Multiple shootings in Paris

ST4 said:
Oh I know...and when we look at the conduct in the name of Judiasm in Palestine you will see the fanatics of that religion are no better.
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fanatics of any religion (or political faction) are no better - look at some of the fundamentalist christian nut cases you get bombing abortion clinics and such - not to mention that the KKK were alledgedly christian , despite being in favour of slavery and suppresion of anyone not aryan.

extremists generally are dangerous
 
big soft moose said:
look at some of the fundamentalist christian nut cases you get bombing abortion clinics and such - not to mention that the KKK were alledgedly christian , despite being in favour of slavery and suppresion of anyone not aryan.
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The difference is that when we were being bombed by the IRA or Christian nutcases or when people get killed by the KKK, no one condems the whole of the Christian faith as terrorists as they do for muslims.

There are about 1.6 billion muslims in the world. It's hard to believe that they could all be terrorists!


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
The difference is that when we were being bombed by the IRA or Christian nutcases or when people get killed by the KKK, no one condems the whole of the Christian faith as terrorists as they do for muslims.

There are about 1.6 billion muslims in the world. It's hard to believe that they could all be terrorists!


Steve.
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No...and no-one is.

What people are saying, when you are in a christian/western country, Muslims are a minority and their hardline customs are contrary to what we deem acceptable in our lands. They either need to adapt or leave if they do not like our ways.
 
My point wasn't when the 10 commandments were allegedly handed down, mostly because I don't believe they ever were the word of a God/Deity or other entity non human, any more than I believe some aquatic tart slung a sword to King Arthur.

The point is that however they were arrived at, the concept was adopted by Christianity, and are the basis of much of common law, along with many other Christian beliefs. So is a valid answer to the question about what laws are based on Christianity.

An eye for an eye, another apparently Christian concept, isn't justice when it happens without due process. Even IS have a pretend trial. But while I see your point and part of me agrees, it wouldn't help, the mindset is that they have done something 'glorious' and for their 'God', because it is 'his will'. Killing them wont deter or punish, and in reality will simply be used to egg more of the same on by confirming in their minds the idea of martyrdom.

Treating terrorists like criminals is a better way, France doesn't have a death sentence, so life, meaning life is a far better way of dealing with it.
 
I read somewhere ( i forget where) that MI5 think that there are about a thousand potential islamic terrorists in the UK - while that isnt good its significantly less than the number of potential catholic or protestant terrorists in ulster during the troubles
 
ST4 said:
What people are saying, when you are in a christian/western country, Muslims are a minority and their hardline customs are contrary to what we deem acceptable in our lands. They either need to adapt or leave if they do not like our ways.
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do you actually know what their customs are ? Have you read the Quaran or had it it explained to you by an Imam? ... or are you just basing on D/M etc as usual ?
 
I read somewhere ( i forget where) that MI5 think that there are about a thousand potential islamic terrorists in the UK - while that isnt good its significantly less than the number of potential catholic or protestant terrorists in ulster during the troubles
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It isn't actually, its considerably more.

Also, the IRA and Unionist groups were towards the end riddled with informants, which is another difference. Lastly, both groups in Ireland had very few that were so committed they were prepared to die for the cause. In fact is debatable if any were really that much catholic or protestant.
 
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Bernie174 said:
It isn't actually, its considerably more.
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I would also question how many during the troubles were prepared to commit suicide for the cause. Many people have gone to war knowing they may die whilst actually wanting to avoid it if at all possible, but the willingness of the extremists to actually die in this 'campaign' puts it onto a whole new psychological level. I am not sure yesterdays suspects are in that same mind set, the consensus is that they were well trained operatives who whilst knowing they may die, would prefer to stay alive and use that training again. Just as an outsider looking in, it simply demonstrates that there are multi levels of fighters in this war.
 
I'd agree with Steve, certainly in the US, although I think less so in the UK, there is a school of thought amongst some that all Muslims are terrorists. That's probably partly down to the US being in large parts isolationist, and people have very little idea what happens outside the US, or in fact where anything is!
Also, I have long held the belief that the Quaran and the Bible are probably from the same origin. Differences seem to be more to do with branched off telling of the stories and translations multiple times to different languages.
 
ST4 said:
Yes. I've seen what some of them do. It's no secret. You can google it, I am sure you are proficient at using google.
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Perhaps you could explain which of these customs are incompatiblewith our way of life (noting that Forced mariage and slavery are neither islamic customs or unique to a minority of the islamic community)
 
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Yv said:
I would also question how many during the troubles were prepared to commit suicide for the cause..
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May be not (the catholic church hold suicide to be a mortal sin) - but theres not a great deal of practical difference in application whether a bomb on a tube train is in a suicide vest or in a bag under the seat - boths sides in the troubles demonstrated wilingess to attack civilians to make their point
 
Steve Smith said:
Much of it looks similar to the bible.


