and the site receives a small commission
Minimum alcohol pricing
- Thread starter SFTPhotography
- Start date
- Status
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Didn't it work in Finland?
ianp5a
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 4,719
- Name
- Ian
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yes. It's the culture more than the laws that get the long term results.
There is something about a Bavarian beer garden, for example, where massive amounts of beer is sold in 2-pint measures and people start drinking at 4 or 5pm, which is quite calming. And, even if you are new to Germany, your drinking speed will slow down to a steady pace all evening. And trouble is rare.
Long term cultural change is the only answer. Short term knee jerk restrictive laws quite often make things worse.
Yes. It wouldn't work in the UK yet. But it's not down to the individuals. It's the environment they grow up in. Move the same person to Germany and they'd adapt to their surroundings and the local culture.
There is something about a Bavarian beer garden, for example, where massive amounts of beer is sold in 2-pint measures and people start drinking at 4 or 5pm, which is quite calming. And, even if you are new to Germany, your drinking speed will slow down to a steady pace all evening. And trouble is rare.
Long term cultural change is the only answer. Short term knee jerk restrictive laws quite often make things worse.
Last edited:
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Well continental late night stunning certainly hasn't. The Finish model should be adopted as it was a proven model of success in kerbing wanton drunkeness
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The few Polish people I knew and dated adopted our way of drinking. They drank like drains. Maybe that's how they drink over there.
If we let more Arabs in, that may help. They don't drink and IMHO their culture is all the better for it. Perhaps I should ask the Saudi government permission to live there. Low income tax, no drinking, no late nights. I like that
PaulF
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 1,863
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
http://lifeinfinland.wordpress.com/2011/01/06/drinking-culture/
It's from 2011 but doesn't look like a model to be followed at all. Only had a very quick look, my wife had a Finn as a colleague a while ago and she echoed the info in the link.
Happy if you could post a link that shows different.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Crumbs, the OP post made it look like their model was a success.
Edit: I've read other sources, they do drink heavily. What would their country be like, in relation to aclohol consimption without this regulation. Even worse
We need to try rationing, pure and simple.
Edit: I've read other sources, they do drink heavily. What would their country be like, in relation to aclohol consimption without this regulation. Even worse
We need to try rationing, pure and simple.
Last edited:
PaulF
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 1,863
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Thought the original link in the op was more to do with advertising ban in Finland as they still have a big alcohol problem despite having very high prices. They apparently support Scotland in bringing in a minimum price though but seem to inadvertently admit it doesn't work.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It might help, if it was cheaper they would be tempted to drink more?
PaulF
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 1,863
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Maybe, but if was cheaper in the bars etc would they feel the need to get more or less drunk on cheap drink at home first, or would they drink more responsibility while out in the bars drinking slower?
It's a difficult problem to solve, changing a culture, most things politicians do tend to have no effect or make things worse.
It's a difficult problem to solve, changing a culture, most things politicians do tend to have no effect or make things worse.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
If they want to get drunk at home cheaply, then finish (no pun intended) the job off in a bar, it stands to reason the time spent at home getting tanked cheaply would be spent in a bar, getting tanked cheaply if the prices were to go down in bars.
Clearly the objective of these people here and there is to drink to get drunk. The drunkeness causes a lot of issues to health, anti social behaviour. It is clear to me, that alcohol needs rationed here and there
PaulF
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 1,863
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
If people are intent on getting completely drunk then that's what they are going to do, very difficult to stop them. What would be needed would be to change their desire to get so drunk in the first place. No amount of price increases etc would change that desire.
It's a cultural change within that particular social group that would be required, not a quick or easy thing to achieve.
We could use the existing laws to prosecute those that exhibit anti social behaviour, drunk and disorderly etc.
Rationing, no, that's a complete non starter for a free democratic country. Nevermind it would be unworkable.
It's a cultural change within that particular social group that would be required, not a quick or easy thing to achieve.
We could use the existing laws to prosecute those that exhibit anti social behaviour, drunk and disorderly etc.
Rationing, no, that's a complete non starter for a free democratic country. Nevermind it would be unworkable.
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
norters
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,014
- Name
- Nick
- Edit My Images
- Yes
How dare you use facts. How very dare you.
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
sorry , i forgot we were in out of focus , i'll confine myself to hyperbole and exageration in future 
Bobsyeruncle
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 17,422
- Name
- Bob
- Edit My Images
- Yes
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
All practicing Muslims I know don't drink and have no interest in the stuff.
State rationing would work, it worked in the wars it would work now. Ok some people would stock pile but slowly it would moderate consumption.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
What would they be like of drink was cheaper?
