Motocycle Racing

DanielJay

DanielJay

Suspended / Banned
Messages
15
Name
Daniel
Edit My Images
No
I am trying to get into doing some work for some motorcycle race teams. I was at a race all this last weekend and took a lot of photos (2000+). The general manager of the team I was visiting gave me his business card and asked to send all of my photos of the team to him. I said sure since I am just getting the hang of it (This was my first race) and to try getting my foot in the door to eventually get a photographers pass.

If you were to get a photographers pass through a specific team would you charge them for the photos? How would you charge?
 
Well if your going to shoot like that just for a media pass then you need your head read, unless your a millionare of course, and if you where not charging then keep you head down low and watch out for any sharp objects that my stab you in the back. Afterall that is what you will be doing to fully paid media togs already there.

How would you charge? set a business account up and send them an invoice.

Dont forget you will need public liability insurance.
 
Yes I do understand that there are others that make their living off of doing such events and when you are in their way it makes that job difficult. I am just trying to get started and figure things out. After this event I do not want to just give my work away, for as you say it is not fair to the others that depend on that money. Plus giving things away does not pay for equipment/food/.... the list goes on.

Do you price your services for a weekend long event by the amount of quality pictures that you take? By the time that you have spent there?
 
If you give stuff away to them at first, how would you look at telling them you have started charging?

I would give the same advice to you as I gave someone else.

Find a 'small' name rider from one of the support races, and get them to start promoting themselves in local media, you can then either charge them to supply an image for the editorial, or supply them pictures in return for advertising your name on the bike/truck/teamwear. Once you have enough of a portfolio of printed media, then you have enough to qualify you to apply for a media pass for yourself. If your work is good enough then the teams will want to buy them from you, or hire you to cover practise days/race days.

DON'T GIVE STUFF AWAY IN RETURN FOR NOTHING, UNLESS YOU DON'T VALUE YOUR OWN WORK.

Only go down this route if this is what you want to be doing fulltime bike photography. If you are planning on earning a few quid here and there for a hobby you will still be treading on peoples toes.
 
No you charge by the use for the pictures - 2000+ images, no team manager is going to thank you for that. They expect you to sit and edit them down, HARD. Be critical of your own work. You are taking pictures to appease their sponsors - so it doesn't matter how good the shot is, if the sponsor's logo is obscured it is a crap shot. So you need a range of good shots to show the different sponsors logos.

Price - it is crap which is why I gave up going to race tracks years ago - too many people like you there. I now only do main features. While you waste an entire weekend (or a GP or WSB event is 4 days - from Thursday through to Sunday) on one event?

How much to charge? Minumim of £175.00 + V.A.T. per use. Or were you thinking of letting them have all the lot for an accreditation.....what a joke.

Out of interest, what do you do for a living? How would you like it if someone came along and gave work to your customers?

Get real.
 
Agree with a lot that's been said.

Bear in mind teams don't pay for anything. They're on very tight budgets and team managers / team press managers are also more aware than anyone that there's a huge queue of people wanting to get into the race paddock in one form or another so they have a good bargaining tool to make you hand stuff over to them for nothing and that includes photographs.

Without good photos, they don't get exposure, and without exposure they don't get sponsors and without sponsors they don't race so don't be under any illusion that your work is valuable to them and their sponsors too.

If you are issuing images to ANYONE, even if they're paying you, be sure to make it clear (preferably in writing) what you are allowing the images to be used for (i.e. the licence of use). It's pretty gutting when you've handed an image over to a team in good faith thinking it's to be used for a press release only to find that, not only is it on the press release, but that it's also on the frontline advertising campaign of their main sponsor who is a multinational organisation and is using your image everywhere, potentially raking in £'s on the back of it. Doing favours is ok, but make sure you agree a fair price for fair usage of an image and agree that usage in writing as already stated.