Steve.
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Indeed - the bible is used as a religious text in Islam. Jews, Muslims and Christians are all "people of the book" and a true muslim would not hold the other two to be infidels - that tag was supposed to be reserved for those who don't worship the 'one god'
 
big soft moose said:
Perhaps you could explain which of these customs are incompatiblewith our way of life (noting that Forced mariage and lavery are neither islamic customs or unique to a minority of the islamic community)
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Honour killings, slavery, arranged marriages are quite common place features of their culture (particularly the latter) and wholly incompatible with our way of life. Burkha's are a custom that are at odds with our national security requirements. Halal meat abhorrs many westerns (not me).

More-over when we go to visit their countries we have to adhere to their rules/customs and cannot build churches etc, eat pork blah blah, fair enough, their land, their way of life. We however let them do as they please here?
 
so as a UK born white guy, if i converted to islam tomorrow i should not be able to practice any of the ways of my faith in a building devoted to it?

doesnt sound fair to me.
 
Bernie174 said:
Also, I have long held the belief that the Quaran and the Bible are probably from the same origin. Differences seem to be more to do with branched off telling of the stories and translations multiple times to different languages.
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They ARE from the same origin. Nobody disputes this. Islam accepts the majority of the bible on at least a historical level (less so on a theological level). They also believe in the events that make up the Torah (Judaism). In fact, they're fundamental to Islamic faith. The basic difference is that Jews see the Old Testament (Torah) as the last revelation of God. The Christians see the new testament as the last revelation (but accept the Torah). And Muslims see the Koran as the last revelation (but accept the Torah and New Testament).

You could say Islam is like "Part 3" in a trilogy.

Part 1: Judaism (Torah/Old Testament)
Part 2: Christianity (Bible/New Testament)
Part 3: Islam (The Koran)

They all believe in the same God. "God", "Allah", "Yahweh", "Jehovah"...all just different names for the same mythical figure: "The God of Abraham".
 
ST4 said:
Honour killings, slavery, arranged marriages are quite common place features of their culture (particularly the latter) and wholly incompatible with our way of life. Burkha's are a custom that are at odds with our national security requirements. Halal meat abhorrs many westerns (not me).
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Honour killing - not an islamic custom - practiced only by a minority, and indeed also found in other cultures including some christian ones
Slavery - ditto, already discussed
arranged marriages - again cultural rather than religious, also common in some forms of judaism, hinduism, christianity
Burkhas - how are they at odds with national security requirements ? Anymore than say wearing a bike helmet - some don't like them on grounds of discrimination against women - but my feeling on that is so long as the woman chooses to wear it then thats her choice
Halal meat - and the practices in many standard slaughter houses arent much to write home about

ST4 said:
More-over when we go to visit their countries we have to adhere to their rules/customs and cannot build churches etc, eat pork blah blah, fair enough, their land, their way of life. We however let them do as they please here?
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have you ever been to an islamic country ? I think you'll find that some have westerners hotels where you can eat what you wish and drink alcohol if you chose, and even those that don't apart from some head case regimes , have churches

on the whole you've effectively demostrated that you know jacks*** about the customs of islam - as opposed to the cultures of some minorities who happen to be islamic, and are indeed basing on the same sort of garbage you reasd in the daily heil
 
ST4 said:
Reverse that scenario, and you'd get possibly killed in an Islamic country never mind a church.
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but we're in a modern (so called) civilised society that should be open to diverse faiths.

should we also ban the other religions and their ways and places of worship? budism? jewdism (GODWIN!)? hindu? no because like islam the majority are normal peaceful people.
 
neil_g said:
so as a UK born white guy, if i converted to islam tomorrow i should not be able to practice any of the ways of my faith in a building devoted to it?

doesnt sound fair to me.
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Anyone of any religion should be able to practice the ways of their faith in whatever country they reside, provided that doesn't contravene the laws of that country or cause harm or suffering.

I think the term to best fit this would be "when in Rome".

If you find yourself in a country where there are laws that prohibit some or all of your religious practices you have two choices, either move to a country which has laws/beliefs more aligned to your own OR change your practices to fit in with that country.

What I constantly see is people of various religions/faiths who go to live in other countries and want to change the laws and practices of that country and that (IMO) is where the trouble lies. It's simply unreasonable to expect that to happen.

As ST4 says, if a westerner of Christian belief went to an Islamic state, merely practicing their religion would have serious consequencies....... let alone opening up a church, burger joint or a pub. Now translate that to what happens in this country.... we openly allow Muslims to build mosques and worship (absolutely fine by me), there are Halal shops (don't particularly like the idea of Halal but it's not harming me directly so crack on) but when a Muslim woman makes a complaint on a bus about a kid with a Peppa Pig doll (story in the media a few months back) or you have Sharia Law/Justice being carried out on the streets of some town/cities, that's just a step too far and we need (as a nation) to stamp all over it.
 
big soft moose said:
on the whole you've effectively demostrated that you know jacks*** about the customs of islam - as opposed to the cultures of some minorities who happen to be islamic, and are indeed basing on the same sort of garbage you reasd in the daily heil
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Yes, I think Mr ST4 gets most of his information from the Daily Mail's regular What to Think guides which they print daily. Possibly embellished by the comments section of the BBC's Have Your Say website (which is often quite hilarious!).


