literal albeit I appreciate that is what the say. However the devil is in the detail an definition. For example agreement and support for the methods will be much lower than support for the ideology The methods can be condemned and hands washed clean off it.

didnt some notable islamic cleric/scholar declare a fatwa against terrorism and suicide bombing in 2010 (I shall have to use the verbotten search engine to find out who)

edit : yes they did - from wiki

Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings is a 600-page (Urdu version), 512-page (English version) Islamic decree by scholar Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri which demonstrates from the Quran and Sunnah that terrorism and suicide bombings are unjust and evil, and thus un-Islamic. It was published in London as a book.[1] The English edition was published in the UK by Minhaj-ul-Quran Publications. Qadri released the fatwa on 2 March 2010.[2] This fatwa is a direct refutation of the ideology of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. It is one of the most extensive Islamic anti-terrorism rulings, an "absolute" condemnation of terrorism without "any excuses or pretexts" which goes further than ever and declares that terrorism is kufr under Islamic law.[3] The launch was organised by Minhaj-ul-Quran UK. Qadri said during the launch that "Terrorism is terrorism, violence is violence and it has no place in Islamic teaching and no justification can be provided for it, or any kind of excuses or ifs or buts."

more recently there have been two fatwas declared against ISIL , one by the senior cleric of Saudi aribia and the other by Sheik Abdullah bin Bayyah

 

[Cobra]

according to the luton town council website current total population is 240,000 (up 40,000 on the wiki figures)

And I'm guessing the facts are taken from the electoral roll
I'm still not convinced even at the more recent figures that the indigenous white population are only out numbered 2:1
but its more likely than the original figures quoted.

 

[big soft moose]

And I'm guessing the facts are taken from the electoral roll
I'm still not convinced even at the more recent figures that the indigenous white population are only out numbered 2:1
but its more likely than the original figures quoted.

umm - how did you get that figure - if White british are 45% and the next most populous group are white irish , then the total white population is still in the majority

 

[Cobra]

umm - how did you get that figure - if White british are 45% and the next most populous group are white irish , then the total white population is still in the majority

I was using your post

only 45% of the population descrivbed themselves as white british

 

[big soft moose]

yes but 45% is slightly less than half so they are outnumbered by all other ethnicities combined by 11 to 9- to be outnumbered two to one they'd have to make up ony 33%

also if the white british make up 45% and the muslims make up 16.6% then the White British still outnumber the muslims by nearly 3 to 1

 

[Cobra]

yes but 45% is slightly less than half - to be outnumbered two to one they'd have to make up ony 33%

I know I just wanted to see how far you would argue semantics TBH.
Friday night is fun night in the staff room, and this week I got the long straw to "wind someone up "

 

[viv1969]

I know I just wanted to see how far you would argue semantics TBH.
Friday night is fun night in the staff room, and this week I got the long straw to "wind someone up "

Too easy.

 

[big soft moose]

I know I just wanted to see how far you would argue semantics TBH.

you should know me by now

By the way disputing figures isnt semantics - that would be arguing about the meanings of words - (a bit like this post, and yes I did that deliberately)

 

[Cobra]

you should know me by now

By the way disputing figures isnt semantics - that would be arguing about the meanings of words - (a bit like this post, and yes I did that deliberately)

See they do let us out to play occasionally

 

[ghoti]

And I'm guessing the facts are taken from the electoral roll
I'm still not convinced even at the more recent figures that the indigenous white population are only out numbered 2:1
but its more likely than the original figures quoted.

What counts as "indigenous"? Picts?

 

[Cobra]

What counts as "indigenous"? Picts?

Absolutely

 

[viv1969]

Semantics also relates to the competence of the speaker so @Cobra has the head start to be fair

 

[big soft moose]

Semantics also relates to the competence of the speaker so @Cobra has the head start to be fair

far be it from me to doubt Chris's competence but you are as usual wrong

it only refers to the competence of the speaker with regard to the the interpretation of linguistic structures

 

[dejongj]

didnt some notable islamic cleric/scholar declare a fatwa against terrorism and suicide bombing in 2010 (I shall have to use the verbotten search engine to find out who)

edit : yes they did - from wiki



more recently there have been two fatwas declared against ISIL , one by the senior cleric of Saudi aribia and the other by Sheik Abdullah bin Bayyah

Made a lot of difference then :God:

 

[Cobra]

far be it from me to doubt Chris's competence

We all know I'm perfect that's a given,
its been a fun few minutes but I fear that I have to get back in my Vivarium now (DON'T )
So back on track ...............

 

[dejongj]

Ps. White British does not exclude anyone from also being Muslim

However as I'm from the area I do agree with Cobra, when going through bury park area especially it definitely feels like a Muslim area, everything shops, people, service are geared towards the large local Muslim community. I like the area though, reminds me of several places in the Netherlands. But then again I don't live there. One thing I do know is that there is constant controversies regarding complaints about "western" freedoms like woman on an billboard that show too much neck and stuff like that. Those parts aren't good at all.

 

[viv1969]

far be it from me to doubt Chris's competence but you are as usual wrong

it only refers to the competence of the speaker with regard to the the interpretation of linguistic structures

Copied and pasted from.......

But yes...back on topic.....

 

[dinners]

The Last Leg..........is good tonight.

 

[Mr Bump]

Terrible things happening in France for sure and I have read a few points of view but one keeps getting missed.
We the west are also killing a lot of civilians in these areas of conflict while hunting people we consider the enemy.

Can we then be surprised if these peope do the same?

 

[big soft moose]

Ps. White British does not exclude anyone from also being Muslim
.

indeed - those of bosnian, romanian, and iranian descent might all consider themselves white, and british if born here...(a girl i went out with at school was iranian , although she prefered persian ... her parents had come to the uk in 1979 when the shah fell gfrom power)

 

[dejongj]

Terrible things happening in France for sure and I have read a few points of view but one keeps getting missed.
We the west are also killing a lot of civilians in these areas of conflict while hunting people we consider the enemy.

Can we then be surprised if these peope do the same?

Maybe it is missed because it is not the same not even close

 

[andya700]

Death threat, which amounted to nothing. He's still alive.

Really, a death threat which meant nothing to the 10 members of staff of CharlieHebdo who were all murdered.

Go think about that.