Move Shoot Move or...?

[Son_of_Thor]

A V plate on the MSM may interest me as then there is no continuous connecting & unconnecting of components. But I use an L bracket so I'd still need something arca swiss on top of it....

Same here with the L bracket/Arc, you'd likely need to attach an Arca clamp to the Z/V mount

 

[Son_of_Thor]

Going sightly off topic (hope OP doesn't mind) what do people feel are the better lenses for astrophotography?

This is an interesting read:

How to Pick a Lens for Milky Way Photography – Lonely Speck

www.lonelyspeck.com

I am kinda convinced primes are better than zooms. I tried buying the 14mm f1.8 but now feel that's a bit too wide. I really liked my 35mm f1.4 but I'm kinda feeling I shouldn't have sold the 20mm f1.8 or the 24mm f1.4 I had.

I have a 17-28mm f2.8 which is fine but having a faster aperture really seems to help.

Coming back on topic now.... Using MSM I'd probably be comfortable trying longer lenses and stitching. So if I am tracking I kinda don't care which lens I use because I'll be able to make any of them work.
So may be the most sensible option is to just buy the £200 MSM than spend money on lenses.....

Not at all, something I've been pondering too.. I shoot Nikon and I used my trusty 20 1.8 @ DD. Coma in the corners wide open, but that was gone by f2.2, so seems pretty good. That said even @ f2.2 I was really struggling for enough light without star trailing hence looking at a tracker. I've also got the 35 and 50 1.8 primes to choose from. Nikon F mount wide angle zoom options are pretty rubbish/limited if you need something with a filter thread. I've thought about something wider, possibly 14mm 2.8 or faster to add to the kit bag. Unfortunately most of the 14mm lenses that are fast enough don't take filters

Hadn't really considered longer lenses and stitching - need more practice at the basics first!

 

[Son_of_Thor]

I think f/2.8 is about the limit imo but obviously if you have a newer camera than me ISO can be not so much of an issue.

My recent Stonehenge was f/2.5, ISO 320 & 90 seconds for the sky. So really f/3.2, ISO 800 with a tracked exposure (and a newer camera body) should be no issue. If I ever remember, I might try the CV21/3.5 on the tracker. Then again, I've been meaning to compare the 35GM vs CV40/1.2 & the 20G vs CV21/3.5 & that hasn't happened yet

20mm is about as wide as I'd want to go - & it's probably a little less by the time you lose a bit through blending/cropping.

Think I'm going to stick with my 20/35/50 combo for now and add a tracker to increase exposure time/reduce ISO for the time being. It's a lot cheaper than a 14mm prime anyway and will sort the GAS issues for now! Always good to have something new to play with

Time/opportunity is my main issue with work/family life, etc.. Suspect if I do buy one it'll be a while before I get any further than practicing with it in the back garden

 

[Son_of_Thor]

I have got a wanted thread up for the MSM stuff in case I get lucky

well if you don't need them I have a wanted thread for it

Put me down as 2nd in line for these if you decide to move them on

 

[Son_of_Thor]

There is certainly a large element of GAS for me too. I have a small cash flow issue at the moment which kinda means I haven't got the money ready to buy much right now.
The weather has been terrible till recently but its getting better now. so hoping to get out and about again.

planning for stonehenge around next new moon which is on July 10th, you are welcome to join

I'd love to be get out and about again and that'd be great, but it's not looking very likely for me for the next couple of months...

 

[LeeRatters]

Think I'm going to stick with my 20/35/50 combo for now and add a tracker to increase exposure time/reduce ISO for the time being. It's a lot cheaper than a 14mm prime anyway and will sort the GAS issues for now! Always good to have something new to play with

Time/opportunity is my main issue with work/family life, etc.. Suspect if I do buy one it'll be a while before I get any further than practicing with it in the back garden

I think 20 & 35 is fine. I've taken a few with the 35GM and managed plenty of sky/MW in the frame. My long zoom balances okay but is too slow. I might try the 85mm on some constellations at some point.

 

[nandbytes]

I think f/2.8 is about the limit imo but obviously if you have a newer camera than me ISO can be not so much of an issue.

My recent Stonehenge was f/2.5, ISO 320 & 90 seconds for the sky. So really f/3.2, ISO 800 with a tracked exposure (and a newer camera body) should be no issue. If I ever remember, I might try the CV21/3.5 on the tracker. Then again, I've been meaning to compare the 35GM vs CV40/1.2 & the 20G vs CV21/3.5 & that hasn't happened yet

20mm is about as wide as I'd want to go - & it's probably a little less by the time you lose a bit through blending/cropping.

