Beginner Mode Dial - Priority

NDevon

NDevon

Suspended / Banned
Messages
296
Name
Marc
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi guys, total beginner looking for some advice. I have not even pressed the shutter release yet, I have no intention of using the camera in auto mode!

I want to learn how it all works and get it wrong so I can work out how to get it right, is full Manual mode the place to start, or is that just a waste of time and should I be using Aperture or Shutter Priority instead? I realise most people use Av - read lots of threads - but if I start there have I cut out a big chunk of learning? It's not about cheating, it's about learning how to do it right.

I'm really interested in everyone's thoughts if you wouldn't mind sharing :)
 
Never understood the masochist tendency. Using your camera in manual mode is not doing it right, it is doing it hard. I use Av just about all the time as I rarely care about shutter speeds. If I was to use manual mode and wanted a well exposed image, I would have to set the same shutter speed as the camera would in Av! No advantage at all.

If you want to go down the route of an imaginary full control, you need to be writing your own RAW conversion software and your own printer driver - otherwise the important parts are still going to be automatic.
 
As above :)

Manual has its place in photography but it is not the Holy Grail.

You will learn the how and why of photography with aperture or shutter priority, and probably auto ISO.
There are enough other variables to contend with without complicating matters: ISO, exposure compensation, composition...

Become acquainted with all the controls of your camera one at a time and how they affect the finished image.
 
Last edited:
I don't intend it as masochistic, I just want to make sure I'm not missing out a chunk of learning because the camera manages something for me. People who pass their tests in an automatic car can drive just as well as someone who passed in a manual car, but give them a manual for a day and they would seriously struggle. I learnt in a manual but I love to drive a semi automatic as its more relaxing and just easier, I'm still driving and I haven't forgotten how to use a gearbox, but have the option. The person who learnt in the manual doesn't have the option (beside the fact I believe they only have a licence to drive an automatic!)

I don't think it's cheating or that I'm going to look big and clever being able to use a camera in manual mode, I just genuinely don't know if by picking an option for the camera to take over one of the rolls I'm going to someday realise I have no idea how to do something I really should know about. If that makes sense - it does in my head anyway!
 
kendo1 said:
As above :)

Manual has its place in photography but it is not the Holy Grail.

You will learn the how and why of photography with aperture or shutter priority, and probably auto ISO.
There are enough other variables to contend with without complicating matters: ISO, exposure compensation, composition...
Click to expand...


Again it's not that I'm trying to win some kind of award. I think maybe people believe I have a hidden agenda here - I don't. If I ask the camera to do something for me so I don't ever have to worry about that sounds good as it makes life easier, there is plenty to learn as it is. If I will never have to worry about that then fine, but will I later find I'm stuck because I don't know how to take over control of that setting?

It's not a rhetorical question that I'm posing to make me look big and clever - I openly admitting ain't got a clue!
 
Photography is about light and composition.
That is the most difficult thing to learn.

Concentrate on them and let the camera help you.

Learn what the controls do to affect the image one at a time.
 
Have a look online for "the exposure triangle" or "aperture, shutter speed and ISO". There are some guides here - http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/learn-photography-concepts.htm - but there are many others.

IMO to get the best from your camera you need to understand aperture, shutter speed and ISO; how they relate to each other and the effect they have on the final image.

Using full manual, like any other camera mode, has it place but it won't make you a better photographer. However, knowing why and when it is appropriate to use manual, or another mode, will certainly help you along the road.

I use Av (with manual setting of the ISO) most of the time because I take more landscapes than anything else and want to have as much control as possible over the aperture, but Av would not be the best choice in other circumstances.

As noted above just enjoy taking shots. If they don't turn out the way you wanted and you can't work out why, post them up here and someone will be able to help.

Dave
 
The only thing I have to add to Kens post above is about priority. When it comes to measuring light to get a good exposure, you really need to learn how to interpret what your meter is saying to you. Because if you don't 'get' that then manual will teach you nothing anyway. And if you do 'get it' then you'll know when one of the semi auto modes is best, when to use exp comp, when to use exp lock and when Manual is easier.

