More iMac woes - Apple 'Preview' image app, Photoshop CC, Web, 8 and 16 bit files

NeilA1975

NeilA1975

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Neil
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Ok, I'm fairly new to the iMac world and have been encountering some interesting challenges in terms of calibration and colour profiles.
My latest challenge is to understand why, when viewing PP images (mainly Jpegs) via Apple's 'Preview' photo application the photos look darker, are more contrasty and therefore look different colour wise compared to the same PP image when opened in Photoshop.
Images look identical on the web and in PS but just need to be sure is that what I process is actually what everyone else sees, within reason.
What I'm trying to achieve is that images look identical in PS, Preview and on the web.
Oh and one last question, should images in PS be saved as 8 bit Jpegs or 16 bit jpegs? Im sure PS on my windows laptop saves files as 8 bit, on my iMac, it saves them as 16 bit.

Any advice really appreciated,

Thanks
Neil
 
Cant answer your question regarding the Apples preview photo app, i don't use it. Jpegs are usually 8 bit, if its saving 16bit then it is probably a tiff file. The only 16bit jpeg format I know is jpeg 2000. I could of course be wrong, I often am :)

Edit: I'm assuming your using Photo's as a DAM because its editing tools are woeful, does it matter that the images seem darker more contrasty assuming that PS is the correct level of brightness and contrast. How do they look printed?
 
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NeilA1975 said:
Ok, I'm fairly new to the iMac world and have been encountering some interesting challenges in terms of calibration and colour profiles.
My latest challenge is to understand why, when viewing PP images (mainly Jpegs) via Apple's 'Preview' photo application the photos look darker, are more contrasty and therefore look different colour wise compared to the same PP image when opened in Photoshop.
Images look identical on the web and in PS but just need to be sure is that what I process is actually what everyone else sees, within reason.
What I'm trying to achieve is that images look identical in PS, Preview and on the web.
Click to expand...

Hmm, that really shouldn't happen - one of the cool things about Macs is that stuff should look the same pretty much everywhere.

What colour space are the images in? What browser are you using for the web?
 
can't say I've noticed any difference in my PS, preview or apple photos apps ,Affinity photo,maybe a little different,i usually edit in LR then drop an edited Jpeg in Photos then upload to Facebook or Flikr from there.
not sure if this helps your question though.
 
jakeblu said:
Cant answer your question regarding the Apples preview photo app, i don't use it. Jpegs are usually 8 bit, if its saving 16bit then it is probably a tiff file. The only 16bit jpeg format I know is jpeg 2000. I could of course be wrong, I often am :)

Edit: I'm assuming your using Photo's as a DAM because its editing tools are woeful, does it matter that the images seem darker more contrasty assuming that PS is the correct level of brightness and contrast. How do they look printed?
Click to expand...

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response - really cannot figure out what is going on, but my workflow is as follows.

1. Open .NEF file in Capture NXD (prefer to preserve the Nikon details before further editing)
2. Save .NEF file as a 16 bit TIFF.

3. Open in Camera Raw for editing.
4. Open in PS CC, continue editing.

5. 'Save file as' option used for saving as JPEG. File saves as a 16 bit Jpeg file???

sRGB being used in all 3 applications.

Ive yet to print anything until I can understand exactly what is going on!
 
JonathanRyan said:
Hmm, that really shouldn't happen - one of the cool things about Macs is that stuff should look the same pretty much everywhere.

What colour space are the images in? What browser are you using for the web?
Click to expand...

sRGB is being used in all applications for editing. Browser is Safari.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Just copy up a full res jpeg - doesn't have to be Dropbox just somewhere we can d/l the file with all the attached metadata.

BTW those 2 pictures look remarkably similar in my browser.
Click to expand...


OK i'll upload shortly - on my screen theres a big difference between the shadow details on that screen shot.
 
Hmmmmmmm. That's not a real jpeg as I understand them. That's a smart object saved as a jpeg.

