Byker28i
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And I'd suggest a lot of wedding photographers work comes from recommendations
More redundant photographers!
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And I'd suggest a lot of wedding photographers work comes from recommendations
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It's condescending to tell people they are being ripped off. Being "ripped off" implies being swindled in some way; many people are well aware what is happening but simply don't care. They may just think "my photos will just sit around gathering digital dust, it will be quite nice to think others are seeing them and I really can't be bothered with the hassle of running this like a business". The fact that others are seeing their work does quite often represent value to the photographer. They can't feasibly print and distribute their images on such a scale. So there is a kind of exchange of services going on with the newspaper. "Print and distribute my photo for my satisfaction and you can have it for free."
Personally, I've carried out around 10 free jobs for a magazine which is co-edited by a friendly acquaintance. Mostly event or concert photography. The pay-off being that she gets me into events for free. For the most part these have been events I might have been interested in attending anyway; so I get a free pass, "work" for half an hour (if that) then enjoy the rest of the event. I've done one that I wasn't interested in as a favour and it turned out that I quite enjoyed it anyway.
munch
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I am not being ripped off if I choose to do something. Just because others get paid to do it. If I am aware of that and still do it how am I being ripped off.
Does that mean all Special Constables are being ripped off? The volunteers at most sporting events where some get paid and others don't?
Does that mean all Special Constables are being ripped off? The volunteers at most sporting events where some get paid and others don't?
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Not ripped off... more..."being used"
or to be more accurate.. MUGS! especialy the special constables .....
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harsh but true... ... but you generalise a bit too much.. its tough luck for some pro photogrpahers.. not the ones who adapt and photogrpah what others find difficult..
Lindsay D
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Not ripped off... more..."being used"
But if they get to wear a uniform ...
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GeeJay57
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Actually isn't it all about recognition and reward? For some people, having their photo published is all the recognition and reward they want. For others the reward is what puts bread on the table and recognition is perhaps less important (though actually IMHO its always important).
That it's becoming more difficult for professional photo journalists to make a living seems to me to simply be a reflection of the changes in the world of photojournalism and what is deemed suitable quality by the publication. That stunning capture of the ball bouncing off the goalies gloves or the car pirouetting its way to the gravel trap, will still be the domain of the professional. Sure there will be someone in the bleachers that gets the odd decent shot, but access to more interesting locations, better equipment and the more practiced eye, ought to afford the professional more opportunities to produce higher quality images.
The guy snapping away with his iPhone won't have the access credentials etc. to get the best shots. That doesn't mean he won't capture an amazing image though, it just makes it less likely. If he does by pure chance get an amazing image and then chooses to give it away...
As for the 'please shoot our xxxx for free' situation. These people will get the image quality they deserve. If they want professional level images, they will need to hire a professional and pay the going rate. Sure they could get an amateur to wander about and take a few snaps, but they are unlikely to get the same imagination and image quality that a seasoned pro would provide. Weddings for example, I've taken some very useable images at weddings that I've attended, and in all cases have given them to the happy couple (all had hired professionals already). But I've taken nothing that compares to those taken by the pro that shot my daughter's wedding. He wasn't cheap, but he was/is damn good at what he does and I'd be very surprised if he goes out of business anytime soon.
That it's becoming more difficult for professional photo journalists to make a living seems to me to simply be a reflection of the changes in the world of photojournalism and what is deemed suitable quality by the publication. That stunning capture of the ball bouncing off the goalies gloves or the car pirouetting its way to the gravel trap, will still be the domain of the professional. Sure there will be someone in the bleachers that gets the odd decent shot, but access to more interesting locations, better equipment and the more practiced eye, ought to afford the professional more opportunities to produce higher quality images.
The guy snapping away with his iPhone won't have the access credentials etc. to get the best shots. That doesn't mean he won't capture an amazing image though, it just makes it less likely. If he does by pure chance get an amazing image and then chooses to give it away...
As for the 'please shoot our xxxx for free' situation. These people will get the image quality they deserve. If they want professional level images, they will need to hire a professional and pay the going rate. Sure they could get an amateur to wander about and take a few snaps, but they are unlikely to get the same imagination and image quality that a seasoned pro would provide. Weddings for example, I've taken some very useable images at weddings that I've attended, and in all cases have given them to the happy couple (all had hired professionals already). But I've taken nothing that compares to those taken by the pro that shot my daughter's wedding. He wasn't cheap, but he was/is damn good at what he does and I'd be very surprised if he goes out of business anytime soon.
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Sorry but the above is a bit of a myth ....there are a lot of amatuers about who are as good as if not better than pro photographers...
