Multiple shootings in Paris

viv1969 said:
Yes.....I particularly love this peaceful, loving little nugget from Ex 22:20: Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the lord must be destroyed.
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Sorry I didn't realise that Exodus was written after Christ.
 
gramps said:
Sorry I didn't realise that Exodus was written after Christ.
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I never said it was, did I?....Looking...Looking....Nope.
It's part of the rule book though.
 
Most likely based on ideals from before the time Christianity arrived here.
Things like not stealing and murdering are quite basic and didn't need Christianity to tell us they were wrong.
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Common Law only started to develop after we became a Christian Country. Both Theft and Murder were or are still offences at Common Law, and although yes, they are things that should be basic standards of human behaviour, the fact is that the basis in law is the 10 commandments, as are the other offences. So your question has been answered, what laws are based on Christianity, much of common law is.
 
cambsno said:
Without sounding childish, didn't the war on islam only start AFTER 9/11?
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Probably started at the time of the Crusades, but has beeen inflammed from time to time along the way.
 
French policeman executed yesterday was a Muslim.
The 42-year-old Ahmed Merabet was shot at point-blank range despite apparently pleading for mercy
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Alan Dershowitz ( American Lawyer) once was quoted saying "The threat or fear of violence should not become an excuse or justification for restricting freedom of speech."
 
daugirdas said:
because it is time to stop this political "correctness" b******t. We are not allowed to say anything against another religion or culture, even if it is funny or in a light context as an innocent joke. Probably Monty Python would be illegal today. We are afraid to touch these radicals overtaking our schools in Birmingham and London. Yet when someone wears a cross or talks about christianity can be told of for being intolerant to some pigs or be even fired from work. f*****g madness and here are the results. Enjoy.
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And you should see the terms we have to adhere to if we live and work in an Islamic country. Fair enough, their country, their rules, their customs, their religion...however that doesn't apply here alas.
 
daugirdas said:
I hope you are very wrong there. European culture, legal system and moral values are all built upon christianity. It will be a cold day in hell when that ceases to be true. There is already a strong support for Sharia law across several parts of this country and God forbid they get the upper hand.
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Exactly, Christian customs are not to keep slaves, not to have honour killings, not to have arranged marriages, not to have halal meat...these are all customs that can be seen in Islamic countries and are completely at odds with western customs, traditions and law.
 
Policewoman in 2nd attack has died :(
 
big soft moose said:
on the whole they didn't - it was their parents who came to the west largely for a better life (and lets not forget that pakistan was part of the empire/commonwealth , and we invited them while suffering a chronic skills shortage after the war). Thier children and grandchildren have however become disaffected and ripe for recruitment by extremists .. ironically this is partly because the influence of western values weaking the grip of their prents and traditional values, and also of western innovations such as the internet
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Maybe, so this proves that when people immigrate in they don't all assimilate if they come from a culture so radically different to the culture of their domicile. My view is, if they hate it here so much, they can leave?
 
ST4 said:
Not for a very long time, nor have we married off 9yr old girls in recent memory...nor do christian parents/siblings kill their family if they don't marry the person who the family picks.
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What has time got to do with it? You claimed that slavery was not allowed by Christian beliefs but it was for a very long time.

"In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens (antiquated term referring to Muslims), pagans and any other unbelievers" to perpetual slavery, legitimizing the slave trade as a result of war"

From the Wikipedia article on slavery.


Steve.
 
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Steve Smith said:
What has time got to do with it? You claimed that slavery was not allowed by Christian beliefs but it was for a very long time.

"In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens (antiquated term referring to Muslims), pagans and any other unbelievers" to perpetual slavery, legitimizing the slave trade as a result of war"

From the Wikipedia article on slavery.


Steve.
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Indeed, given Islam is said to be historically some 600 years younger as a religion, wonder what the Christians were up to and doing to each other and none believers 600 years ago?

I do agree with Steve though in some ways, I cannot comprehend of wanting to emigrate to another country and not wanting to assimilate, not wanting to learn the language and not wanting to accept their laws and tenets. If my own beliefs or culture are contradictory, then I would want to adapt [as in fairness, the large and silent majority of Muslims have] or chose somewhere more complimentary to those beliefs.
 
I found this piece of writing by Jane Caro...... I am not saying that everyone should drop their religious belief as we live in a free world of choice and opinion but it does make interesting reading.....

As 14 year-old Malala Yousafzai sat on a bus in the grounds of her school in Pakistan's Swat Valley, a gunman shot her in the head. After proudly claiming responsibility, the Taliban told the world that the teenage education activist's work represented "a new chapter of obscenity, and we have to finish this chapter". The "obscenity" was the education of girls.
The Taliban felt no shame. They know that what they have done is right because their god tells them so. Gods have been used to justify almost any cruelty, from burning heretics and stoning adulterers to crucifying Jesus himself.

On the other side of the world, Anders Behring Breivik slaughtered 77 Norwegians. Breivik seems to have seen his murderous spree as a way of getting rid of Muslims, yet his 1,500-page manifesto revealed, at best, a weak attachment to religious belief. To Breivik, Christianity seems important mainly because he sees it as white. Breivik, like the devoutly religious Taliban, also appears to feel no shame.

