More redundant photographers!

[Steve Smith]

When was the last time you bought a vinyl record

Actually, this year's vinyl sales in the UK are the highest they have been for fifteen years.


Steve.

 

[Nawty]

The answer is to be "the person who is changing things to the detriment of others for your own benefit" rather than being "the person who is disadvantaged by other people who are changing things to the detriment of you".

There seems to be a notion that people are actively persecuting photographers and doing something intentionally malicious. This is not the case, it is change and change is inevitable. Look at Tesco, they're in trouble because peoples behaviours have been changed by external influences, not because all of a sudden people have an issue with them.

Actually, this year's vinyl sales in the UK are the highest they have been for fifteen years.

It's still niche though and not many people can make a living from it. Actually, here's something to think about, photography is highly analogous to music from a technology point of view...

Music went vinyl > CD > download
Photography went film > digital > ???

And I would suggest that this has already happened - the people making money from photography are the likes of Instagram who spotted that peoples behaviour was changing and offered a new service that met a demand.

 

[Box Brownie]

The answer is to be "the person who is changing things to the detriment of others for your own benefit" rather than being "the person who is disadvantaged by other people who are changing things to the detriment of you".

Taken to the extreme that is in effect the 'law of the jungle'........................!

 

[Steve Smith]

It's still niche though and not many people can make a living from it.

Music went vinyl > CD > download
Photography went film > digital > ???

Yes. It's not mainstream any more, but those currently employed in these fields should still be o.k.

As far as black and white film is concerned, Ilford recently stated that sales have increased and posted the results of a survey on another forum (APUG):

On average you are not as old as you think you are !

More and more young people are getting involved in analog photography and look to sites like APUG.org and ILFORD Photo.comto learn what it is all about, how to get involved and importantly actually how to do it.....

In very straight language : Analog Monochrome Photography and Printing and Processing is in the rudest of health as we leave 2014 with new people joining our creative world and more photographers and printers expanding the type of photography and printing they do.

We would like to thank everyone who contributed and especially everyone who helps and assists these new converts to analog photography and the crafts involved. A big thank you for the Apuggers who have made a great success of Localdarkrooms.comand everyone who buys, uses and value's ILFORD Photo products, we could not do what we do without you.

So the same is probably true for vinyl records too.


Steve.

 

[Phil V]

...
It's still niche though and not many people can make a living from it. Actually, here's something to think about, photography is highly analogous to music from a technology point of view...

Music went vinyl > CD > download
Photography went film > digital > ???

And I would suggest that this has already happened - the people making money from photography are the likes of Instagram who spotted that peoples behaviour was changing and offered a new service that met a demand.

But Instagram aren't eating the photographers dinner, they're eating Kodak's. That's a whole other issue.

Whilst 'I'm alright Jack', bobbing along and whilst I can see swathes of the industry who are untouched by 'free photographers', I have a real disdain for people giving away images, mostly because (as in lots of areas of life) their arrogance is a veil over their stupidity. When someone uses your images for free, that's not a 'Great image - thanks' it's a 'Thanks Sucker, it's good enough to use but not good enough to pay for' .

The comparison to doing a favour for a neighbour is so ridiculous I can't believe people still trot it out. I'm happy to do favours for friends, neighbours or relatives, but these are proportionate to the value of the favour and my relationship to them. So giving a neighbour a lift to work, helping a mate with some decorating, labouring for the local scout group, or even giving away portrait sessions to close mates are perfectly reasonable things to do. Giving away the fruits of my labour so that a newspaper or magazine can turn a profit? Being the only person in the whole process that's not being paid? That's not a favour, that's just being taken advantage of - no matter how much you think your ego is being stroked, you're being shafted.

 

[Nawty]

Giving away the fruits of my labour so that a newspaper or magazine can turn a profit? Being the only person in the whole process that's not being paid? That's not a favour, that's just being taken advantage of - no matter how much you think your ego is being stroked, you're being shafted.

Absolutely agree - I think there are two different but intertwined discussions happening here. One about the commercial realities of now and another about the future of the industry.

I don't have to deal with the commercial realities of now as it's just a hobby but it is interesting to speculate on the future of the industry and as an outside observer I probably have a different view to someone who is on the inside.

 

[StewartR]

I'm happy to do favours for friends, neighbours or relatives, but these are proportionate to the value of the favour and my relationship to them. So giving a neighbour a lift to work, helping a mate with some decorating, labouring for the local scout group, or even giving away portrait sessions to close mates are perfectly reasonable things to do. Giving away the fruits of my labour so that a newspaper or magazine can turn a profit? Being the only person in the whole process that's not being paid? That's not a favour, that's just being taken advantage of - no matter how much you think your ego is being stroked, you're being shafted.

Well said.

 

[PMN]

Also, hardly any of my musician friends pay a studio to record now. Thanks to digital recording technology, anyone can afford studio quality recording in their own home.

