Multiple shootings in Paris

ST4 said:
Sounds a nice progressive place. Imagine that way of life being spread over here.
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I'd have thought you'd be in favour of removing those darned women drivers from the roads... ;)
 
Russ77 said:
I'm not missing any point...... I'm not saying this applies to the vast majority of Muslims, not at all.

Maybe I just need to clarify a little......... my comments should apply to anyone who chooses to go an live in a country where their beliefs/customs/practices confilt with those of the country they've moved to.

My point is that IMO the UK is being too tolerant and has been too tolerant for years....... Take "Mr Hook" (Abu Hamza?), he was allowed to stay in this country for years, preacing hate against western civilisation while time claiming benefits from the country he claims to hate. Perhaps if he'd been sent on his merry way early doors it would have sent a clear message to others like him that they're not welcome and should look elsewhere for a place to live/preach.

Free speech is one thing, stirring up hatred and wishing harm on others is completely another and needs to be dealt with robustly.
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Now that I can get on board with.
Condemn the behaviour irrespective of the religion / nationality etc., and punish accordingly, swiftly, and without exception.
 
ST4 said:
Honour killings, slavery, arranged marriages are quite common place features of their culture (particularly the latter) and wholly incompatible with our way of life. Burkha's are a custom that are at odds with our national security requirements. Halal meat abhorrs many westerns (not me).

More-over when we go to visit their countries we have to adhere to their rules/customs and cannot build churches etc, eat pork blah blah, fair enough, their land, their way of life. We however let them do as they please here?
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Where do I start with this post?

Honour killings etc are common to parts of Asia in various religions - Islam, Sikhs, Hindus, as is slavery and arranged marriages.

Burkhas are common in certain but not all Moslem countries, very often loose clothing and a headscarf is the only reqiuirement.

Some Westerners abhor Halal meat (Halal meat cannot abhor anything - it is dead)

Cannot build churches, eat pork - there are churches and synagogues in a few Moslem countries, and you can get pork to eat, as well as wine and other alcohol to drink (if you must).

On the last point, that we let them do as they please - well that is down to us being a soft touch isn't it?
 
ghoti said:
They all believe in the same God. "God", "Allah", "Yahweh", "Jehovah"...all just different names for the same mythical figure: "The God of Abraham".
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They all share the same prophets (apart from Mohammed) - Abraham (Ibrahim), Noah (Noohr), Jesus (Jesu) Isaac etc.
 
viv1969 said:
Now that I can get on board with.
Condemn the behaviour irrespective of the religion / nationality etc., and punish accordingly, swiftly, and without exception.
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Exactly!!!

The UK is a democratic country, therefore there are set processes on place to push for changes if there's stuff you don't like but it's done.

If the changes don't happen then you can decide to accept it or go and live elsewhere.

Personally I have issues with the way a few things are done in this country, I vote so I have a bit of a say in the matter but ultimately I know I have to put up with them or move to another country, however I think overall the UK way of life is going to be hard to better.

Now bearing that in mind, let's take people who come from 3rd World countries who are happy to claim benefits but also want a "home from home" and go around causing harm and distress to others in the process. It's a bit like having your cake and eating it :lol:

So in direct relation to your quote above, what I am saying is that if there are white British Christians who are causing problems, don't like the way the country is being run and are causing distress to others then they should be invited to leave the country too. Although I think the Jeremy Kyle show would find it hard to get people on his show if you did that :lol:
 
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andy700 said:
Where do I start with this post?

Honour killings etc are common to parts of Asia in various religions - Islam, Sikhs, Hindus, as is slavery and arranged marriages.

Burkhas are common in certain but not all Moslem countries, very often loose clothing and a headscarf is the only reqiuirement.

Some Westerners abhor Halal meat (Halal meat cannot abhor anything - it is dead)

Cannot build churches, eat pork - there are churches and synagogues in a few Moslem countries, and you can get pork to eat, as well as wine and other alcohol to drink (if you must).

