More studio practice - rim light

Bend The Light

Bend The Light

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So we set up again today and moved a few bits and pieces around. tried to take into account the things that people here said, and also have a go at something with a little more "modelling" light etc.

This was one of the results. We have a main light above the camera left shoulder giving the broad light on the face. We have a light behind the subject giving a hair/rim light. And a reflector camera right giving fill to the model's left face.

Hopefully there is a little more definition here, a little more shape to the face and the shadows. We moved the lights around, set to 1/2 or full, metered and set apertures, etc. All to get a balance. Did we achieve it? Let me know what you think.


31-3-2012 Tim at Studio Broad and Rim by http://bendthelight.me.uk, on Flickr
 
That's actually more of a backlight that a rimlight, a rimlight really comes more from the side/back than from the back.

But what an improvement over the shots you posted just a couple of days ago! Part of that improvement is down to getting rid of the white background, part of it is just thinking about where the light needs to be, instead of just flooding the subject with light.

But IMO you've used far too much fill - just try again with the reflector further away. Sometimes fill isn't needed at all, sometimes just a touch is needed.
 
Garry Edwards said:
That's actually more of a backlight that a rimlight, a rimlight really comes more from the side/back than from the back.

But what an improvement over the shots you posted just a couple of days ago! Part of that improvement is down to getting rid of the white background, part of it is just thinking about where the light needs to be, instead of just flooding the subject with light.

But IMO you've used far too much fill - just try again with the reflector further away. Sometimes fill isn't needed at all, sometimes just a touch is needed.
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Thanks. I was following direction from a lighting website, and they called it rim light. They could be wrong of course. Besides what it is called, I was pleased with the effect.

With the reflector, I was concious in a lot of test shots that the eye was VERY much in shadow, and so we used the reflector for that...maybe a SMALLER reflector just to lift the eye a little, but not hide all the shadows?

Thanks for your time...we are determined to do well with this, so all feedback is vital...and you see that we do take notice and try to use it to make things better. :)
 
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with shadow, so don't think that it always needs to be 'corrected'. Photographers are judges by the shadows they create, except on a very dull, overcast day, shadows are all around us - and the contrast between say bright sunlight and shadow cheers us up and makes everything look much more attractive and interesting...

We use small reflectors (and sometimes they are VERY small) in still life photography all the time, but they aren't a very good idea for subjects that don't keep still. It's usually better just to move the reflector further away from the subject, just moving it a bit further away will reduce the effect dramatically. Actually though I do it the opposite way round, I start with it a long way away and then move it gradually closer until it has the effect I'm looking for.

These lighting websites are all very well, but just try the suggestions I made in your other thread, nail those techniques first and then try doing more complicated things.
 
Garry Edwards said:
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with shadow, so don't think that it always needs to be 'corrected'. Photographers are judges by the shadows they create, except on a very dull, overcast day, shadows are all around us - and the contrast between say bright sunlight and shadow cheers us up and makes everything look much more attractive and interesting...

We use small reflectors (and sometimes they are VERY small) in still life photography all the time, but they aren't a very good idea for subjects that don't keep still. It's usually better just to move the reflector further away from the subject, just moving it a bit further away will reduce the effect dramatically. Actually though I do it the opposite way round, I start with it a long way away and then move it gradually closer until it has the effect I'm looking for.

These lighting websites are all very well, but just try the suggestions I made in your other thread, nail those techniques first and then try doing more complicated things.
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Thanks. Working on them. :)
 
Looks like a rim light to me too Garry - a backlight would give a different effect. For me I think the main issue is the main light is too low and that wee chink of light on his cheek catches the eye.
 
EOS_JD said:
Looks like a rim light to me too Garry - a backlight would give a different effect. For me I think the main issue is the main light is too low and that wee chink of light on his cheek catches the eye.
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I think that you'll find that it's a backlight - probably a hotshoe flash hidden behind the head - but let's not split hairs:lol:

What I was actually suggesting was to use shortlighting to slim the face.
Here is a (very old) example of how shortlighting can be used to slim the face and to emphasise it's qualities at the same time
shortlight.jpg
 
So can you show the difference in rim/backlight?
 