Yep, have you ever wondered why so many lower end band's recordings sound utterly rubbish? There's a vast gulf between having the potential to attain studio quality and actually knowing how to attain it. How many serious releases by 'proper' bands (proper as in not electronic artists) are self-produced ad recorded at home? Hardly any and there's a very good reason for that - because by comparison to good experienced professional studios the vast majority of them sound rubbish.

Everyone these days has a digital camera, it doesn't mean everyone knows what they're doing with it.

I'm actually a little surprised you of all people have made this point.

 

[Yv]

But Instagram aren't eating the photographers dinner, they're eating Kodak's. That's a whole other issue.

Whilst 'I'm alright Jack', bobbing along and whilst I can see swathes of the industry who are untouched by 'free photographers', I have a real disdain for people giving away images, mostly because (as in lots of areas of life) their arrogance is a veil over their stupidity. When someone uses your images for free, that's not a 'Great image - thanks' it's a 'Thanks Sucker, it's good enough to use but not good enough to pay for' .

The comparison to doing a favour for a neighbour is so ridiculous I can't believe people still trot it out. I'm happy to do favours for friends, neighbours or relatives, but these are proportionate to the value of the favour and my relationship to them. So giving a neighbour a lift to work, helping a mate with some decorating, labouring for the local scout group, or even giving away portrait sessions to close mates are perfectly reasonable things to do. Giving away the fruits of my labour so that a newspaper or magazine can turn a profit? Being the only person in the whole process that's not being paid? That's not a favour, that's just being taken advantage of - no matter how much you think your ego is being stroked, you're being shafted.

nuff said!

 

[Moreorless]

I wonder whether trends in photographic taste maybe somewhat of an issue and perhaps somewhat of a solution in the future?

I get the sense at the moment that the overall decline in quality of images your likely to get without using a photographic specialist has been somewhat balanced out by a public taste for images that look "amateurish" simply because they give the impression that there somehow more "real" in mirroring(or actually being) the kind of image a layman using a phone would create. That taste may not last forever though and if/when it does shift could perhaps we see the value of higher quality images increase?

 

[Phil V]

I wonder whether trends in photographic taste maybe somewhat of an issue and perhaps somewhat of a solution in the future?

I get the sense at the moment that the overall decline in quality of images your likely to get without using a photographic specialist has been somewhat balanced out by a public taste for images that look "amateurish" simply because they give the impression that there somehow more "real" in mirroring(or actually being) the kind of image a layman using a phone would create. That taste may not last forever though and if/when it does shift could perhaps we see the value of higher quality images increase?

There's an element of this too... Remember the furore amongst photographers when the 1st 'official' images of Prince George were released.

 

[PaulF]

It has been said before that 'what is your job that you have this view of others livelihoods....' I would just ask anyone who takes your position to tread carefully because should such sea change happen in your jobs sector would you feel the same if others told you "so what if you have lost your source of income..............go find another job............."

There in lies the rub, other industry sectors have seen change and people did have to find other ways to make a living. The photography industry is by no means special in this respect and is subject to market forces just like all others, and why shouldn't it be.
For instance, and my situation may mirror in some ways that of a pro photographer, when I started out in my IT career I was fixing pc's (desktops mainly) that were quite big and you needed to know DOS to get them to work. move on a few years and things started to change in the IT industry when Windows got a bit more user friendly and suddenly most people knew someone who would be able to build a pc or reload the software and I could see that I would be out of a job in a while if I didn't adapt to that change. So, I moved into more complicated kit (from the average user's point of view) namely servers, Low-Mid-High end servers, Intel, RISC, Windows, Unix, IBM, Alpha Servers, Storagework arrays ie the stuff that no one down the pub would be able to fix. Got accreditation with quite a few manufactures and moved into supporting the corporate market.

Now, I'm not suggesting that all pro photographers should all suddenly move into the B2B market but if your business plan is based around an income generated from a source that has changed the way they acquire images then your business plan needs to change to reflect that or you will be in trouble.
That is not the fault of amateur photographers but the change in the market and that change has already happened and some may say that if, as a pro, you are just noticing that change then it may already be too late unfortunately.

 

[DemiLion]

You realise that we are almost exclusively talking about the B2B market here?

 

[PaulF]

Sorry, probably didn't put that the best way I could have.
What I meant was a move to more corporate business, product/advertising etc and away from Newspapers in general and Local Newspapers in particular as they are the ones that have changed where they are sourcing some of their images.

 

[DemiLion]

And you think that amateurism doesn't populate that market in exactly the same way?

Except that this time it's worse. It's so called 'professionals' coming in from the B2C market and massively undercharging.

 

[PaulF]

I won't pretend to know the pro photography market and business inside out, as I have stated previously I have no intention of ever turning what to me is a hobby into a job. But, surely not many amateurs are going to be sending in quotes to do advertisement or product shoots. Or by 'amateurism' do you mean pro's acting like amateurs in their business dealings, if so that's a whole different discussion

But if, as you say it's other pro's undercutting each other presumably that would be because there is more supply than demand, that's the way it works in most markets.