There's no such thing as 'the right way', but there's plenty of wrong ways.
 
Each if the modes has its place - manual included.

There are plenty of times when the camera will assume an exposure based on the scene, which might not be what I want - so manual it is.

Ie. You want to capture something in highlight detail but burn out the shadows. Something like a person walking through a dark doorway with a sun ray coming in - try that in Av or Tv and your exposure will be nowhere.

Or might want deliberately drop the exposure a stop or so to eek out some texture detail of something.

Each to their own and we have our ways of working - just don't write off manual 'cos it's hard'. It's actually surprising how quick you adapt to it. Shoot for 1 day solid and you'll quickly grasp it.
 
Last edited:
^^^ Spend some time in each mode and whilst there pay some attention to what settings the camera is choosing - so when shooting in aperture priority as you change the aperture see what the camera chooses to do with shutter speed and ISO etc, then spend some time shooting in shutter priority and do the same. That should help you gain an understanding of how the variables interrelate for when you do choose to/need to go full manual.
 
the888account said:
Each if the modes has its place - manual included.

There are plenty of times when the camera will assume an exposure based on the scene, which might not be what I want - so manual it is.

Ie. You want to capture something in highlight detail but burn out the shadows. Something like a person walking through a dark doorway with a sun ray coming in - try that in Av or Tv and your exposure will be nowhere.

Or might want deliberately drop the exposure a stop or so to eek out some texture detail of something.

Each to their own and we have our ways of working - just don't write off manual 'cos it's hard'. It's actually surprising how quick you adapt to it. Shoot for 1 day solid and you'll quickly grasp it.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but this is exactly the sort of advice to avoid o_O (it seems to say a lot but actually says nothing)

Your meter won't give you 'what you want' no matter whether you're in PAS or M. M will no more guarantee the shot than the others, its not about 'manual being hard', it's about learning the important parts first - and shooting Manually if all you're doing is chasing the meter is a fools errand. So what will help

Understanding what your meter is saying and what you need to manipulate to get the shot.

But as Richard said in the first post - learn to see light and about composition, it's a far more useful skill.
 
In manual, you set both shutter speed and aperture. Now, what do you set them to? I'll assume that we regard the ISO as fixed for the moment. If you decide on the aperture you want, you then need to pick the shutter speed. And if you use the camera's meter to deliver that value to you, which you then set, you might be using manual, but you're only doing what the camera would do for you in aperture priority mode. The same applies if you select the shutter speed and let the camera tell you the aperture - you'd get the same result if you'd just selected shutter priority. Except for one thing - you're more likely to note and remember both settings, and that could come in handy if you ever need to assess the light. Which assumes that you're going to use a camera without a meter at some point.

If your use of manual is so that you can over ride the camera's settings because you know it needs an extra stop/half stop or whatever, then the chances are you can achieve the same result more easily using exposure compensation.

Manual is unbeatable when you want to fix the exposure exactly across a series of images, as in a panorama.

My main cameras are film, and have no meters, so naturally I'm using manual exposure. On the occasions I pick up a digital camera, I use aperture priority and the exposure compensation dial - I've yet to use manual.

And if you study Michael Langford's book given above, you'll know all you need to know and more besides. Heartily recommended by me as well.
 
^ For 'Richard' read 'Ken' :cool:
 
kendo1 said:
Photography is about light and composition.
That is the most difficult thing to learn.

Concentrate on them and let the camera help you.

Learn what the controls do to affect the image one at a time.
Click to expand...


That's what I'm trying to do, seems like the best advice. I think getting it wrong helps - if that doesn't sound stupid! When it goes wrong (a lot) then I can work out why.
 
Tringa said:
Have a look online for "the exposure triangle" or "aperture, shutter speed and ISO". There are some guides here - http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/learn-photography-concepts.htm - but there are many others.

IMO to get the best from your camera you need to understand aperture, shutter speed and ISO; how they relate to each other and the effect they have on the final image.

Using full manual, like any other camera mode, has it place but it won't make you a better photographer. However, knowing why and when it is appropriate to use manual, or another mode, will certainly help you along the road.