The men who flew planes into buildings on 9/11, the Pakistanis who went on a murderous rampage in Mumbai and the Bali bombers, all killed as many people as they could in the name of their religion. Breivik did it in the name of his race. Timothy McVeigh, who killed 168 people and wounded 800, hated the government. All saw their mass murder as a political act of protest and all felt justified.

Atheists like Mao or Pol Pot have murdered millions in the name of political totalitarianism. Hitler used a quasi-mystical racist philosophy to exploit the ancient hatred of the Jews by Christians. I heard somewhere (I've never been able to discover where) that terrorism occurs when you combine a sense of military and economic inferiority with a sense of moral superiority. Religion is very good at conferring a sense of moral superiority on its followers.

Indeed, while the religious have murdered throughout history in the name of their god, I've been unable to find any evidence of atheists killing anyone in the name of atheism. Atheists are no more or less capable of evil than anyone else, but it seems that murder, particularly mass murder and war, is a sin of commission. In other words, human beings are generally only prepared to fight and kill in the name of something. It can be a god, but it can also be a political philosophy – like nazism or communism. Many fight for patriotism: for country, tribe or race. Some kill because they're psychologically disturbed, but none – so far – in the name of atheism.

So, while I don't agree that only religion causes conflict, I'd argue that all mass murder and war are fought in the name of a bigger-than-self philosophy or idea. Atheism, simply lack of belief in a god, has not yet proved compelling enough to motivate murder. So far no one has gone into a crowded public space and blown themselves up while shouting, "No god is great!"..................................
 
archangel said:
<snip>
Indeed, while the religious have murdered throughout history in the name of their god, I've been unable to find any evidence of atheists killing anyone in the name of atheism <snip> [/QUOTE]
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Amen!!;)
 
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Steve Smith said:
What has time got to do with it? You claimed that slavery was not allowed by Christian beliefs but it was for a very long time.

"In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens (antiquated term referring to Muslims), pagans and any other unbelievers" to perpetual slavery, legitimizing the slave trade as a result of war"

From the Wikipedia article on slavery.


Steve.
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I'll make it simple. What religious group other than Islam keeps slaves in the 21st century. What religion has a faction that deems marriage to children acceptable?
 
archangel said:
I
Indeed, while the religious have murdered throughout history in the name of their god, I've been unable to find any evidence of atheists killing anyone in the name of atheism. Atheists are no more or less capable of evil than anyone else, but it seems that murder, particularly mass murder and war, is a sin of commission. In other words, human beings are generally only prepared to fight and kill in the name of something. It can be a god, but it can also be a political philosophy – like nazism or communism. Many fight for patriotism: for country, tribe or race. Some kill because they're psychologically disturbed, but none – so far – in the name of atheism.
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an aside. But Stalin was quite good at killing for just that

During his time in power, Stalin had a complex relationship with religion. He officially adopted the Russian Communist Party’s stance on religion, claiming atheism and continuing the tradition of teaching atheism in schools and propagating the idea that religion was only damaging to a perfect communist society. Stalin even took it further than his predecessor, Lenin, and initiated a nationwide campaign to destroy churches and religious property and even persecute and kill church officials.3 It is said that under Stalin, the Russian Orthodox Church went from 50,000 to 500 open and operating churches
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Its actually kind of hard to find a religiously motivated major war, that can't seriously be demonstrated was about something else, in the last 200 years. Made you could name a couple?
 
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ST4 said:
I'll make it simple. What religious group other than Islam keeps slaves in the 21st century?
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"…but human trafficking happens in almost every country in the world.
  • Modern day slavery affects every continent and every type of economy. (UN.GIFT)
  • It is estimated that between 600,000 and 800,000 people are trafficked across international borders every year. (U.S. Department of State, Trafficking in Persons Report 2005)"
"
  • Out of 162 countries surveyed, the United States was ranked as 134th for prevalence of slavery with almost 60,000 people enslaved.
  • The United States is a major destination country for internationally trafficked individuals.
 
arclight said:
Two things I see as being completely unacceptable:-

1. People not being patriotic to their country. If you have British, Americam, French, German etc. nationality then that is where your unqualified allegiance must lie.

2. People puting their religion before their country.
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....So, where do those people who are of mixed blood/nationality, through no 'fault' of their own, have their allegiance? Many have legitimate dual nationality.

I'm not religious at all but I do understand and accept that any religious belief is always going to be stronger than what artificial boundary international politics has decided to create as a 'country'. Rightly or wrongly, for those who have religious belief it is more important and sacred than anything else in their lives. Sorry, I know that human religion is basically guilty for so much war and inhumanity but I think this is a fact which isn't debateable.

Look at the history of Africa.... Colonials invade and divide the land and its indigenous peoples vertically (longitude) when it is populated horizontally (latitude) by tribal peoples with very different and often conflicting religious beliefs. Duh!! Such ignorance and arrogance.
 