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
How do you bring about this cultural change. You don't make it cheaper or more available. Look how well 24hr licensing has worked. I kid you not I saw people in Torquay just after this stupid idea was instroduved drinking at 11am in pubs and plenty stacked up empty used beer glasses.
No, you constrain it. You make it harder to buy, more expensive to buy, less available to buy, and the punishments for drunkeness more severe.
Personally I think people should be licenced to drink, and have to produce this licence at any licenced premise. The licence would be taken away if done for any drunken crime. If caught being over a set limit (make it the same limit as DUI for motorists) not in possession of a licence. Jail time. Don't say it won't work. We do it for car drivers. Aside, I always think drink drivers shouldn't be banned from driving-but alcohol instead.
PaulF
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 1,863
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
How do you bring about cultural change?
Not sure, but, making alcohol cheaper and more accessible seems to work in some countries. More so when their culture is already set that way. So not necessarily the first step on the road to culture change but maybe the ultimate goal.
Rationing is simply unworkable even if it was a good idea, which in my opinion it is not. It would be too much of a nanny state, plus alcohol affects different people in different ways so a good limit for you may not be a good limit for me.
Like I said earlier, there are existing laws to deal with those that cause trouble, they just need to be used.
Ref, licensing and likening it to cars/drivers, let's not bring cars/driving etc into a thread about the cost of alcohol, we've managed to avoid that so far, let's keep it that way.
ianp5a
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 4,719
- Name
- Ian
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Bringing cultural change takes longer and varies from area to area. And there are many small but essential tweaks depending on different circumstances. Quite a bit different from driving the bulldozer of draconian prohibitions through the middle. Unnecessarily upsetting all sides in the process. In a quiet village with no trouble there is no need to bring in tough restrictions for example.
New rules to encourage a cultural shift should only be temporary too. An initial aim is to separate the younger drinkers in trouble areas from learning that binge drinking is the only way. Offer them an alternative, drawing them away from the black spot pubs. Who should be encouraged to appeal more to older patrons and families. Tricky. But doable with a subtle approach. So even if there is still some trouble there, the police can easily cope. And youngsters over time get to expect the police to be keeping an eye on them.
Younger drinkers must be given an attractive alternative, perhaps with good prices and music options. These places should be "designed" for the younger drinkers. Could have entrance restrictions and be located in areas easy to police. No back alleys and dark areas. Some cities already design policing trouble spots out of their streets. Takes time, so start now. Also these locations should have proper late night public transport and be located cleverly. And not just historically. Many trouble spots are just asking for trouble.
You have to offer the youngsters an alternative. Banning and blocking them just moves the trouble elsewhere. You can't ban them from "wanting" to have fun.
If a zone has trouble, the bars must work to be part of the solution. Otherwise let them be.
You have to keep observing and making changes. Finally reducing the restrictions when the results permit. This all comes from intelligent policing. Where the costs are covered by the reduction in heavy policing and no policing of nonsense laws like closing times or drinking licences.
New rules to encourage a cultural shift should only be temporary too. An initial aim is to separate the younger drinkers in trouble areas from learning that binge drinking is the only way. Offer them an alternative, drawing them away from the black spot pubs. Who should be encouraged to appeal more to older patrons and families. Tricky. But doable with a subtle approach. So even if there is still some trouble there, the police can easily cope. And youngsters over time get to expect the police to be keeping an eye on them.
Younger drinkers must be given an attractive alternative, perhaps with good prices and music options. These places should be "designed" for the younger drinkers. Could have entrance restrictions and be located in areas easy to police. No back alleys and dark areas. Some cities already design policing trouble spots out of their streets. Takes time, so start now. Also these locations should have proper late night public transport and be located cleverly. And not just historically. Many trouble spots are just asking for trouble.
You have to offer the youngsters an alternative. Banning and blocking them just moves the trouble elsewhere. You can't ban them from "wanting" to have fun.
If a zone has trouble, the bars must work to be part of the solution. Otherwise let them be.
You have to keep observing and making changes. Finally reducing the restrictions when the results permit. This all comes from intelligent policing. Where the costs are covered by the reduction in heavy policing and no policing of nonsense laws like closing times or drinking licences.
Last edited:
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
That's they key bit....the bit in bold. What works for Italians, French, Spanish simply will not work for Britain. Actually, why. Because they have bright cheerful uplifting weather, us and the Finns have dreadful dark, depressing weather. There's probably something in that.
Re licencing, its an idea, something needs done and whilst I detest the Scottish government, this seems a better idea
Bobsyeruncle
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 17,422
- Name
- Bob
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yeah. Right. It's like here - when a pub is doing a cheap promotion people get even more rat arsed. People cannot help themselves.
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 49,339
- Name
- Nod (UK)
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Status