EOS_JD said:
So can you show the difference in rim/backlight?
Click to expand...

Well yes, a backlight is the one with the hotshoe flashgun behind the head, where the light is lighting the edges of the subject, or is acting as a hairlight, or is just lighting from behind, and a rimlight is a light at the side and a bit behind as in this example (nude, NSFW) with is actually a double rimlight - lit from both sides. A rimlight puts light on the edge, with a bit wandering onto the front sometimes, depending on the shape of the subject, a backlight typically just lights the edge
 
It was a back light...a studio light behind the head. I have today been back and snooted a light behind and on the same side as the main to try a more "rim light" approach...

...I have also tried again with short-lighting. I have used the main light closer and more to the side of the model, and a little fill from the reflector. I think I have something better...but it will be tonight before I post up the examples for you to rip apart (garry! ;) )

Cheers
 
Bend The Light said:
It was a back light...a studio light behind the head. I have today been back and snooted a light behind and on the same side as the main to try a more "rim light" approach...

...I have also tried again with short-lighting. I have used the main light closer and more to the side of the model, and a little fill from the reflector. I think I have something better...but it will be tonight before I post up the examples for you to rip apart (garry! ;) )

Cheers
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Try the rim light as the ONLY light, I think that you're trying to use too many lights at once. Using just one light will show you exactly what you can achieve with one light, using more will weaken the effect of the first, and cause confusion.

And bear in mind that the position of ANY light and the effect it has is entirely dependent on the angle of the subject.
 
Garry Edwards said:
And bear in mind that the position of ANY light and the effect it has is entirely dependent on the angle of the subject.
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Yes, that's why in the other thread we had shots with subject facing forward, slight turn, and in some, facing the camera.

Cheers
 
Bend The Light said:
Yes, that's why in the other thread we had shots with subject facing forward, slight turn, and in some, facing the camera.

Cheers
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That isn't really the best way of doing it.
It would be much easier for the camera and the sitter to stay in exactly the same position and for only the light to be moved.

Over time, this would give you a 'mental database' of the type of effect that you can expect to get with any keylight at any position, and this would then be broadened to to include sitters at different angles.

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, it's just that you're going about it the hard way really, using more than one light at a time and with your sitter facing in different directions.
 
Garry Edwards said:
That isn't really the best way of doing it.
It would be much easier for the camera and the sitter to stay in exactly the same position and for only the light to be moved.

Over time, this would give you a 'mental database' of the type of effect that you can expect to get with any keylight at any position, and this would then be broadened to to include sitters at different angles.

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, it's just that you're going about it the hard way really, using more than one light at a time and with your sitter facing in different directions.
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Yes, I can see that...I will work on that next time I am in the studio. Cheers
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well yes, a backlight is the one with the hotshoe flashgun behind the head, where the light is lighting the edges of the subject, or is acting as a hairlight, or is just lighting from behind, and a rimlight is a light at the side and a bit behind as in this example (nude, NSFW) with is actually a double rimlight - lit from both sides. A rimlight puts light on the edge, with a bit wandering onto the front sometimes, depending on the shape of the subject, a backlight typically just lights the edge
Click to expand...

Gary from my limited experience that nude example you show I think you are using the light as an Accent light. The backlight you talk of to me is a rim light shown bythe rim of light around the subject's head and back
 
On reading more, it seems the terms are mixed depending on what you read!:bonk::nuts:
 
EOS_JD said:
Gary from my limited experience that nude example you show I think you are using the light as an Accent light. The backlight you talk of to me is a rim light shown bythe rim of light around the subject's head and back
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I think we may be straying into the world of semantics here, but basically no, it isn't an accent light.
My definition of an accent light is an extra light that draws attention to a part of the subject. In the shot I linked to, there was NO lighting other than those two rim lights, which were strip softboxes fitted with honeycombs, so they weren't accent lights...
 