It is a gratifying job if you get in but it's also one that's heavily over subscribed and supplied so the monetary value of images has plummeted......partly on the back of people giving them away..and so we go back to the original comments in this thread.

As an aside, be aware that some race orgs (the MCRCB in respect of BSB for instance) do NOT isssue media press access for solus team photographers. as a rule. You still need to be accredited to a recognised media outlet to get a pass. So bear this in mind before you give all your images away to the manager who say's he'll get you trackside as you'll be their team snapper. It's not necessarily malicious on his part, it's more likely than he won't know the full politics of the media accreditation side of the race paddock. Check with the issuing authority before you promise anything or also are promised anything.

Have fun....

Guy
 
Thanks for that post Cope and the above posters.

I am glad that I have not had time to process any of the photos from the weekend yet so nothing has left my hard drive. On the drive back home from the races and the last couple days I have been trying to sort how to handle this.

Less than 1/4 of the pictures I took (blurry/not blurry) were of the team that got me into the races and paddock for Friday - Sunday. I will have to send this manager a letter with the photos talking about usage/payments if the photos are used and that I retain copywrite to the photos. Now comes the hard part, trying to figure out prices.:shrug:

It is a gratifying job if you get in
Click to expand...
I think I am finding out how gratifying it is without handing out pictures yet. I quick went through them and picked out a shot from the team that got me in and made it the desktop background on my computer at work. I cropped it a bit and a lot of my co-workers have stopped by and looked in amazement.

As asked above about my main job. I do computer support for a healthcare organization. I take care of all of the servers, laptops, desktops, desk phones, mobile phones and printers. I do both the hardware and software work as well as a little bit of computer programming. I am one of 2 IT people out of about 200 employees.

Here is a scaled down version of one of the shots.
IMG_5385.jpg
 
You'l find alot of teams if wanting photos for media use will want them the same day, and normally within a few hours to get them on the news first.

If the team want you to shoot nothing but them on the grid, and on the track then,id be want payment per day they want you there. If there just getting you accredition, which would be quite in most race series then payment per use, but id make sure id shoot other races too, otherwise you run the risk of no income if you miss, and get nothing there interested in.

I am not an acredited tog by the way, just been thinking about myself
 
Lensflare said:
Get real.
Click to expand...

As DanielJay is new to the forum, it would maybe be nice to give him a nicer welcome (especially as you havent been here long yourself)

Welcome to the forum DJ, I'm afriad you are approaching a sensative subject to a lot of people. Although I've seen the same question get much much harsher responses on other forums.

quite a bit has been said already, but here are some points worthy of note

1) As has been said before, most series will not let you get accreditation working for a team. You need to be working for a media outlet that will give the championship enough publicity to satisfy them. They absolutely love local papers (and arent so keen on websites)

2) It would be practically impossible to go to a customer and say ' i've got no experience - want to buy my photos?'. Whatever anyone else says, you need to get the experience before selling the shots. People might tell you not to give your work away for free, but if no one wants to buy it then you cant sell it (supply and demand). Although your photo looks pretty damn good for a first attempt the customers would rather get better photos (often for free), rather than pay someone with no experience.

3) Keep in with that team and come to some kind of deal with them.. e.g. they give you a lift to the circuit in return for shots.. you get a sticker on the bike in return for shots.. something like that anyway.

4) Now, technically, it says on the back of your entrance ticket that you are only allowed to take shots if they are not for commercial purposes.. Bit of a problem there that no one has mentioned :)

5) If you are keen enough and want it bad enough then go for it.. It wont take you long to work out who is going to give you good advice and who will try and put you off because they are insecure in there own work. But if you dont have a big overdraft, or determination, or talent then now is the time to quit and do weddings were you can get paid **** loads without risking your life (assuming you dont insult the wife's mother)
 
I joined the forums after meeting some of you in London back in November. (I am actually from USA). I browse the forums on a semi regular basis as it is a good place to learn and find information. Plus I plan to come back to the UK sometime and would love to meet up with a group from here.

badgerbaiter, that is some good information. I will have to keep thinking before anything gets sent out on how I want to deal with the photos. I have several mixed feelings at this point so a little time away from the photos(but not to long) may clear my head. :)

At this point I find that photography is a passion and an escape from my every day computer work that I do. It keeps me active instead of sitting behind my desk. However it would also be nice to earn a bit to keep up with getting new lenses, bodies and accessories. I respect those that do this for a living and those just want to earn a little.