Steve.
 
Russ77 said:
As ST4 says, if a westerner of Christian belief went to an Islamic state, merely practicing their religion would have serious consequencies....... .
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no it really wouldn't - in all but a couple of head case regimes they'd be able to attend a christian church openly without any consequence at all. Where problems might occur would be if someone of islamic birth wanted to convert to christianity - because Islam doesn't accept that you can convert away from the faith without commiting heresy - however that is also true of many christian countries ... how well would it go down in small town america if one of the towns staunch baptists decided to convert to islam ?
 
big soft moose said:
Burkhas - how are they at odds with national security requirements ? Anymore than say wearing a bike helmet - some don't like them on grounds of discrimination against women - but my feeling on that is so long as the woman chooses to wear it then thats her choice
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My muslim friend informed me that it is not a requirement to wear a Burka but some choose so as a cultural choice? but it does concern me as I feel it is not necessary to hide your face......I wonder what would happen if I walked into a bank, airport or government building wearing a Balaclava....... and I couldn't choose to wear a balaclava in public because i will be targeted as a threat..........
 
Steve Smith said:
Yes, I think Mr ST4 gets most of his information from the Daily Mail's regular What to Think guides which they print daily. Possibly embellished by the comments section of the BBC's Have Your Say website (which is often quite hilarious!).


Steve.
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I have read all of this thread and was pleased that it appeared to be debated in a mature way sadly your comment has diminished this.
 
Russ77 said:
you have Sharia Law/Justice being carried out on the streets of some town/cities
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Nonsense.
The reality is that some individuals are allowed to settle civil disputes according to Islamic law with the consent of both parties. If one party disagrees, conventional civil law obviously takes precedence.
 
archangel said:
and I couldn't choose to wear a balaclava in public because i will be targeted as a threat..........
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depends on both the degree of paranoia and the weather - this morning i was wearing a watch cap pulled down over my ears, a buff pulled up over my nose and mouth , and a pair of oakley wrap arrounds. (it was f***in freezing) To all practical purposes I probably had less skin on display than a woman in a burkha
 
neil_g said:
but we're in a modern (so called) civilised society that should be open to diverse faiths.

.
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And they aren't by extension, and when they ways spread west this is what happens. We need to toughen up and lose the wishy washy liberal approach. These are western lands, derived from christian customs, not islamic ones.
 
big soft moose said:
depends on both the degree of paranoia and the weather - this morning i was wearing a watch cap pulled down over my ears, a buff pulled up over my nose and mouth , and a pair of oakley wrap arrounds. (it was f***in freezing) To all practical purposes I probably had less skin on display than a woman in a burkha
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but you done this on necessity and it was temporary measure, whereas a Burkha is always worn in public, and yes Paranoia has a part to play but in todays society there is no need to cover your face....... The mainland should follow Northern Irelands lead and make it an arrestable offence to deliberately cover you face in public to hide your identity......
 
big soft moose said:
- but my feeling on that is so long as the woman chooses to wear it then thats her choice
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But that's a concern, of many, you have no idea whether of not that is a female under the "Garb"
and indeed there was at least one case fairly recently, where a terrorist disappeared wearing such an item

big soft moose said:
on the whole you've effectively demostrated that you know jacks*** about the customs of islam - as opposed to the cultures of some minorities who happen to be islamic, and are indeed basing on the same sort of garbage you reasd in the daily heil
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I'm only going to say this once in here,
keep it polite, attack the post not the poster.
Its a great thread and it'd be a shame if it were to be shut down,
due to trolling and or bad manners
 
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archangel said:
but you done this on necessity and it was temporary measure, whereas a Burkha is always worn in public, and yes Paranoia has a part to play but in todays society there is no need to cover your face....... The mainland should follow Northern Irelands lead and make it an arrestable offence to deliberately cover you face in public to hide your identity......
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And exactly which terrorist attacks in the UK would this measure have prevented?
 
ST4 said:
. These are western lands, derived from christian customs, not islamic ones.
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so you arent welcome here if you arent a christian ? a great number of aethesists will be in the s*** then
 
ST4 said:
And they aren't by extension, and when they ways spread west this is what happens. We need to toughen up and lose the wishy washy liberal approach. These are western lands, derived from christian customs, not islamic ones.
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you could argue that the middle east isnt as developed (for the want of a better word) as the "west". that does not mean we should drop to that level.

absolutely nothing to do with being wishy washy or liberal.
 
ST4 said:
And they aren't by extension, and when they ways spread west this is what happens. We need to toughen up and lose the wishy washy liberal approach. These are western lands, derived from christian customs, not islamic ones.
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Is that like a local shop, for local people?
Come one Steve, the world doesn't run that way anymore.
There are people of all backgrounds and ethnicities mixing happily all over the world.
It's that continued diversity that will eventually lead to humans wising up and abandoning the religious fairytales. IMO.
 
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