On the last point, that we let them do as they please - well that is down to us being a soft touch isn't it?
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Jee...Burkhas are common and a risk to national security. They are a repressive practice. Halal is a commonly critisised by animal rights people and animal cruelty is a big aspect in western society.

Trust me, speaking to my pal who worked out in Saudi, its very oppressive. The equivilent here would be banning mosques, banning halal and banning people changing religion.
 
ST4 said:
Concealed faces, don't know who is under there. I could put one on and commit crimes and no one could intenifty me.

The french outlawed them IIRC for that reason.
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You can do the same with a full face bike helmet.
 
ST4 said:
Jee...Burkhas are common and a risk to national security. They are a repressive practice. Halal is a commonly critisised by animal rights people and animal cruelty is a big aspect in western society.

Trust me, speaking to my pal who worked out in Saudi, its very oppressive. The equivilent here would be banning mosques, banning halal and banning people changing religion.
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Maybe, but do we want a similarly oppressive regime here? If we are saying we don't like that kind of behaviour, then the answer has to be no. As I said earlier, anyone, from any culture, race or religion coming to this country should expect to live by our rules [and I am not totally averse to an insistence that they learn English either, to make their own lives easier], and many, the majority in fact, do so quite happily whilst still managing to adhere to their own beliefs without causing offence or hurt to anyone. Yes, like Russ and Ruth, I am all for swift and firm action on anyone that encourages and incites violence against anyone else, regardless of cultural or religious background, but we would also be a much poorer country on every level if we didn't have the multi-culturalism we have.

The bhurka is a divisive argument unfortunately, as someone said, it isn't necessarily a religious demand, many don't wear it whilst staying true to the same core beliefs as those that do. Some wear it because they actually want to, some because they are forced to. I don't hold with them being a risk to national security per se and there is little evidence to actually support that but I can see how they could be used in that way and may be so more and more in the future. The French made them illegal, but until yesterday the general opinion was that it wasn't a law that was being either adhered to or particularly policed... albeit that may now change.
 
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ST4 said:
Concealed faces, don't know who is under there. I could put one on and commit crimes and no one could intenifty me.
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Anyone could wear a balaclava or wrap a scarf around their face or wear a rubber mask or even a crash helmet. True, you can't identify them with it on but unless you know what they look like, you couldn't identify them without it either.

It's hardly a risk to national security.


Steve.
 
ST4 said:
Concealed faces, don't know who is under there. I could put one on and commit crimes and no one could intenifty me.

The french outlawed them IIRC for that reason.
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the french are morons (in that respect)

How is it different from a balaclava, a ski mask, a motorbike helmet, a wooly hat and scarf, one of those parkas with the big zip up hood ... other than it being worn by muslims ?

You might as well ban the wearing of gloves because it stops the police getting finger prints
 
and saudi - its quite oppressive of its own people (and palestinian migrant workers are practically second class citizens - this being a direct consequence of the PLO sideing with sad man insane in '91 ) - however it is not at all oppresive of western workers. (apart from reqiring them not to be publically drunk , and the thing about women driving)

I'd actually urge you, steve, to go visit - you'd probably quite like it, theres lots of dead straight roads for fast driving, theres no public drunkeness or junkies etc, and the streets are a shed load safer than they are here. (admittedly its difficult to go as a tourist unless you have relatives living there, but if you get a chance to go you definitely should).
 
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Byker28i said:
Yup - try wearing one in a petrol station
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As i mentioned further up this morning on my way to work i was wearing a watch cap over the upper part of my face, a buff over my mouth, and reflective wrap arrounds - I both filled the car up with petrol and dropped in at a bank without there being any problems at all
 
Steve Smith said:
Anyone could wear a balaclava or wrap a scarf around their face or wear a rubber mask or even a crash helmet. True, you can't identify them with it on but unless you know what they look like, you couldn't identify them without it either.
It's hardly a risk to national security. Steve.
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As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong,
If asked by a police officer ( @Bernie174 ? ) you have to uncover your face.