You'll need somebody who understands more about those than me to help you I'm afraid.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Hmmmmmmm. That's not a real jpeg as I understand them. That's a smart object saved as a jpeg.

You'll need somebody who understands more about those than me to help you I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Thats just the file name (Smart object)....just checked in Bridge, its states its a 8 bit jpeg file, but opens in ACR and PS as 16 bits......maybe I'm missing something!!

Thanks again for taking the time to assist.

Cheers
Neil
 
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Well i think I've sorted the Jpeg 16 bit issue - in ACR Jpegs were automatically opening as 16 bits as that option was ticked in the settings - I've now disabled it and files automatically in PS as 8 bits.
Still cannot figure out the difference in Preview and PS / Web views, however.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Thats just the file name (Smart object)
Click to expand...

Kind of.....when I open a normal jpeg in PS it opens in PS. When I open yours it opens in ACR and asks me to select a colour profile. But I don't know enough about smart objects to know why.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Well i think I've sorted the Jpeg 16 bit issue - in ACR Jpegs were automatically opening as 16 bits as that option was ticked in the settings - I've now disabled it and files automatically in PS as 8 bits.
Still cannot figure out the difference in Preview and PS / Web views, however.
Click to expand...

Preview probably doesn't use the colour profile, same issue with Windows 7.
 
Neil

Just opened the image in preview as well as in Firefox and the images match. Photoshop throws a wobbly as it's a smart object. Stating the profile is not recognised. Dumps the profile and then opens it. Matches other images. Preview is colour managed as is Firefox, so I guess they are not recognising the profile as Photoshop and uses default.

Any chance of you saving a normal jpg and lets have a look at that. I've never had any problems with images in preview looking odd to either Photoshop or Lightroom
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
Preview probably doesn't use the colour profile, same issue with Windows 7.
Click to expand...
Apple's Preview does use ColorSync colour profiles (you can also soft proof images by selecting to view an image using different profiles).

I'm not sure what's going on either. I get the same results as Jonathan; when I open Neils JPEG with Photoshop it doesn't open directly, as it should, but via ACR.

When I view Neil's image in both Photoshop and Preview they look identical for me.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Sure it does ;) Apple are actually pretty good at stuff like this.
Click to expand...

Well I guess they had to be good at something ;)

The description sounds identical to what I had on pc though, image in Windows photo viewer really dark and looking as if the contrast had been turned right up. So even if it's not the exact same issue, I wonder if it is colour profile related.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
The description sounds identical to what I had on pc though, image in Windows photo viewer really dark and looking as if the contrast had been turned right up. So even if it's not the exact same issue, I wonder if it is colour profile related.
Click to expand...

Yes. I'd bet money it's colour profile related. Safari and Preview will be using the same reasoning to get the same profile. I'm wondering if the "smart object" has somehow saved it without a profile and Safari/Preview assume sRGB. When you open in ACR it essentially asks you which profile to use and depending on how your system is set up will default to a different one from somebody else's Mac. But the file looks like it's tagged sRGB.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yes. I'd bet money it's colour profile related. Safari and Preview will be using the same reasoning to get the same profile. I'm wondering if the "smart object" has somehow saved it without a profile and Safari/Preview assume sRGB. When you open in ACR it essentially asks you which profile to use and depending on how your system is set up will default to a different one from somebody else's Mac. But the file looks like it's tagged sRGB.
Click to expand...

I meant calibration profile, rather than the actual colour space
 
Ok guys, heres a couple of files, both the same image just run through different programmes.

First off, this NEF file was opened in ACR then PS then saved as a Jpeg with a quality value of 10.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rr275f9jfdrgej9/DSC_7822 ACRPS.jpg?dl=0

This NEF file was opened in CNXD, converted to a 16 bit TIFF with an embedded sRGB profile, opened in ACR then PS and saved as a Jpeg with a quality value of 10.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vkjjclajg0jtzu/DSC_7822 CNXD ACR PS.jpg?dl=0

Open as a smart object is disabled in ACR and i disabled opening JPEG's too.