I used to own a few voigtlander lenses when I didn't much care of AF. The feeling I got was they were generally not designed with coma correction in mind.
40mm f1.2 for example isn't great which is why I never bought it.

Voigtlander 40mm f/1.2 Nokton Review

Order the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.2 Nokton: [aurl=https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1362557-REG/voigtlander_nokton_40mm_f_1_2_aspherical.html,htt...

www.fredmiranda.com

So I kinda figured you decided to go with Sony lenses for this main reason....
Of course would be fun to test and compare but your recent Sony lenses are all probably as good as it gets for astrophotography

I think 20 & 35 is fine. I've taken a few with the 35GM and managed plenty of sky/MW in the frame. My long zoom balances okay but is too slow. I might try the 85mm on some constellations at some point.

I remember advising you the tamron 70-180mm
I'm a terrible influence, I'll show myself out

 

[nandbytes]

Having now watched the video, these seem like a very good idea, certainly for mounting a ballhead to the tracker. I intend to mount the tracker onto a geared head (when I finally bite and buy one). One of the guys shooting with a MSM @ Durdle Door was having issues with centre of gravity/overbalancing and one of these mounts would've sorted the issues he was experiencing I'd say

It does sound good in theory, think I'll probably buy at least one of them when I buy a tracker to try it out

my ballheads are generally good enough to hold it off centre of gravity also my kit is reasonably light too. Could have it be under 1kg if needed!
but think there Z/V things are generally useful as Alyn put it in his video. I am sure I can find more uses for them.

Same here with the L bracket/Arc, you'd likely need to attach an Arca clamp to the Z/V mount

I too use a L bracket on my main body. I was thinking of fitting an arca clamp to the Z mount.
The V mount will probably just live on the tracker permanently.

 

[Son_of_Thor]

I think 20 & 35 is fine. I've taken a few with the 35GM and managed plenty of sky/MW in the frame. My long zoom balances okay but is too slow. I might try the 85mm on some constellations at some point.

Annoyingly I had an 85 1.8 before I got the 70-200 - didn't think I'd use it again, but I suspect it'd be ideal on a MSM tracker for constellations

 

[LeeRatters]

I used to own a few voigtlander lenses when I didn't much care of AF. The feeling I got was they were generally not designed with coma correction in mind.
40mm f1.2 for example isn't great which is why I never bought it.

Voigtlander 40mm f/1.2 Nokton Review

Order the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.2 Nokton: [aurl=https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1362557-REG/voigtlander_nokton_40mm_f_1_2_aspherical.html,htt...

www.fredmiranda.com

So I kinda figured you decided to go with Sony lenses for this main reason....
Of course would be fun to test and compare but your recent Sony lenses are all probably as good as it gets for astrophotography



I remember advising you the tamron 70-180mm
I'm a terrible influence, I'll show myself out

Sorry. I did mean test and compare in general not just for Astro. I did actually start taking my first few Milky Way images with the Voigtländer 21mm back in the beginning. I've sort of switched over to AF for others to use the camera on days out, holidays etc really but it also works out really well for Astro too.

 

[nandbytes]

Think I'm going to stick with my 20/35/50 combo for now and add a tracker to increase exposure time/reduce ISO for the time being. It's a lot cheaper than a 14mm prime anyway and will sort the GAS issues for now! Always good to have something new to play with

Time/opportunity is my main issue with work/family life, etc.. Suspect if I do buy one it'll be a while before I get any further than practicing with it in the back garden

considering you have a high res body like me, perhaps a 14mm could double up as 21mm too in APS-C mode.
What's more your 35mm could be 50mm too in APS-C mode.

but like you say issue with 14mm options is the lack of filter thread.
On Nikon you could look at the laowa 12mm f2.8 which can take 95mm filters.

 

[Son_of_Thor]

considering you have a high res body like me, perhaps a 14mm could double up as 21mm too in APS-C mode.
What's more your 35mm could be 50mm too in APS-C mode.

but like you say issue with 14mm options is the lack of filter thread.
On Nikon you could look at the laowa 12mm f2.8 which can take 95mm filters.

Not sure I'm that keen on using crop mode TBH. I'm quite happy with 20mm for the minute, a wider lens is a decision for another day (I've been pondering it for a couple of years, so there's no rush)... Concentrate on sorting a tracker first

I hadn't seen the Laowa 12mm and I was wondering how they'd done the filter thread with the front element being quite rounded, but it looks like they've come up with an adapter ring that's quite deep which means the filter holder sits in front of the front element

 

[nandbytes]

I have been looking into all this last night in more detail.....