It wont take you long to work out who is going to give you good advice and who will try and put you off because they are insecure in there own work.
Click to expand...
While I was at this race I was talking with other photographers that did have photographer passes to get closer and they were all very friendly. We talked about how we were shooting, what settings and places we found we liked to shoot on the track. I was shocked at the openness of these fellow photographers. However, many told me I was crazy to come in with a big name team and not ask for a pass. Others told me that passes are hard to come by(but still willing to share ideas) while others gave me some ideas on how to get a pass.

Once I finish filtering out the great/good/bad photos I will have to post a few for others to let me know their ideas about them.
 
badgerbaiter said:
2) It would be practically impossible to go to a customer and say ' i've got no experience - want to buy my photos?'. Whatever anyone else says, you need to get the experience before selling the shots. People might tell you not to give your work away for free, but if no one wants to buy it then you cant sell it (supply and demand). Although your photo looks pretty damn good for a first attempt the customers would rather get better photos (often for free), rather than pay someone with no experience.
Click to expand...

Think the key word in the phrase is FREE, have you seen some of the very gainy shots that have been printed in press, but also printed and and used by some of the teams. Alot of small teams get a camera and start shooting themself's, most will not dip into there pockets unless they have too.

I generally feel that most simply arnt interested in paying for them all the time theres free bees, unless there something different.

But depends on what level of sport too, i very much doubt you'd £175 for a single image use from any-one but the top teams at the moment and even then it have to be something really special, as there are alot of full accreditted media guys in the BSB not charging a penny.
 
russdaz said:
Think the key word in the phrase is FREE, have you seen some of the very gainy shots that have been printed in press, but also printed and and used by some of the teams. Alot of small teams get a camera and start shooting themself's, most will not dip into there pockets unless they have too.

I generally feel that most simply arnt interested in paying for them all the time theres free bees, unless there something different.

But depends on what level of sport too, i very much doubt you'd £175 for a single image use from any-one but the top teams at the moment and even then it have to be something really special, as there are alot of full accreditted media guys in the BSB not charging a penny.
Click to expand...

I guess thats the difference between 4 wheels and 2. I'm surprised, though, as at the end of the day their sponsors want professional looking photos for publicity and wouldnt want any old rubbish on their website / brochures / truck / garage boards etc.
Mind you, bike teams and riders tend to be from up norf and they arent too keen on spending money :) :)
 
BB - I thought I was quite constructive in my answer.....must be thicker skinned than most folks, but I take your point about being a bit blunt Sorry DD, sincerely, it wasn't meant to offend, just bring you up sharp. Hopefully it had the intended result because you are now thinking about the situation and how it affects ALL photographers, including yourself in the future. Once you have set your price (free) you are stuck with it. However, I think now we know a littl emore about the situation, I think you owe the team that got you in something for their efforts. You could pick out say, four or five good shots and give them at a size suitable for papers, but not for full page magazine or brochure use, say 8x6 at 200 dpi. That will be good enough for any local or regional paper. They could also put them on the website. That would be keeping to your side of the bargain without giving away everything and leaving you with a bargaining tool.

I also said that I had given up my full, worldwide UIM accreditation years ago, only not in so many words - I actually said I had given up going to race tracks and left out the other bit. I acvtually used to shoot for MCN, Superbike, Bike, Motorad, Moto, and a whole host of others - then when I started Streetfighters with Steve Berry there was a bigger agenda, and so gave up the bum fight. The reason is that there are too many freebies to make any money, there are more lucrative outlets than motorcycle racing, however glamourous it may seem, it is where everyone wants to go and shoot - let them get on with it!

