More redundant photographers!

[Brazo]

But if you don't have a system in which to train young photographer,where the hell the new generation of photojournalist/news photographers going to come from

They are already here and coming through in droves, armed with an iPhone they meet the needs of the next generation photos requirements through blogs, news and social media. Everyone has a phone, everyone is everywhere and can capture the news as it happens. The world is changing and so is photojournalism.

 

[simon ess]

That reminds me of something I read about the mantra of the old pro photojournalists being:

F8 and be there.

The key is be there.

I really don't understand some pro photographers stand on this and related issues.

The landscape changes; it always changes; in this field it's changing rapidly and drastically.

If your business is adapting and doing well that is fantastic.

If it's failing then you are not adapting...

Or you're not very good.

Your business is your business, nothing to do with anyone else.

Many people in many fields have experienced, and dealt with, massive change.

Those who adapted thrived, those who didn't failed.

 

[Sharky]

Very true, this is a sign of the times. However as a professional with much higher overheads than an amateur, I work on the simple principle that my output does not go anywhere for free (unless it's for a cause I support). I see no point in allowing any third party to use my photography when there is no benefit whatsoever to me. I would think that everybody involved in the newspaper or magazine is paid, from the editors right down to the people who clean the office. I find it morally unacceptable and frankly blo*dy unfair that I should be expected to contribute to their profits when there is no reciprocation of any kind. Amateurs suffer from vanity and newspapers will capitalise on that, and I daresay some of the editors will probably snigger into their cappuccinos each time someone bites.

I was contacted last week by quite a large and exclusive chain of garden centres. I was told they were seeking a photographer to photograph their most recently built centre for their new brochure and catalogue, including exhibits and plants. It sounded nice, so I asked what the pay was. I was told that the reward would be a quarter page advertisement at the back. It doesn't cost very much to advertising in these things and the adverts certainly would not be significant in terms of bringing in business. I politely explained that but was told that they felt it was fair reward for "a couple of hours work". I suggested they contact a keen amateur or student, who might find the practice useful. I was told that was not an option because the images need to be top professional quality, the print run will fall into many thousands, and the catalogue is of course designed to sell all of their goods. Need I say more.

Glad you told them to folk off , cheeky buggers!

The crux of the issue is some photography related positions in media organisations will be either merged, be limited or become redundant altogether. The case in point of staffers, some in smaller (or maybe not to small) businesses will cease to be, it'll be freelancers, a journo + iphone or free content.

Times they be a changin'...

 

[DemiLion]

They are already here and coming through in droves, armed with an iPhone they meet the needs of the next generation photos requirements through blogs, news and social media. Everyone has a phone, everyone is everywhere and can capture the news as it happens. The world is changing and so is photojournalism.

...and there in lies the problem, Everyone thinks that press work is easy.

Except that it isn't.

About 5% of news is live action and incident, and for those shots nothing will ever beat being in the right place at the right time. Up until the near recent past on the spot photographs by passers by were hoovered up as
'collects' by staff and agency photographers. In the days of Instagram, FB and Twitter that side of the business is largely dead.

However 95% of a staff photographers work is far less to do with photography but far more about in depth legal knowledge and access.
The average bloke on the street will never understand the legal implications of a whole raft of situations that are shot, far less those that fall under the restrictions of the editors code.

It's not the fault of those giving their images away that news photography is collapsing, it's the short sightedness of the management teams who are trying to save money.
Without proper journalism and decent images, local newspapers are dead in the water. National press will follow to some extent in that they will be restricted to purely national/political news
and celeb mush. There won't be any local reporters left to dig out the really interesting stuff any more. Papers will be filled with reader generated images that are largely well below standard
and that very readership will disappear.


Btw Lindsay is spot on. There's no merit with getting a photograph published in a newspaper when it's given away for gratis. Most editors will publish any old snapshot now that the picture desks have gone.

 

[simonblue]

They are already here and coming through in droves, armed with an iPhone they meet the needs of the next generation photos requirements through blogs, news and social media. Everyone has a phone, everyone is everywhere and can capture the news as it happens. The world is changing and so is photojournalism.

Maybe that's what wrong with today's photojournalism,a bunch of amateurs doing what is after all a professional job

 

[Steve Smith]

What standard are these musician friends?

Very high standard. One of them is a session drummer who has worked with a lot of top names in the business.


Steve.

 

[Byker28i]

Btw Lindsay is spot on. There's no merit with getting a photograph published in a newspaper when it's given away for gratis. Most editors will publish any old snapshot now that the picture desks have gone.