I use Av (with manual setting of the ISO) most of the time because I take more landscapes than anything else and want to have as much control as possible over the aperture, but Av would not be the best choice in other circumstances.

As noted above just enjoy taking shots. If they don't turn out the way you wanted and you can't work out why, post them up here and someone will be able to help.

Dave
Click to expand...


That's kind of what I was getting at, or at least trying to, I probably didn't explain it very well. If I don't know what full manual does or doesn't do then I didn't know if that was fine, or a hinderence. If there is no point learning something I won't, I believe in making life easy for myself, but if I need to learn something to know how and why something else works.... That's kind of my point I guess
 
Phil V said:
The only thing I have to add to Kens post above is about priority. When it comes to measuring light to get a good exposure, you really need to learn how to interpret what your meter is saying to you. Because if you don't 'get' that then manual will teach you nothing anyway. And if you do 'get it' then you'll know when one of the semi auto modes is best, when to use exp comp, when to use exp lock and when Manual is easier.

There's no such thing as 'the right way', but there's plenty of wrong ways.
Click to expand...

So I guess I need a light meter? I know you can download apps for he phones, are they rubbish or useable? What sort of meter would I need and how much do they cost?
 
Getting things wrong does help. If you know what to do to put it right.

Getting it wrong continually without knowing why will cause you no end of stress.


I'll say it again.

A working knowledge of photography, and all the little things that make up photography is the way to go.

The camera is the smallest part of any photograph.
 
GreenNinja67 said:
To use your car analogy take the theory test first.
Click to expand...


I've read dozens of posts on here from people who have got a camera and haven't read the manual, but can't get the camera to work or take a half decent pic. I've been reading and watching for a while now, u til this morning I didn't have a camera other than on my phone, so I hope I'm getting my priorities right rather than just buying a camera and complaining my pictures are not winning competitions.

I enjoy reading about it all, although contradictory stuff sometimes makes things confusing.
 
ashtennisguru said:
^^^ Spend some time in each mode and whilst there pay some attention to what settings the camera is choosing - so when shooting in aperture priority as you change the aperture see what the camera chooses to do with shutter speed and ISO etc, then spend some time shooting in shutter priority and do the same. That should help you gain an understanding of how the variables interrelate for when you do choose to/need to go full manual.
Click to expand...


I think that's kind of what I was saying, it's about understanding what it all does. I'm just going to spend time in each of the modes and look at how the camera handles the settings.
 
GreenNinja67 said:
Getting things wrong does help. If you know what to do to put it right.

Getting it wrong continually without knowing why will cause you no end of stress.


I'll say it again.

A working knowledge of photography, and all the little things that make up photography is the way to go.

The camera is the smallest part of any photograph.
Click to expand...


Don't get me wrong I totally agree! If I didn't want to learn I wouldn't be asking, I'd be complaining the camera wasn't taking amazing pics. When the pics are rubbish it's my fault - I know that. It's not a great camera but it's a lot better than a smartphone, and it's a good place to learn I hope, as I think it does everything I need it to so that I can understand how it all comes together.
 
NDevon said:
So I guess I need a light meter? I know you can download apps for he phones, are they rubbish or useable? What sort of meter would I need and how much do they cost?
Click to expand...
There's one in your camera. That thing at the bottom of the viewfinder with the centre and the + and the -.

In the Semi auto modes, you choose one or 2 of the variables (of the triangle) and the camera changes the rest to give you the 'correct'* exposure. If you use Manual you choose all 3. But if you're doing that without understanding what the meter is reading, no matter what mode you use, you'll end up with the same shot**.

So if the camera mis-reads the scene, or misunderstands your intent - no matter what mode you use, the result is the wrong shot.

* correct would be having the needle in the centre or whatever the modern equivalent is.

** I've actually had arguments with people who believed that 2 shots with the exact same aperture / shutter speed and ISO arrived at in different modes would be different shots o_O

You need to understand that your meter expects the scene in the viewfinder to be 'average', so if you photograph a mid grey wall, your shot will be mid grey, a white wall will be mid grey and a black wall will be mid grey.

SO you need to understand when you're shooting something that brighter or darker than average (has nothing to do with the amount of light falling on it) and make the camera compensate.