People wearing the burka would refuse on religious and cultural grounds I'm sure.
Which then makes I'ding impossible.
There has been at least one terrorist that escaped from a Mosque (Male) wearing just that.
 
ST4 said:
Halal is a commonly critisised by animal rights people and animal cruelty is a big aspect in western society.
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would you, and those animal rights people agree that its misplaced to be concerned about how an animal spends it's last few moments and not the whole of its life
 
Cobra said:
As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong,
If asked by a police officer ( @Bernie174 ? ) you have to uncover your face.

People wearing the burka would refuse on religious and cultural grounds I'm sure.
Which then makes I'ding impossible.
There has been at least one terrorist that escaped from a Mosque (Male) wearing just that.
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can you refuse to obey a police officer on religious or cultural grounds ( I mean i know you can - just as i can say f*** off i'm not taking my scarf off - i mean can you legally) ?
 
Cobra said:
As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong,
If asked by a police officer ( @Bernie174 ? ) you have to uncover your face.

People wearing the burka would refuse on religious and cultural grounds I'm sure.
Which then makes I'ding impossible
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Not sure about the legal aspect but if I was to walk down the street with a balaclava on and a police officer asked me to remove it, how would he identify me if he doesn't know who I am or what I look like?

big soft moose said:
As i mentioned further up this morning on my way to work i was wearing a watch cap over the upper part of my face, a buff over my mouth, and reflective wrap arrounds - I both filled the car up with petrol and dropped in at a bank without there being any problems at all
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And those aren't laws, they are requests by the business owners.


Steve.
 
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boyfalldown said:
would you, and those animal rights people agree that its misplaced to be concerned about how an animal spends it's last few moments and not the whole of its life
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In fairness, most of those animals rights people ARE concerned with the entire life cycle of the animal.... can't speak for Steve though ;)
 
big soft moose said:
can you refuse to obey a police officer on religious or cultural grounds ( I mean i know you can - just as i can say f*** off i'm not taking my scarf off - i mean can you legally) ?
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Imagine that outrage if the police arrested a Muslim Burkha wearing women for refusing to identify themselves.
 
also if he got away how do they know he escaped by wearing a burka ? (if its the guy i'm thinking of didnt he also cut off an ankle bracelet tracer ... which offers more pressing questions about why that was possible and also what the hell a suspected terrorist was doing wandering about on bail in the first place)
 
ST4 said:
Imagine that outrage if the police arrested a Muslim Burkha wearing women for refusing to identify themselves.
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hearing them speak should be sufficient to rule out the disguised male terror suspect
 
big soft moose said:
can you refuse to obey a police officer on religious or cultural grounds ( I mean i know you can - just as i can say f*** off i'm not taking my scarf off - i mean can you legally) ?
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Steve Smith said:
Not sure about the legal aspect but if I was to walk down the street with a balaclava on and a police officer asked me to remove it, how would he identify me if he doesn't know who I am or what I look like? Steve.
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But that's the point I'm making, if you were asked to remove a balaclava, surely you would?
The buzz word of course would be in the interests of national security.
Therefore if an officer of the law were to ask someone to remove a Burka, so they could be "identified"
ie I saw a purple youth fire bombing a litter bin, I want to make sure that you are not that purple youth.
You know full well they wouldn't.
On the grounds or human right religion or any other buzz word thats in use these days.
So while the risk to national security is minimal any normal person would be happy to help the
police with their enquiries surely?
 
big soft moose said:
also if he got away how do they know he escaped by wearing a burka ? (if its the guy i'm thinking of didnt he also cut off an ankle bracelet tracer ... which offers more pressing questions about why that was possible and also what the hell a suspected terrorist was doing wandering about on bail in the first place)
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Not sure if we are talking about the same guy or not, but apparently is easy to remove a tag,
and re attach it.
There was a programme about it ages ago, where a guy regularly took his off, attach it to his dog and go down the
pub / whatever. But that's a different thread entirely

The papers / BBC report
The 27-year-old Somalian, was last seen dressed in a burka leaving the An-Noor Masjid mosque in Acton, West London last Friday.
So someone saw him change I assume.
 