At the bottom of every story...
Do you know someone who will give images away for free, call or email us at...

 

[big soft moose]

the only time i'll give away images to the press is in my day job when including an image with a press release makes it far more likely the locals will print it (if the PR is well written it frequently runs as an article with hardly any alteration in my experience)

In my own photography they can pay or go elsewhere (unless its a good cause - Ive given images to the RNLI , and to H4H before )

 

[brman]

the govts done that for you already with part P etc

Really? You might be surprised how little affect part P has had on the DIYer, both legally and practically. but that geting away from the point

 

[KIPAX]

The ball is rolling.. Nobody can stop it..

The only problem I can find is photogrpahers who believe they have earned a living and only they should get paid.. they live in the past.. have dreams of the world going backwards in time and think if they moan enough and complain enough then free pictures will stop and they will make pots of money again..

Well no.. the Ball is rolling..

it's going to get worse not better.. newspapers are feeling the cut.. the internet is taking over and paper sales are down.. if a business can see a cost cut they will take it... they keep some photogrpahers and freelancers for the harder jobs...

the answer? you have to realise whats happenign and work around it.. not cry about it.. when you can roll with it then you are on a winner.. the ones stuck in the past wishing things would go back in time will soon be looking for another job..

Nobody can stop the ball rolling.. you can only watch it go faster

for every one person you convince not to give free pictures.. theres another 50 in the que dying to get published for credit.. they are good photogrpahers with good equipment and good pictures.. its there passion with no interest for money...

I can see it. I am working around it and this yr has been my best in the last 7 as a self employed photogrpaher

 

[brman]

.
Btw Lindsay is spot on. There's no merit with getting a photograph published in a newspaper when it's given away for gratis. Most editors will publish any old snapshot now that the picture desks have gone.

Which I disagree with.
An amateur might enjoy the publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
Even someone starting out as a pro and wanting to build a portfolio might find it useful.

Others might disagree or not like it but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

 

[KIPAX]

Even someone starting out as a pro and wanting to build a portfolio might find it useful..

who woud thery show it to? even picture editors laugh at people giving pics for free... seriosuly what use would a press cutting be if the person looking asked how much and you replied free.. they would laugh them out of the office..

Also isnt there some irony in that.. hurting the industry by giving free pics then using that to try and get into the industry?

 

[big soft moose]

Which I disagree with.
An amateur might enjoy the publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
Even someone starting out as a pro and wanting to build a portfolio might find it useful.

Others might disagree or not like it but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

on the first one , I'd say "hey look at me i'm a mug" doesnt really carry much kudos , on the latter - not really getting a reputation for giving your work away while sdestroying the market you want to work in isnt a great way to start out as a pro

 

[simonblue]

Which I disagree with.
An amateur might enjoy the publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
Even someone starting out as a pro and wanting to build a portfolio might find it useful.

Others might disagree or not like it but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

What job do you do,like being paid for it or do you work FOC

 

[big soft moose]

What job do you do,like being paid for it or do you work FOC

hes a sparky - next sparky I hire i'm going to ask him to work "for a credit"

 

[Lindsay D]

Which I disagree with.
An amateur might enjoy the publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
Even someone starting out as a pro and wanting to build a portfolio might find it useful.

Others might disagree or not like it but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

Except then it isn't publicity Toby. It's only publicity if your photographs are accompanied by a feature on you or your work. And even then there is little chance it will actually bring you any recognition or employment unless that particular publication reaches enough of the kind of clients you're aspiring to. I've had my work published in some of the leading photography journals, over several pages, and over several years, and never once has it brought me any business. Satisfaction? Yes, because there is appropriate reward.

The odd snap in a newspaper is not going to have any value in terms of a portfolio. If someone is going to get a thrill out of that, then I have to wonder exactly what is going on in their head. I might have got a thrill if I'd been 10 years old, but as an adult I cannot see that there is any viable argument in going down that route.

 

[dinners]

It's difficult and being a photography forum we obviously have some common ground with fellow photographers both pro and otherwise.

People up the road ask me If I can come round and fell a tree with my chainsaw- I'll do it as a favour and in the process deny somebody somewhere a few hours work.

Lady next door asks if I can sort the hoses out on her washing machine - I'll do it as a favour and in the process deny somebody somewhere a few hours work.

When I cut my grass I'll often do the garden next to me because they're unable to do it themselves - again a job somebody may be paid to do.

I've provided photographs free of charge to people I know for their own websites etc.