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I think what I was getting at in the photo above was a light around the edge of the hair, and I can see this as a backlight. But it was described as a rim light in one article I read, and I used their diagram to set it up...I can also see that a rim light could be like Garry's second post, where one side, well, actually less than the side, just the rim, is lit. I'm a novice, so I go with whatever people are calling them! :)

So, I tried again with the rim light (and this is not a back light)...this time I went with quite a broad main light (although i can see that had I brought it round to the side a little more, it would have been more of a short light). I snooted the other light and directed it at the hair. I see that the rim effect is only on that side of the head now (as opposed to all around in the backlit version).

But anyway, what do you think? By the way, the diagram is accurate, the squares are 1/2m each.


Andy with snooted rim light by http://bendthelight.me.uk, on Flickr

Let me know what you think (I know you will!). And I will try going back to a single light next time. :)
 
Bend The Light said:
I think what I was getting at in the photo above was a light around the edge of the hair, and I can see this as a backlight.
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It's a RIM light. You can see the rim.

Bend The Light said:
But it was described as a rim light in one article I read, and I used their diagram to set it up...I can also see that a rim light could be like Garry's second post, where one side, well, actually less than the side, just the rim, is lit. I'm a novice, so I go with whatever people are calling them! :)
Click to expand...

I see the rim in Garry's shot too.

Bend The Light said:
So, I tried again with the rim light (and this is not a back light)...this time I went with quite a broad main light (although i can see that had I brought it round to the side a little more, it would have been more of a short light). I snooted the other light and directed it at the hair. I see that the rim effect is only on that side of the head now (as opposed to all around in the backlit version).
Click to expand...

This is a rim light just more controlled as a hair light. Actually I'd describe it more as a back light.

Accent Light
Any Source from almost any direction which is used in addition to more basic lights to call attention to an object or area - not the Lighting.

Back Light
Back Light separates subject from background, saints from sinners, and one pro from another. Angle: toward the lens from above and behind the subject, or above, behind, and slightly to the side of it, high enough to cut lens Flare. It is especially helpful for video images that may suffer loss-of-edge contrast. Sins: confusing this source withBackground Light, and, for Motivation purists, using it at all. Tip: Smoke, steam, and other Translucent subjects adore Back Light of almost any color.

Hair light
An Accent Light presumably limited to the top of the head. Sometimes only a Back Light with delusions of grandeur and fancy-colored gels.

Rim Light
Subjects appear to have seen the light, then turned their back on it. Angle: The source looks down the barrel of your lens when the subject moves; sometimes several sources are aimed at the subject from wherever they can be hidden, more or less behind the subject.
 
Bend The Light said:
Thanks for the links...having a look at that book on amazon now...:)
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I'm not saying buy the book! I've not seen it - although may be ok. I find many of these books a little dated although many show classical lighting and posing. There are lots of great resources around.
 
Well, as I said, semantics. I don't see a light that is directly behind the subject and which only lights the very edge of the subject as a rimlight - but does it really matter? Language changes and evolves, and our American friends don't even use the same language anyway:exit:

Bend The Light said:
So, I tried again with the rim light (and this is not a back light)...this time I went with quite a broad main light (although i can see that had I brought it round to the side a little more, it would have been more of a short light). I snooted the other light and directed it at the hair. I see that the rim effect is only on that side of the head now (as opposed to all around in the backlit version).

But anyway, what do you think? By the way, the diagram is accurate, the squares are 1/2m each.


Andy with snooted rim light by http://bendthelight.me.uk, on Flickr

Let me know what you think (I know you will!). And I will try going back to a single light next time. :)
Click to expand...
What I want you to do here is to get the subject to look to his right a bit, which will show less of his right side than his left side, only the right side will be lit, leaving the left side in shadow. This is short lighting and is what I am trying to get you to try, it slims the face!
:lol:
 
Garry Edwards said:
What I want you to do here is to get the subject to look to his right a bit, which will show less of his right side than his left side, only the right side will be lit, leaving the left side in shadow. This is short lighting and is what I am trying to get you to try, it slims the face!
:lol:
Click to expand...

I did try it...I just haven't posted it yet...


Short Light on Andy by http://bendthelight.me.uk, on Flickr

:)
 
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