RedRobin said:
Look at the history of Africa.... Colonials invade and divide the land and its indigenous peoples vertically (longitude) when it is populated horizontally (latitude) by tribal peoples with very different and often conflicting religious beliefs. Duh!! Such ignorance and arrogance.
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its debatable ;)

I don't disagree about the ignorance, but you also split tribes in your examples along social, ethnic & cultural grounds (to name but 3). Its easy to blame religion for causing wars when its often about something else
 
daugirdas said:
because it is time to stop this political "correctness" b******t. We are not allowed to say anything against another religion or culture, even if it is funny or in a light context as an innocent joke. Probably Monty Python would be illegal today. We are afraid to touch these radicals overtaking our schools in Birmingham and London. Yet when someone wears a cross or talks about christianity can be told of for being intolerant to some pigs or be even fired from work. f*****g madness and here are the results. Enjoy.
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Not strictly true, you can slag off any religion in the world, just not an individual for having that religion.

All religions are crazy and just a load of made up b*****ks.
 
Bernie174 said:
1. Theft - From thou shall not steal
2. Murder. From Thou Shall not kill
3. Perjury - from Not be false witness against your neighbor

Common Law offences now abolished
Adultery - from thou shall not commit adultery
Blasphemy - Not taking the lords name in vain/not make idols.

Legislation now repealed in part
Sunday trading laws - Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy

So 7 of the 10 commandments are or were criminal offences in UK law.

Much of Common Law, ie unwritten law that has developed by convention or tradition is based on Christianity ideals.
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you got the wrong book there bernie ,the ten commandments where allegedly written 1500 years BEFORE jesus was born ,and even thats debatable as a version of them and the lords prayer has been found alluding to the pharaoh akenatan who believed in one god .
coming back to up to date events just heard on the news a french policewoman has been killed in todays shootings ,in my view if they catch any of the tigers alive and armed ,thats conclusive proof of involvement so no trial needed public execution by mademoiselle guillotine should be made within a couple of days ..a eye for a eye
 
LBC have just reported that the suspects involved in yesterday's shooting have been spotted driving through nothern France. The report said that they were wearing balaclavas ! Not sure I would rely on that report. wearing balaclavas in a car is not exactly the way to go unnoticed.
 
ST4 said:
Exactly, Christian customs are not to keep slaves, not to have honour killings, not to have arranged marriages, not to have halal meat...these are all customs that can be seen in Islamic countries and are completely at odds with western customs, traditions and law.
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You do realise that Halal and Kosher are very similar, particularly in the way in which the animal is killed?

http://www.judaism-islam.com/similarities-between-the-jewish-kosher-and-muslim-halal-food-laws/
 
the black fox said:
you got the wrong book there bernie ,the ten commandments where allegedly written 1500 years BEFORE jesus was born
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That is true, and then Islam should really subscribe to those same commandments. I am pretty sure it does, just in a somewhat different language, so where the hell does the jihadi madness come from? And the honour killings, and all that... and the love of neighbour... with AK47s...
 
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arclight said:
LBC have just reported that the suspects involved in yesterday's shooting have been spotted driving through nothern France. The report said that they were wearing balaclavas ! Not sure I would rely on that report. wearing balaclavas in a car is not exactly the way to go unnoticed.
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Indeed, their will lots of reports and speculation, Picardy has just been mentioned too. This quote is from the Telegraphs feed a couple of hours ago. if its true [and so far nothing to say it is I hasten to add], someones intelligence & information was somewhat lacking

"Classmates of Hamyd Mourad say he was in school here yesterday at the time of the attack on the Paris office of the weekly satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. "We all saw him," said Ines, 17. Kamel, 18, added: "He's studying for the science baccalaureat (equivalent of A levels) and he's a quiet, serious guy who lives with his parents. How could the media report that he was homeless and mixed up with terrorism?"

Hamyd Mourad, 18, is in police custody after handing himself in last night following reports that he was suspected of being the driver of the getaway car. Police sources say he has not been charged."
 
ST4 said:
I'll make it simple. What religious group other than Islam keeps slaves in the 21st century. What religion has a faction that deems marriage to children acceptable?
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some forms of Christianity , Hinduism, various sects, some aetheists (okay not a religious grouping)

both marigiable age and slavery are cultural more not religious ones
 
Yv said:
Indeed, their will lots of reports and speculation, Picardy has just been mentioned too. This quote is from the Telegraphs feed a couple of hours ago. if its true [and so far nothing to say it is I hasten to add], someones intelligence & information was somewhat lacking

"Classmates of Hamyd Mourad say he was in school here yesterday at the time of the attack on the Paris office of the weekly satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. "We all saw him," said Ines, 17. Kamel, 18, added: "He's studying for the science baccalaureat (equivalent of A levels) and he's a quiet, serious guy who lives with his parents. How could the media report that he was homeless and mixed up with terrorism?"

Hamyd Mourad, 18, is in police custody after handing himself in last night following reports that he was suspected of being the driver of the getaway car. Police sources say he has not been charged."
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On Sky now

http://news.sky.com/story/1404236/shots-fired-as-paris-suspects-located
 
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