I found this video series about the MSM by Glen Tillyard

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw9pZc62Hy8Ucg3rxbUoDEA

He has a range of videos showing various possible setups with MSM. I particularly liked the one where he uses the phone to get polar alignment.
His video series is really helpful to judge which accessories you might want to invest in because he goes through it all i.e. the wedge, Z/V mounts, phone bracket, etc.
Watching all his videos will take you a good couple hours (I watched it on 1.5x and sometimes 2x speed ) but I think its worth it if you are set on MSM.

If you still haven't decided here's a starting point in case you haven't found this already.
I found this comparison really helpful for the trackers. good starting point for comparisons then you can look into each of the points in detail for which ever one grabs your interest.

Which Star Tracker Should I Get?

In this detailed comparison, we will compare each star tracker and find out which one is the best!

www.peterzelinka.com

 

[Son_of_Thor]

Well, I've finally picked one up from fleabay with the laser and scope for reasonable money. Not had a chance to do anything other than check all the kit is there yet.. This probably means it's going to be cloudy for the next couple of months of course!

 

[nandbytes]

Well, I've finally picked one up from fleabay with the laser and scope for reasonable money. Not had a chance to do anything other than check all the kit is there yet.. This probably means it's going to be cloudy for the next couple of months of course!

picked one up myself on this forum.
haven't had the chance to try it properly myself.

 

[Son_of_Thor]

picked one up myself on this forum.
haven't had the chance to try it properly myself.

Yeah, I spotted. I got the wedge as well for 30 odd quid more than you paid. Not sure I need it as I've got a geared head, but there's one way to find out... Got it on charge, going to at least try and work out how to use it this weekend

 

[nandbytes]

Yeah, I spotted. I got the wedge as well for 30 odd quid more than you paid. Not sure I need it as I've got a geared head, but there's one way to find out... Got it on charge, going to at least try and work out how to use it this weekend

good price
Wedge can be very useful especially if you are in the situation I was on Thursday where the Polaris was blocked out.

 

[Son_of_Thor]

good price
Wedge can be very useful especially if you are in the situation I was on Thursday where the Polaris was blocked out.

I'd assumed it would be game over if you couldn't see Polaris?

 

[nandbytes]

I'd assumed it would be game over if you couldn't see Polaris?

nah...
Polaris i.e. North Star is really only a lucky coincidence that there is a star that point roughly towards the north and also form part of the Ursa Minor constellation. So it's an easy reference to align your tracker to the north. It slightly off north but for wide field astro its no big deal.
Also in Southern Hemisphere there is no Polaris (or its equivalent for south pole), how do you think they align

there are devices that align to the north using other means like compasses and GPS.

So to align with a wedge all you need to do is first get a compass (you can use an app on the phone if you like) point towards North. Get your GPS coordinates, your lattitue in the UK will be 50-60 degrees north. turn your wedge to that number. of course without seeing the Polaris through the scope you can't do fine adjustments but it'll be aligned enough to get you around 60s-ish exposures.

not sure if I linked this guy before but have a watch of his MSM videos on various setups for aligning

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw9pZc62Hy8Ucg3rxbUoDEA

 

[Son_of_Thor]

nah...
Polaris i.e. North Star is really only a lucky coincidence that there is a star that point roughly towards the north and also form part of the Ursa Minor constellation. So it's an easy reference to align your tracker to the north. It slightly off north but for wide field astro its no big deal.
Also in Southern Hemisphere there is no Polaris (or its equivalent for south pole), how do you think they align

there are devices that align to the north using other means like compasses and GPS.

So to align with a wedge all you need to do is first get a compass (you can use an app on the phone if you like) point towards North. Get your GPS coordinates, your lattitue in the UK will be 50-60 degrees north. turn your wedge to that number. of course without seeing the Polaris through the scope you can't do fine adjustments but it'll be aligned enough to get you around 60s-ish exposures.

not sure if I linked this guy before but have a watch of his MSM videos on various setups for aligning

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw9pZc62Hy8Ucg3rxbUoDEA

...all of which makes sense when you start to think about it properly. I haven't really had occasion/reason to until now...