I was recently approached for photographs for publication in a bird book. That's different as I didn't know them from Adam so it was only if I was paid.

 

[brman]

who woud thery show it to? even picture editors laugh at people giving pics for free... seriosuly what use would a press cutting be if the person looking asked how much and you replied free.. they would laugh them out of the office..

Also isnt there some irony in that.. hurting the industry by giving free pics then using that to try and get into the industry?

You are probably right, but that wasn't my point.My point was that if someone wanted to do it (and I bet some do) then that is up to them. Whinging about it will not make any difference.

on the first one , I'd say "hey look at me i'm a mug" doesnt really carry much kudos , on the latter - not really getting a reputation for giving your work away while sdestroying the market you want to work in isnt a great way to start out as a pro

Not sure I agree as that is life. I did electrical work for free/cheap (for friend and family) when I started my business, just to help get a reputation for doing a good job. It didn't do my business any harm and it frankly isn't my problem if it affected other electricians.

What job do you do,like being paid for it or do you work FOC

Other stuff in the past but writing software and electrical installation work at present. Software is a very good example, there is plenty of free software out there. Some of it designed to get money in other ways, some of it just done because they like doing it. Should all "professional" software engineers start saying it shouldn't happen because they are owned a living?
I get paid because someone thinks it is worth paying me. End of......

 

[simonblue]

You are probably right, but that wasn't my point.My point was that if someone wanted to do it (and I bet some do) then that is up to them. Whinging about it will not make any difference.


Not sure I agree as that is life. I did electrical work for free/cheap (for friend and family) when I started my business, just to help get a reputation for doing a good job. It didn't do my business any harm and it frankly isn't my problem if it affected other electricians.



Other stuff in the past but writing software and electrical installation work at present. Software is a very good example, there is plenty of free software out there. Some of it designed to get money in other ways, some of it just done because they like doing it. Should all "professional" software engineers start saying it shouldn't happen because they are owned a living?
I get paid because someone thinks it is worth paying me. End of......

But your photograph are not worth paying for

 

[big soft moose]

. I might have got a thrill if I'd been 10 years old, but as an adult I cannot see that there is any viable argument in going down that route.

*valiantly resists making an off colour remark*

I tend to agree , but then you and I have both lived fairly full lives , if someone has a mundane job with not much wow factor in their day to day grind, and doesnt routinely get their work in print I can see that they might see some pleasure in having their work published

locals tend to play on that desire with their "be a reporter" type stich on getting people to send in iphone shots etc... anyone who actually thinks they are being a reporter is lkidding themselves at best, deluded at worst , but people still send shots in

 

[simonblue]

*valiantly resists making an off colour remark*

I tend to agree , but then you and I have both lived fairly full lives , if someone has a mundane job with not much wow factor in their day to day grind, and doesnt routinely get their work in print I can see that they might see some pleasure in having their work published

locals tend to play on that desire with their "be a reporter" type stich on getting people to send in iphone shots etc... anyone who actually thinks they are being a reporter is lkidding themselves at best, deluded at worst , but people still send shots in

True,but so sad

 

[big soft moose]

People up the road ask me If I can come round and fell a tree with my chainsaw- I'll do it as a favour and in the process deny somebody somewhere a few hours work.
.

when i was an arb contractor we were positively fond of "McCulloch Bob from the pub" because while okay he'd deny us the ocassional easy job (mostly jobs that we wouldnt have taken anyway as they'd be too cheap to be worth getting out of bed for) , periodically he'd royally cock it up and lead to us getting an emergency call out for a tree hanging over power lines , greenhouses, or leaning on a house. In those circumstances we could load the price and more than make up for the lost jobs

Generally "Bob from the pub" had left before we arrived, but occasionally we'd find him still on the scene wringing his hands and explaining to the outraged house holder that "it wasnt supposed to go that way"

 

[Jayst84]

Same as the, "OMG some idiot is shooting weddings for fifty quid! How am I supposed to make a living!?!1"

If someone isn't willing to pay for photography, they aren't your target market. Find someone who is, and carry on with your life.

I'd love to make 8 million a year, shooting one job a month. Sadly there isn't a market for that, because one - people don't see photography as worth that much, and two - there are a lot of people offering a similar service for less money. I'm not going to get p***ed off at them though. I'll just compete in the market that does exist.