Not sure if this helps but the problem with Preview still exists - at lease the images look identical in PS and on flickr.
 
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Might also be worth noting that I calibrated this display this morning using an i1 Display Pro with i1 profiler - the profile has been saved and is being used via system preferences > display > color.
I note this profile is much less contrasty than the sRGB or iMac profiles that are also available. Could be the reason why i see Preview images a lot more contrasty than in PS? I'm not really sure what is right.
 
Neil

Photoshop still doesn't like the profiles on either image . What output profile are you using in PS
 
Chappers said:
Neil

Photoshop still doesn't like the profiles on either image . What output profile are you using in PS
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Are you referring to colour settings?
When you say PS doesn't like them, what do you mean?

Thanks
Neil
 
Hi Neil

The embedded ICC profile cannot be used because
the ICC profile version is not supported.
Ignoring the profile.

This is the message I get in Photoshop when I try and open the file.

I wonder what your default RGB setting is in colour settings, and is this the same setting used when you save the fil

John C
 
Chappers said:
Hi Neil

The embedded ICC profile cannot be used because
the ICC profile version is not supported.
Ignoring the profile.

This is the message I get in Photoshop when I try and open the file.

I wonder what your default RGB setting is in colour settings, and is this the same setting used when you save the fil

John C
Click to expand...

Hi John,

My settings are as follows.


Screen Shot 2016-04-20 at 10.38.32 by Neil Almond, on Flickr
 
Colour calibration can be a nightmare! Is your colour space set to Adobe RGB or sRGB in camera? Personally I'd be looking to shoot in Adobe RGB, edit in Adobe RGB and export a Jpeg as sRGB for web (or for printers that need sRGB). You get a bit more colour depth that way and PS does a good job of converting to sRGB usually without looking any different. The only tones I occasionally have problems with are blues/purples though. As a sidenote the interface colour you edit in can really affect how you edit a picture or view it once exported - if you edit in a dark background colour and you export the picture, then view in an image viewer which uses a light background colour it can give the effect that the image has exported with a strange colour profile, but that's usually just perception. It's frustrating when you don't feel your exported pictures match PS but your images generally look great
 
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Neil

looks fine to me. Still can't understand why PS wont open it without the error message? Photo's will but it may ignore profile info it doesn't understand. Lightroom flatly refuses to do anything with it as does Canons' DPP.

I wonder if you could simply save it as a standard 8 bit jpg. Don't make it a smart object or anything like that. Simply open and save. There's something odd going on that I don't understand.

may be a bit before I get a chance to get back to you. I've been waiting for a job to render and it's just finished so it's back to work :(

John C
 
Scirocco_09 said:
Colour calibration can be a nightmare! Is your colour space set to Adobe RGB or sRGB in camera? Personally I'd be looking to shoot in Adobe RGB, edit in Adobe RGB and export a Jpeg as sRGB for web (or for printers that need sRGB). You get a bit more colour depth that way and PS does a good job of converting to sRGB usually without looking any different. The only tones I occasionally have problems with are blues/purples though. As a sidenote the interface colour you edit in can really affect how you edit a picture or view it once exported - if you edit in a dark background colour and you export the picture, then view in an image viewer which uses a light background colour it can give the effect that the image has exported with a strange colour profile, but that's usually just perception. It's frustrating when you don't feel your exported pictures match PS but your images generally look great
Click to expand...

Hi, I shoot RAW so no colour space is embedded.
The problem with using Adobe RGB with this iMac is it is only incorporates approx 75% of the Adobe RGB gamut, where as its 99.7% sRGB.
Therefore makes more sense for me to work in sRGB as i'll not be able to see the full spectrum of colours of Adobe RGB.
 