GeeJay57
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Fair enough, but finding one in the yellow pages might be a bit of a toughie. If they already know/knew of a competent amateur, they wouldn't be asking a pro to do it for free in the first place. Well that would be my guess. I would say that the main reason of seeking a professional xxxx is that there is an implied competence right off the bat, even when the end result contradicts that.
The main problem here in my view is that because everyone has a camera in their pocket today, they simply do not value images. In many cases probably don't actually appreciate the difference between simple snapshots and creative images or the difference in required effort to achieve either. People will only pay for things they value and only value things they pay for.
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The thread is about press work about the NUJ wanting to protect a trade,that used to be learned in the the press room of our papers,Don McCullin one of our most well know press photographer worked for papers most of his life.
So now your saying a kid with an Iphone can cover something as complex as photographing war ?
steveo_mcg
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Can a kid with an iPhone cover a war? Probably not. Can she cover a cat stuck up a tree or other banal local news which actually sells local papers, aye probably.
Although some of the most emotive pictures of the last few conflicts have been taken by locals on low end gear
People on the scene in these conflicts with a phone camera could have the picture taken, shared online and gone viral before Don McCullin has his lens cap off. The writing is on the wall for some of these pros and they will have to adapt to change or go extinct.
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the volunteering relationship should be a two way thing - I have a lot of volunteers (in my day job) but they get expenses, uniform, training (both formal and OJT) etc and genuine work experience that helps them get employment in the feild. Its not remotely similar to taking their images and laughing up my sleeve because i'm going to make a fat profit on their work.
of course its entirely your choice if you want to give your work away for free - but when you give it away to a comercial organisation who can afford to pay but are choosing not to ( and who will actually make a profit from your work but not pass it on to you) and all you get in return is dubious bragging rights (dubious because they've picked a cheap/free image not the best one) then that's a very unequal experience far closer to exploitation than it is to volunteering.
of course if you're happy being exploited then thats fine , tis a free country, but at least recognise the relationship for what it is
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DemiLion
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What amuses me the most are the amateur photographers crying about their right to give away their shots for nothing so that their 'artwork' can be admired by a wider audience.
Well I've got news for you...
Your vanity publishing is going to disappear far faster than the media's need for professional imagery.
Within five years local and regional print versions of titles will have ceased to exist apart from the very odd exception. Everything will be online.
Once that happens, your 'reader submitted pic' will languish on an out of the way URL that no one will ever see.
Have fun!
Well I've got news for you...
Your vanity publishing is going to disappear far faster than the media's need for professional imagery.
Within five years local and regional print versions of titles will have ceased to exist apart from the very odd exception. Everything will be online.
Once that happens, your 'reader submitted pic' will languish on an out of the way URL that no one will ever see.
Have fun!
D
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Does anybody else find it curious, that almost without exception, you can identify the pro's and the non-pro's purely by their argument.
Is there some sort of contract or oath you take when becoming a pro that you must take a stand against something you were likely supportive of when you were an amateur?
Just an observation. Back to the your corners...
Is there some sort of contract or oath you take when becoming a pro that you must take a stand against something you were likely supportive of when you were an amateur?
Just an observation. Back to the your corners...
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I wasnt suportive of it as an amateur either - for as long as ive owned a camera ive taken the line that id someone wants the output from my camera (which afterall is expensive kit bought with my hard earned) then they can pay , unless its a good freind or a good cause.
Ive no problem with giving work to charities as mentioned earlier ive given a fairly extensive body of work to help for heroes , to the RNLI , and to various wildlife charities and animal rehoming centres etc ... however I've never seen it as a good cause to give my photos to say archant, or pullman or any of the other big news groups , they are a company , they make money, they can give some of it to me if they want my work end of.
And talking of 'buzz' you get a far bigger buzz when you get a cover or a big splash or whatever when you are charging, because you know they've chosen your work for quality, not just because its available free.
Sharky
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That may apply to you but someone else it may not. They are just happy to see their name in print even if its in the recycle bin at the weekend, they don't care, they are happy.
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indeed - but that doesnt mean they arent being exploited.
If some wordly wise play boy wines, dines and generally convinces a sweet virginal girl to sleep with him, while telling her that he loves her and she's the one , she may be happy to chose to do so... that doesnt mean that her more streetwise freinds shouldnt advise her that he's a lounge lizard who say's that to all the girls, nor does it mean that he isn't an exploitative predator.
D
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But Pete, looking at this thread, it appears you are significantly in the minority.