 

[Steve Smith]

Yep, have you ever wondered why so many lower end band's recordings sound utterly rubbish? There's a vast gulf between having the potential to attain studio quality and actually knowing how to attain it. How many serious releases by 'proper' bands (proper as in not electronic artists) are self-produced ad recorded at home? Hardly any and there's a very good reason for that - because by comparison to good experienced professional studios the vast majority of them sound rubbish.

Everyone these days has a digital camera, it doesn't mean everyone knows what they're doing with it.

I'm actually a little surprised you of all people have made this point.

Perhaps I'm in the minority then as the handful of friends I have who do their own recording do it very well with great results. One in particular is a session drummer who has recorded a lot at Liam Watson's Toe Rag Studio and in my opinion, what he can record in his home studio wouldn't benefit from being recorded in a 'proper' high end studio.

But yes, it is similar to owning a camera and thinking you're professional, so I take your point on a more general basis.

I think the point I was making was that there are a lot of things which used to be a specialist service which are now available to all.


Steve.

 

[dejongj]

My ego won't get stroked by having my name in a publication that I won't read and where I've already seen the photo. Giving it away for commercial gain by someone else for a mention just doesn't make any sense.

I have given away photos for specific use in a PhD regarding gaur. The student involved approached the subject very professional and had no monetary gain.

I can't blame a commercial institute for trying it on, just don't get people going for it, nor that they feel flattered by it.

 

[PMN]

Perhaps I'm in the minority then as the handful of friends I have who do their own recording do it very well with great results. One in particular is a session drummer who has recorded a lot at Liam Watson's Toe Rag Studio and in my opinion, what he can record in his home studio wouldn't benefit from being recorded in a 'proper' high end studio.

But yes, it is similar to owning a camera and thinking you're professional, so I take your point on a more general basis.

I think the point I was making was that there are a lot of things which used to be a specialist service which are now available to all.


Steve.

I thought it would have been fairly obvious I wasn't implying every single person who records at home is an idiot, Steve. I didn't think I needed to add that disclaimer.

My point still stands, just because the gear to achieve decent quality recording is much more available now doesn't automatically make everyone good at it. It's all very well a band wanting to record and someone's mate down the road doing it on the cheap in his garage, but good pro studios are losing work and the general standards people expect are going down the crapper as a result.

Kind of similar to certain areas of photography really...

 

[Steve Smith]

My point still stands, just because the gear to achieve decent quality recording is much more available now doesn't automatically make everyone good at it.

Exactly correct - but just as it is with photography and lots of other areas, the 'good enough' threshold has been lowered. People are happy with what they get now despite it possibly (probably) not being as good as it would be with a specialist/pro. The difference is that now they have an option of paying for top quality or doing it themselves to a level they are happy with. For some the quality will still be great, for others, it could be terrible. In the past before any of these things were democratised by computers and digital technology, the choice to do it yourself did not exist.

Take my example of printing a poster as an example. In the 1970s the school I went to used to get a local printer to produce posters for summer fetes, Christmas fairs and school plays. The quality was good. Now they would do it in Word and photocopy it. It's not as good but it's good enough.

Kind of similar to certain areas of photography really...

Yes. I think we are more in agreement than disagreement on this. I possibly didn't express it very well.


Steve.

 

[PMN]

just as it is with photography and lots of other areas, the 'good enough' threshold has been lowered..

Well, it's been forced down by the number of people doing things on the cheap which leads to substandard work being fed to the masses. I wouldn't quite say it's been lowered, more that many people don't know what real quality is these days.

 

[dejongj]

Well, it's been forced down by the number of people doing things on the cheap which leads to substandard work being fed to the masses. I wouldn't quite say it's been lowered, more that many people don't know what real quality is these days.

If there are any parallels to be drawn with music, once should hopefully see that quality go up again....Remember the days when the masses thought 128Kb was good enough....I think this is now over.

However, associated business models do change. And photography, in my opinion, is no different.

 

[PMN]

If there are any parallels to be drawn with music, once should hopefully see that quality go up again....Remember the days when the masses thought 128Kb was good enough

A well mixed, well produced track will sound infinitely better at 128kbps than a badly recorded one will at 320kbps...

And no, photography isn't any different. Isn't that pretty much precisely what we've just been saying?

 

[Byker28i]

.Remember the days when the masses thought 128Kb was good enough....

Yup but the quality out of the early MP3 players was 128kb, and ripping a cd to mp3 at 256k too all day...

Technology marches on though. I was only the other day looking at images taken on my early Kodak digital camera 1.3mb jpegs

 

[Steve Smith]

If there are any parallels to be drawn with music, once should hopefully see that quality go up again....Remember the days when the masses thought 128Kb was good enough....I think this is now over.

No different to using a Nikon D800 and only viewing on your monitor!


Steve.