Chappers said:
Neil

looks fine to me. Still can't understand why PS wont open it without the error message? Photo's will but it may ignore profile info it doesn't understand. Lightroom flatly refuses to do anything with it as does Canons' DPP.

I wonder if you could simply save it as a standard 8 bit jpg. Don't make it a smart object or anything like that. Simply open and save. There's something odd going on that I don't understand.

may be a bit before I get a chance to get back to you. I've been waiting for a job to render and it's just finished so it's back to work :(

John C
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Yes, I linked two Jpeg files yesterday, both saved as non smart objects. Not sure why your PS is giving this error - I don't get any with mine with the check boxes ticked?
 
NeilA1975 said:
Hi, I shoot RAW so no colour space is embedded.
The problem with using Adobe RGB with this iMac is it is only incorporates approx 75% of the Adobe RGB gamut, where as its 99.7% sRGB.
Therefore makes more sense for me to work in sRGB as i'll not be able to see the full spectrum of colours of Adobe RGB.
Click to expand...
I've learnt something there, I assumed the raw file embedded a colour profile but it makes sense that it doesn't. I'm surprised the iMac can't display the full spectrum of Adobe RGB as well, I use a Mac Pro at work (Windows at home) and always assumed every Mac can display Adobe RGB. It does make sense to use sRGB in that case. Hope you get to the bottom of the problem
 
Scirocco_09 said:
I've learnt something there, I assumed the raw file embedded a colour profile but it makes sense that it doesn't. I'm surprised the iMac can't display the full spectrum of Adobe RGB as well, I use a Mac Pro at work (Windows at home) and always assumed every Mac can display Adobe RGB. It does make sense to use sRGB in that case. Hope you get to the bottom of the problem
Click to expand...

The iMac display until recently was about the same colour space as sRGB. The latest P3 displays have a much large gamut, in some cases exceeding ARGB and in some areas smaller. Te Mac can display whatever he video card and monitor can show. If the monitor is limited to around sRGB then that's what it will show. If the monitor can handle ARGB then fine . Its the video card and monitor that decide the colour gamut

P3vARGB.jpg
The display shows the Apple P3 display ( in grey ) with the AdobeRGB display overlayed ( in colour)
 
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Neil

Don't know what's happening. may be useful if other people report if they can open the files in PS. I'm on CS5 not CC but that shouldn't make any difference.

Just a thought it may be that the differences you may be seeing is that for some reason the profile with the image is not being implemented for some reason, and it's being discarded and a standard ( probably sRGB) is being substituted

If it's any help, Firefox, Preview and Photos all render the image exactly the same
 
Chappers said:
Neil

Don't know what's happening. may be useful if other people report if they can open the files in PS. I'm on CS5 not CC but that shouldn't make any difference.

Just a thought it may be that the differences you may be seeing is that for some reason the profile with the image is not being implemented for some reason, and it's being discarded and a standard ( probably sRGB) is being substituted

If it's any help, Firefox, Preview and Photos all render the image exactly the same
Click to expand...

Ok thank you anyway John for your efforts!
 
Chappers said:
Neil

Don't know what's happening. may be useful if other people report if they can open the files in PS. I'm on CS5 not CC but that shouldn't make any difference.

Just a thought it may be that the differences you may be seeing is that for some reason the profile with the image is not being implemented for some reason, and it's being discarded and a standard ( probably sRGB) is being substituted

If it's any help, Firefox, Preview and Photos all render the image exactly the same
Click to expand...
@NeilA1975 They both open fine in my PS which is CC 2015

Edit :- for what its worth, to my untrained eye, they look the same in both PS and Photos.
 
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Preview has a problem with calibrated profile settings Neil which I believe you have set? I have an apple cinema display at work (2011) and i7 retina at home, I personally find it's best to use the presets in calibration, but I am working to pre press industry standards for print using Adobe 1998.
 
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