It isn't just motorcycle racing, it is every sphere where you see this happening. Horses, sailing (not so much because it is more difficult to get out on the sea and in front of sailing yachts or powerboats - helicopters don't come cheap!

If you are really serious, get in touch with a paper and get accreditation - get them to request UIM accreditation for you, then you have permenant accreditatio to any motorcycle racing event that is under their durisdiction: GP, WSB, BSB, Le Mans, Endurance races, Drag racing, Speedway, Moto-X, Trials......here and abroad.

Good luck, It is a long road with plenty of pot holes. Tread carefully and you will negotiate it - but also notice that there is a fair turnover of regular photographers. One place you can get good pictures by simply getting up early and being there is the Isle of Man - go to the Manx GP in September - you will get some brilliant photographs for your portfolio. You won't sell any because of the shop in Douglas that has pictures of every racer by a team of togs stationed around the circuit in the best places - all the teams go there for the IOM pics, but it would be good experience fo ryou.
 
Fairy nuff Lensflare :)
It certainly doesnt hurt to tell people trying to get into the business thats its bloody tough, though, so I agree with you there!

And welcome to the forum yourself :)
 
Lensflare said:
You could pick out say, four or five good shots and give them at a size suitable for papers, but not for full page magazine or brochure use, say 8x6 at 200 dpi. That will be good enough for any local or regional paper. They could also put them on the website. That would be keeping to your side of the bargain without giving away everything and leaving you with a bargaining tool.
Click to expand...

excellent advice IMHO
 
I take your point about being a bit blunt Sorry DD, sincerely, it wasn't meant to offend, just bring you up sharp.
Click to expand...
It takes a lot to offend me so everything is alright. :)

I did not think about sending lower res images to the team. That idea just gives me even more to think about. :lol:
 
Glad that things are sorted. I generally offend on first meetings with people! I have a whole string of insults at the ready!
 
russdaz said:
Think the key word in the phrase is FREE, have you seen some of the very gainy shots that have been printed in press, but also printed and and used by some of the teams. Alot of small teams get a camera and start shooting themself's, most will not dip into there pockets unless they have too.

I generally feel that most simply arnt interested in paying for them all the time theres free bees, unless there something different.

But depends on what level of sport too, i very much doubt you'd £175 for a single image use from any-one but the top teams at the moment and even then it have to be something really special, as there are alot of full accreditted media guys in the BSB not charging a penny.
Click to expand...

To put things in perspective,

I got the front cover on Motorcycle Racer magazine in 2006 with a shot of Shakey Byrne and I got paid £50 for that !!!!!

If you are very lucky a top team in BSB such as the factory Honda or Ducati team or Rizla Suzuki might pay in the region of £300-£600 per round. That's a guestimate and based on you handing over rights free images for them to do what they want with, including handing them to people that will use them to gain money from (i.e. sponsors). It's also based on you working super hard and probably with yourself and 2 other snappers in tow to get the job done to the standard they warrant and in line with the demands they'll put on you.

However, those jobs are not open as they are filled by Double Red and Gold&Goose and they have been around a long time and unless they really mess up, the door will be closed, but bearing in mind they've been around ages, they're not likely to mess up.

Gc
 
Yep pretty much what i thought, but who starts at the top? gotta be lucky, but the id just like emphaise my above comments where more the smaller support paddock, even alot of the Supersport teams are going on the cheap. Makes it vitually impossible to get in unless you have a lot of money in the bank, but there is alot media togs doing alot of publicity work for riders/teams without any payment. I enjoy the sport so will attend when i can etc, but i cant see it ever being much more then a hobby for me.
 
Are Patrick and David still doing the rounds? Haven't seen either for a while. As for the big tall guy, I see him at the powerboats sometimes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top