 

[brman]

But your photograph are not worth paying for

You are going to have to explain to me what relevence that has. Other than your arguement is a bit weak if that is the best you can come up with

 

[big soft moose]

You are going to have to explain to me what relevence that has. Other than your arguement is a bit weak if that is the best you can come up with

he's saying thats what people will say if you've made a habit of giving it away free while developing a portfolio... we we arent hiring you because clearly your work isnt worth paying for / what do you mean you want £25 a shot last month you were free.

 

[simonblue]

You are going to have to explain to me what relevence that has. Other than your arguement is a bit weak if that is the best you can come up with

Your quote


(I get paid because someone thinks it is worth paying me. End of......) A lot feel the same about their work as photographer

 

[brman]

Except then it isn't publicity Toby. It's only publicity if your photographs are accompanied by a feature on you or your work. And even then there is little chance it will actually bring you any recognition or employment unless that particular publication reaches enough of the kind of clients you're aspiring to. I've had my work published in some of the leading photography journals, over several pages, and over several years, and never once has it brought me any business. Satisfaction? Yes, because there is appropriate reward.

The odd snap in a newspaper is not going to have any value in terms of a portfolio. If someone is going to get a thrill out of that, then I have to wonder exactly what is going on in their head. I might have got a thrill if I'd been 10 years old, but as an adult I cannot see that there is any viable argument in going down that route.

but haven't you sort of agreed with me there? It might not suit you business but it doesn't mean it is wrong for everyone.

 

[Jayst84]

Your quote


(I get paid because someone thinks it is worth paying me. End of......) A lot feel the same about their work as photographer

But if the person they are trying to sell it to doesn't feel the same way, then what they feel doesn't matter a great deal.

Similarly, a hobbyist engaging in their hobby doesn't matter a great deal either.

 

[Lindsay D]

It's difficult and being a photography forum we obviously have some common ground with fellow photographers both pro and otherwise.

People up the road ask me If I can come round and fell a tree with my chainsaw- I'll do it as a favour and in the process deny somebody somewhere a few hours work.

Lady next door asks if I can sort the hoses out on her washing machine - I'll do it as a favour and in the process deny somebody somewhere a few hours work.

When I cut my grass I'll often do the garden next to me because they're unable to do it themselves - again a job somebody may be paid to do.

I've provided photographs free of charge to people I know for their own websites etc.

I was recently approached for photographs for publication in a bird book. That's different so it was only if I was paid.

Quite - there's nothing wrong with any of that. I think most of us enjoy doing favours for friends and neighbours, and the examples you've quoted are the kind of things that most people would be happy to do. There is satisfaction in helping out people who deserve it - a feelgood factor. But for the benefit of some of the newer photographers reading this thread, I would remind them that the people you mention presumably are not running sizeable businesses, brusquely expecting you to work for nothing so they can avoid any outlay and boost their profits. And that is the crux of the matter in these debates, and it's routinely overlooked by the people who casually donate their pictures for free - sometimes to big and very profitable companies. The local newspaper is one thing, but a household name business is quite another and I will go so far as to say that I find it both unfathomable and reprehensible that someone will try to put forward a reason why they might decide to subsidise a bunch of unknown fatcats. Vanity? A sad excuse if ever I heard one.

I don't think there needs to be any sense of guilt about 'doing a professional out of their income', a good business person will adapt to what's happening in their market. But I will never be able to get my head around the arguments which include lines such as "I do it because I get a buzz from seeing my pictures in print" and "it could lead to more work" and "it will get my name out there". Because all of that is complete nonsense. If a snapper gets a cheap thrill from seeing his or her picture in the local rag then they need to get out more. I will also add that I have seen cases where images have been handed over to newspapers, and the newspaper has gone on to use the same images repeatedly elsewhere, or to pass the picture onward. At this point the flattery aspects can start to wear thin - but unfortunately it becomes quite hard to pin down the editor simply because the snapper has been so relaxed about their pictures in the first place (no agreement on usage, no metadata etc etc).

 

[Lindsay D]

but haven't you sort of agreed with me there? It might not suit you business but it doesn't mean it is wrong for everyone.

No, I'm saying you need to get something back which has financial merit or is useful to you. That does not include things like "a buzz"

..... because unless you're completely deranged, it's hard to get a buzz out of any situation where you are the only person without value.

 

[brman]

he's saying thats what people will say if you've made a habit of giving it away free while developing a portfolio... we we arent hiring you because clearly your work isnt worth paying for / what do you mean you want £25 a shot last month you were free.