As I said earlier - whether the easiest way to do this is with Manual settings, exposure compensation or exposure lock will depend very much on the circumstances and personal preference. But many people will suggest that M is the only way it can be done.
 
Phil V said:
There's one in your camera. That thing at the bottom of the viewfinder with the centre and the + and the -....
Click to expand...

Sorry I thought you meant an external one, I hoped the camera one would be more than enough for me for quite some time - I need to get used to a lot of things before I want another gadget with more information I don't know how to deal with :D



[QUOTE="Phil V, post: 7547531, member: 24798"...You need to understand that your meter expects the scene in the viewfinder to be 'average', so if you photograph a mid grey wall, your shot will be mid grey, a white wall will be mid grey and a black wall will be mid grey.

SO you need to understand when you're shooting something that brighter or darker than average (has nothing to do with the amount of light falling on it) and make the camera compensate.[/QUOTE]


Ahh now that makes a lot of sense, I have a feeling that's one of the best bits of advice I've had in a while, it makes things make more sense looking at it like that. It's probably pretty obvious to people who do it all the time, but for me I looked through a viewfinder and suddenly it was like being in a flight simulator surrounded by numbers I didn't know what to do with.

So is this why people sometimes mention a piece of (18%) grey card in their camera case? I felt like an idiot asking what the heck you would do with that bit of card - but I guess now I've brought it up - what the heck do you do with a piece of grey card? And is it 18% or am I making that up? And of so, I guess I need to ask what does 18% mean? Sorry, feel like a total idiot. I've read loads, but it feels like I needn't have bothered....


Oh, and yea I can't fly a plane either!
 
I stumbled on that yesterday @troutfisher - I wasn't sure if it was worth getting stuck in to so I'm glad you mentioned it. Anyone gone through it?
 
NDevon said:
...

So is this why people sometimes mention a piece of (18%) grey card in their camera case? I felt like an idiot asking what the heck you would do with that bit of card - but I guess now I've brought it up - what the heck do you do with a piece of grey card? And is it 18% or am I making that up? And of so, I guess I need to ask what does 18% mean? Sorry, feel like a total idiot. I've read loads, but it feels like I needn't have bothered....


Oh, and yea I can't fly a plane either!
Click to expand...
Well you should have worked it out, but pointing your meter at the grey card and using that reading will get you the right exposure in the same light.

Yes it's 18% grey

And it might also help with white balance...



That's done it - can's open - worms everywhere.:exit:
 
NDevon said:
I stumbled on that yesterday @troutfisher - I wasn't sure if it was worth getting stuck in to so I'm glad you mentioned it. Anyone gone through it?
Click to expand...

I have not gone through it, but as it was free and being a Yorkshireman with Scottish ancestry I thought I would get it anyway
 
As mentioned above, start by understanding the exposure triangle of shutter speed, lens aperture, and sensor ISO (sensitivity to light). This is a good tutorial, by our own Pookeyhead https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...xposure-theory-but-were-afraid-to-ask-101.39/

Not sure what camera you have (the one you were given?) but if it's not a DSLR (or mirrorless/CSC type) then it will have a very small sensor. One aspect of that is it's very hard not to get everything in sharp focus from near to far, and this robs you of creative depth-of-field adjustment that is a key aspect of aperture control.

As for the exposure mode, this debate always turns to argument. Basically, it doesn't matter - it's the settings actually used that make the difference, not how they were arrived at. A lot of it is personal preference - use whichever mode best suits you and the situation. There is one thing that auto modes do that is difficult in manual though, and that is to change settings very quickly - faster than you can think, and certainly faster than you can fiddle with controls. Say you're shooting in bright sun and then see something happening out of the corner of your eye, but it's in shade. Auto will nail it, or get pretty close, when there's just no time to change settings.

Re your other thread on studio flash work, you might find a light meter useful for that and it'll help with learning.
 