ST4 said:
Can females not be terrorists too. Frenchies have it right IMHO
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to be honest its not that likely as 99% of the extremist nutters think that women are only good for three things (you get female palestinian terrorists , but hamas/fatah etc arent the same sort of nutter as AQ/ISIL) - almost all the shaheed are male. However that aside chris was discussing a specific incident in which a male terror suspect evaded police by wearing a burka

If we are talking in general its a daft argument because a terr who wants to avoid notice doesnt achieve it by cross dressing in islamic traditional dress - they'd be far less suspected if smartly dressed in a business suit, with their semtex/machine pistol in a briefcase
 
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big soft moose said:
to be honest its not that likely as 99% of the extremist nutters think that women are only good for three things (you get female palestinian terrorists , but hamas/fatah etc arent the same sort of nutter as AQ/ISIL) - almost all the shaheed are male. However that aside chris was discussing a specific incident in which a male terror suspect evaded police by wearing a burka

If we are talking in general its a daft argument because a terr who wants to avoid notice doesnt achieve it by cross dressing in islamic traditional dress - they'd be far less suspected if smartly dressed in a business suit, with their semtex/machine pistol in a briefcase
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Probably, but nevertheless the French saw fit to ban it. Burkhas cause many to feel ill at ease and for the well being of the local French population they were banned. France is also secular and doesn't want religious customs to get in the way of day to day life so used the law to obstruct foreign religious practices in a fair and legal way.

Whats not to like?
 
ST4 said:
Probably, but nevertheless the French saw fit to ban it. Burkhas cause many paranoid or racist idiots to feel ill at ease and for the well being of the local French population they were banned. ?
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FTFY

Many racists feel uneasy about black people - does that mean we should insititute apartheid
 
big soft moose said:
FTFY

Many racists feel uneasy about black people - does that mean we should insititute apartheid
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Epic trolling. If Burkhas are an islamic custom, and islam a religion and not a race, how can being uneasy about burkhas be racism.

I don't see the relevence about black people to this thread, did you find them in google?
 
archangel said:
They are not allowed to men directly so you can forget that train of thought
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i dunno where you got that from - islamic women can speak to men in public
 
ST4 said:
Imagine that outrage if the police arrested a Muslim Burkha wearing women for refusing to identify themselves.
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You have a right not to give your identity details unless arrested. And not giving the details is not a reason for arrest.


Steve.
 
ST4 said:
Epic trolling. If Burkhas are an islamic custom, and islam a religion and not a race, how can being uneasy about burkhas be racism.

I don't see the relevence about black people to this thread, did you find them in google?
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Now you are just splitting hairs - most of the Muslims in this country are brown or olive skinned (excepting bosnians, some iranians and the occasional convert), also 'racism' is short hand for discrimination / predjudice against people who are culturally different ... if you want to be pernicketty then i guess we could say 'regligionist' , but generally 'ignorant and predjudiced' covers all bases.

And the relevance to Black people - you said burkhas should be banned because people are nervous of them ... I said that many ignorant and predjudiced people are also nervous of black people ( I could have equally said gay people or many other groups the ignorant and predjudiced are ignorant of and predjudiced about ) ... should we ban everything that anyone might be nervous of ? - or maybe we could just expect people not to be ignorant and predjudiced, and to generally get a grip ?

Also talking of trolling, the constant harping about google is boring, tedious, and predictable ... C minus must try harder. (Its also deeply ironic coming from someone who starts a massive number of threads with a web link and nothing else)
 
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