Ah, ok..... Yes, perhaps giving away pictures to a paper isn't a great idea if you then want them to use you as a photographer isn't a great idea.
But what if you are a wedding photographer, you pictures are good but no-one has heard of you. An (attributed) pic in an article on weddings in their local rag will not do them any harm.... It is taking business from someone who might want to sell a nice pic of a wedding to the rag but you can't base your business plan around being nice to your competitors

Your quote


(I get paid because someone thinks it is worth paying me. End of......) A lot feel the same about their work as photographer

I am not sure I get you. That was my point. If a photographer didn't feel that way he needs to find another job. But there is a big difference between whether a photograph is good enough to be worth paying for and whether the customer actually thinks it is worth paying for. Again, no different to my work.

 

[big soft moose]

But I will never be able to get my head around the arguments which include lines such as "I do it because I get a buzz from seeing my pictures in print" and "it could lead to more work" and "it will get my name out there". Because all of that is complete nonsense. If a snapper gets a cheap thrill from seeing his or her picture in the local rag then they need to get out more.

thing is theres a lot of people who do probably need to get out more - end of the day people get a buzz out of all sorts of things that don't necessarily appeal to me/us (trainspotting for example).

If i'm honest I do get a little thrill out of seeng my work in print - though only if its been paid for as well. I was quite proud of getting the front cover of bird watching magazine for example.

I agree that the other two examples are utter cobblers though theres no way that a free shot in the local rag will get more work or get your name out there

 

[big soft moose]

But what if you are a wedding photographer, you pictures are good but no-one has heard of you. An (attributed) pic in an article on weddings in their local rag will not do them any harm....
.

tbh it probably won't do you much good either ... unless you are really bargain basement your clientelle arent likely to be looking in the local paper for their wedding snapper

 

[brman]

No, I'm saying you need to get something back which has tangible value or is useful to you. That does not include things like "a buzz"

..... because unless you're completely deranged, it's hard to get a buzz out of any situation where you are the only person without value.

Sorry, I really don't get that. What is wrong with doing something for a buzz? Not everyone is about money.
Sometimes that is all it ends being, a buzz. Sometimnes (for the lucky and/or talented) it becomes money.

someone will probably prove me wrong but I wonder if Zuckerburg was thinking about how to make money when is "invented" facebook?

 

[big soft moose]

I think Lindsays point is that theres not much buzz in getting ripped off... as i say i get a buzz out of seeing my work in print , but because i charge I know that they've selected me for the qualiity of my work . Someone who gives their work away can kid themselves that they've been selected because they are great, but the reality is that its because they didnt charge.

I remember Andy Rouse telling me about the guy who did the Esso tiger shot... apparently he charged something insanely low like £200 for all rights.... Andy's shot of a tiger bounding through the snow was massively higher quality , but there was no way that he could let it go for that sort of figure when you reckon that the trip to vlad to take it had cost in the region of £10k.

I'm sure the guy who got the gig though he'd done really well "thats my shot that is" but do we think they picked him over Andy on quality ? or cost ?

 

[brman]

tbh it probably won't do you much good either ... unless you are really bargain basement your clientelle arent likely to be looking in the local paper for their wedding snapper

You may be right but I can't help thinking any publicity is better than nothing. I do know that in my electrical business I have had customers tell me they chose me just becasue they had vaguely heard my company name somewhere before but couldn't remember where. Generally it is just a small job (or maybe they would do more research) but that often leads to more jobs and recommendations.

 

[brman]

I think Lindsays point is that theres not much buzz in getting ripped off... as i say i get a buzz out of seeing my work in print , but because i charge I know that they've selected me for the qualiity of my work . Someone who gives their work away can kid themselves that they've been selected because they are great, but the reality is that its because they didnt charge.

Only a problem if you think you are being ripped off
If I got something in print I wouldn't find it hard to persuade myself it was good because it meant I was better than all the other free photos out there. but them my expectations are different to a pro.

 

[big soft moose]

Only a problem if you think you are being ripped off
If I got something in print I wouldn't find it hard to persuade myself it was good because it meant I was better than all the other free photos out there. but them my expectations are different to a pro.

yeah but you'd be kidding yourself - it would just mean that yours was the first email they opened on that topic.

 

[big soft moose]

You may be right but I can't help thinking any publicity is better than nothing..

Gerald Ratner thought that too , when he declared that all his jewery was crap (and by inference that all his customers were mugs) live on national TV ... he went bust shortly after.

 

[dinners]

Quite - there's nothing wrong with any of that.

Should have perhaps added - I'm a Manager within a National Public Utility (that's my day job) so the chainsaw / washing machine / grass cutting stuff was more about what I will find myself doing for other people because of my lifestyle and what I do in my own time.