NDevon said:
Sorry I thought you meant an external one, I hoped the camera one would be more than enough for me for quite some time - I need to get used to a lot of things before I want another gadget with more information I don't know how to deal with :D



[QUOTE="Phil V, post: 7547531, member: 24798"...You need to understand that your meter expects the scene in the viewfinder to be 'average', so if you photograph a mid grey wall, your shot will be mid grey, a white wall will be mid grey and a black wall will be mid grey.

SO you need to understand when you're shooting something that brighter or darker than average (has nothing to do with the amount of light falling on it) and make the camera compensate.
Click to expand...


Ahh now that makes a lot of sense, I have a feeling that's one of the best bits of advice I've had in a while, it makes things make more sense looking at it like that. It's probably pretty obvious to people who do it all the time, but for me I looked through a viewfinder and suddenly it was like being in a flight simulator surrounded by numbers I didn't know what to do with.

So is this why people sometimes mention a piece of (18%) grey card in their camera case? I felt like an idiot asking what the heck you would do with that bit of card - but I guess now I've brought it up - what the heck do you do with a piece of grey card? And is it 18% or am I making that up? And of so, I guess I need to ask what does 18% mean? Sorry, feel like a total idiot. I've read loads, but it feels like I needn't have bothered....


Oh, and yea I can't fly a plane either![/QUOTE]


A good stand in for 18% grey is grass. Close enough as a starting point anyway.
 
Phil V said:
Well you should have worked it out, but pointing your meter at the grey card and using that reading will get you the right exposure in the same light.

Yes it's 18% grey

And it might also help with white balance...
Click to expand...

Don't laugh but as I didn't have any grey card I tried it on my grey cat - British Blue, but they are grey really :D



HoppyUK said:
As mentioned above, start by understanding the exposure triangle of shutter speed, lens aperture, and sensor ISO (sensitivity to light). This is a good tutorial, by our own Pookeyhead https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...xposure-theory-but-were-afraid-to-ask-101.39/

Not sure what camera you have (the one you were given?) but if it's not a DSLR (or mirrorless/CSC type) then it will have a very small sensor. One aspect of that is it's very hard not to get everything in sharp focus from near to far, and this robs you of creative depth-of-field adjustment that is a key aspect of aperture control.

As for the exposure mode, this debate always turns to argument. Basically, it doesn't matter - it's the settings actually used that make the difference, not how they were arrived at. A lot of it is personal preference - use whichever mode best suits you and the situation. There is one thing that auto modes do that is difficult in manual though, and that is to change settings very quickly - faster than you can think, and certainly faster than you can fiddle with controls. Say you're shooting in bright sun and then see something happening out of the corner of your eye, but it's in shade. Auto will nail it, or get pretty close, when there's just no time to change settings.

Re your other thread on studio flash work, you might find a light meter useful for that and it'll help with learning.
Click to expand...


It's just a Canon 1300D with the standard lens but as its got most of the knobs and buttons I'm hoping I can learn plenty from it.

I going to do so,e reading now, got lots of stuff bookmarked from today so I'll add the triangle stuff to the list :)



kendo1 said:
A good stand in for 18% grey is grass. Close enough as a starting point anyway.
Click to expand...

You haven't seen my lawn!
 
NDevon said:
You haven't seen my lawn!
Click to expand...

Hopefully you'll not just be taking pics of your lawn :)

When you are out and about take a look around and compare the reading from grass and compare it to the scene/subject you are taking.
Just another way to learn about light and your camera meter.
 
Just buy the bloody book!

It's an amazing tome from film days but most of the advice and teaching still holds true in our digital age.

Give it a go.
 
GreenNinja67 said:
Just buy the bloody book!

It's an amazing tome from film days but most of the advice and teaching still holds true in our digital age.

Give it a go.
Click to expand...

First edition 1965...

I suspect a more up to date alternative is the Cambridge in Colour website which is free.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/

...and the Marc Levoy lectures mentioned above.
 
kendo1 said:
Hopefully you'll not just be taking pics of your lawn :)

When you are out and about take a look around and compare the reading from grass and compare it to the scene/subject you are taking.
Just another way to learn about light and your camera meter.
Click to expand...


I have a very green garden actually and fields beyond, I was just having a laugh. Thanks for the suggestion, so much to learn. So did you all start out reading Terry's book?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top