Lets face it, the bar for skills in photography to get a decent pic is pretty low. You could give somebody a months training and they could produce some decent output as a second photographer at a wedding (in the publics eyes). Try and give somebody a months training in the piano and ask them to play a wedding - no chance, buns will be flying after a few minutes. Multiply that fact with the massive numbers of amateur photographers and arrive at the current situation that many complain about - pros complaining that their work opportunities are drying up because of amateurs. Sorry, but anybody in their right mind entering the pro photography world knows it aint going to be easy.
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Am I ? I havent seen any of the pro contingent saying that they were once happy to give their work away... this is probably why they are now pros
also i'm not complaining that my work opportunities are drying up - and i don't think lindsay and co were saying that either ... I basically do weddings, i only sell to the papers on a very adhoc basis - like if something newsworthy happens in front of me. My point isnt that pro's are being harmed , my point is that the newspapers are cynically taking advantage of the amateur who isnt in fact getting anything significant in exchange.
if they (the amateur) go into that with their eyes open , knowing that they won't get anything beyond a fleeting credit then fair enough, but anyone who gives their work away thinking it will help build a portfolio, or lead to paid work then they are at best deluded and at worst being misled.
D
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But if she wants to get, uhm, then who are they to stop her?
Sharky
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I don't think many people are saying otherwise, the overriding message is regardless of the fine print of the situation if someone is happy with he terms on offer and they accept them it's their choice.
e.g.
Media behemoth : Can i use your pic even though i'm a commercial enterprise for my benefit and i'll print your name underneath.
Punter : Hell yeah i'll get me name in the paper and show my friends on Facebook. /walks away happy
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even if they know she'll get her heart broken ?
like i said if an amateur goes into it eyes open, then fair enough its like two people contracting a one night stand with no expectations, but if the amateur is led to believe that it will lead to gerater things, then the platboy is telling lies to get their knickers off
D
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Pete, if you want to position yourself as the champion of the amateur, carry on. but I don't think that many amateurs feel they are being exploited - see my post above.
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And most of the stuff i see is rubbish,taken for the new generation who can only take their hard news in small doses for the youtube crowd,the same people who can't stand it if they can't check their facebook status every 5min
Maybe thats the world they deserve,
D
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Also, I really think that comparing the typical amateur photographer to a virgin is stretching it a little!
viv1969
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The truly professional photographers, the gifted, the talented....those making their living from reputation...have nothing to worry about if people wish to give away images.
Those who worry the most (and IMO bleat the loudest about it) are thre precious part-time-hack wannabe "togs",(ie. those who perhaps think their images have a greater monetary value than they actually do) many of whom lack the knowledge or skill to ever have succeeded professionally with or without competition from amateurs.
Those who worry the most (and IMO bleat the loudest about it) are thre precious part-time-hack wannabe "togs",(ie. those who perhaps think their images have a greater monetary value than they actually do) many of whom lack the knowledge or skill to ever have succeeded professionally with or without competition from amateurs.
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I don't think many do think it will lead to greater things. Some undoubtedly do, but most will think "that's quite cool, I got a picture in the paper", they'll feel a certain amount of satisfaction that others appreciated their work on some small level and then mostly forget about it.
D
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That is exactly how it will be for the majority. I can't see how anybody (except the deluded) could think anything different.
Most aren't going to care much. These aren't people who are hanging onto the possibility of getting a pic published in the paper; it's mostly people for whom it's a satisfying little bonus but not really something they're going to lose sleep over.
So I think the number of published amateur photographers who will despair at the death of print news media are going to be negligible.
I agree Viv,but sometime even the most gifted or talented need an environment in which to develop those talents,most of the greats came up thought working for an good paper or agencies
Sharky
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But that was then and this is now.I agree Viv,but sometime even the most gifted or talented need an environment in which to develop those talents,most of the greats came up thought working for an good paper or agencies
Some of the 'amateur' content for example on Flickr is mind blowingly good. People are cutting their teeth in different areas.
Yes.
If you just take pretty pictures or snap "stock" your days are numbered.
Photographers who will work towards unique perspectives (both physical and intellectual), moments of synchronicity, injecting pertinent themes and subtext into their journalistic work will be okay. This is why real investigative journalists - the journalists who work hard to reveal new and important information - haven't been threatened by the rise of blogging and citizen reporting; whereas the hacks have found themselves in trouble.
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So as i said they are kidding themselves - the paper doesnt apreciate their work , the locals at least will print pretty much any old crap so long as they don't have to pay for it.
that aside if no one thinks it will lead on to greater things why do so many when asked in threads like this why they give work away , persist in the belief that its 'good advertising' or 'building a portfolio' when in fact all they've acheived is getting their name in the paper
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It was more comparing the news group who won't pay even though they can , to the predatory lothario