Thanks for the info

 

[LeeRatters]

nah...
Polaris i.e. North Star is really only a lucky coincidence that there is a star that point roughly towards the north and also form part of the Ursa Minor constellation. So it's an easy reference to align your tracker to the north. It slightly off north but for wide field astro its no big deal.
Also in Southern Hemisphere there is no Polaris (or its equivalent for south pole), how do you think they align

there are devices that align to the north using other means like compasses and GPS.

So to align with a wedge all you need to do is first get a compass (you can use an app on the phone if you like) point towards North. Get your GPS coordinates, your lattitue in the UK will be 50-60 degrees north. turn your wedge to that number. of course without seeing the Polaris through the scope you can't do fine adjustments but it'll be aligned enough to get you around 60s-ish exposures.

not sure if I linked this guy before but have a watch of his MSM videos on various setups for aligning

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw9pZc62Hy8Ucg3rxbUoDEA

I'm not sure alignment using the wedge itself is going to be that accurate in practice. Finding true North and setting the exact latitude on uneven ground isn't going to be easy I wouldn't have thought....

 

[nandbytes]

I'm not sure alignment using the wedge itself is going to be that accurate in practice. Finding true North and setting the exact latitude on uneven ground isn't going to be easy I wouldn't have thought....

yes you will need to level the tripod base (which I'd suggest doing for almost anything and everything....)

The level of accuracy required will depend on what and how you are trying to shoot. Polar itself isn't true north. Laser is also not accurate. Wedge alignment probably even less accurate but probably not far off the laser since you are actually trying to align it to true north using coordinates (but wedge scale is hardly going to be accurate).

I reckon with the wedge alone you could get 30-60s exposures. With laser I seem to be able to get close to 120s.
I haven't tried it with polar scope yet.

 

[LeeRatters]

yes you will need to level the tripod base (which I'd suggest doing for almost anything and everything....)

The level of accuracy required will depend on what and how you are trying to shoot. Polar itself isn't true north. Laser is also not accurate. Wedge alignment probably even less accurate but probably not far off the laser since you are actually trying to align it to true north using coordinates (but wedge scale is hardly going to be accurate).

I reckon with the wedge alone you could get 30-60s exposures. With laser I seem to be able to get close to 120s.
I haven't tried it with polar scope yet.

I'm not dismissing it, but I'd be very interested in seeing someone polar align in that way. What increment marks are on the wedge?

Laser is pretty good. I've never had an issue and I have read of people shooting 4-5 minutes with laser alignment.

 

[nandbytes]

I'm not dismissing it, but I'd be very interested in seeing someone polar align in that way. What increment marks are on the wedge?

worth a watch if you are interested in learning more about using a wedge

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYyDfpCfQrw&t=6s


Obviously not done in the field and its more a demo but its a good explanation.

Laser is pretty good. I've never had an issue and I have read of people shooting 4-5 minutes with laser alignment.

I guess it depends on what, where, when and how you shoot.
For example shooting the milkyway with the 20mm I could only really use 8s or 10s at a stretch but shooting the Ursa Major I could get away with 25s-ish.
Milky Way was pretty much opposite to the polar so stars stretch a lot more than those near the polar like the Ursa Major.

I do not doubt its possible to get 4-5 minutes with the laser for wide field stuff.... in my trials with a 35mm I have been happy up to 120-140s.
But my laser is older without the option for calibrating it, I guess you have a newer version you can calibrate which would be more accurate.
But right now I don't really see the need for more than 120-140s exposures.

 

[LeeRatters]

worth a watch if you are interested in learning more about using a wedge

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYyDfpCfQrw&t=6s


Obviously not done in the field and its more a demo but its a good explanation.



I guess it depends on what, where, when and how you shoot.
For example shooting the milkyway with the 20mm I could only really use 8s or 10s at a stretch but shooting the Ursa Major I could get away with 25s-ish.
Milky Way was pretty much opposite to the polar so stars stretch a lot more than those near the polar like the Ursa Major.

I do not doubt its possible to get 4-5 minutes with the laser for wide field stuff.... in my trials with a 35mm I have been happy up to 120-140s.
But my laser is older without the option for calibrating it, I guess you have a newer version you can calibrate which would be more accurate.
But right now I don't really see the need for more than 120-140s exposures.

I've not gone above 90-120 seconds so far. I find that a nice balance with a reasonable iso in all honesty.

I'll take a look at that Wedge video at some point. Not that I want one at all, a ballhead is fine right now.

And yes, I think they now only sell the lasers that can be calibrated. We done both of ours and at about 3-4 meters they were up to about 20mm off of 'centre'.