Minimum alcohol pricing

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The problems and causes of alcohol misuse are multiple and complex, and there isn't one solution which will fix all. And the problem is getting worse, and I can't see it improving.

Human beings (and some animals) need to get some sort of "high". For some, this may be drugs or extreme sports. For the majority, it's alcohol. It's legal, and for the most part, socially acceptable. For the majority of us, it remains a few beers or a bottle or two of wine over the weekend, and maybe a few in the week. Although many of us probably drink more than we care to admit, and more than what would be regarded as healthy. But we still function as a human being in our every day life, without alcohol taking over, or making a total t**t of ourselves in the street.

Minimum price on alcohol? I don't know if that would work. People with less disposable income, and who have "issues" with alcohol will still continue to drink, and may turn to illegal, dangerous imports. Or they may turn from a reasonable standard of alcohol to those nasty, vile super strength lagers. It happens now.
I was listening to a man on the radio who works with the homeless, and he said that the problem wasn't the price of alcohol, but the standard. He said he saw homeless people who had alcohol problems, who, when they went from drinking "standard" lagers or ciders etc, to "super strength", their health would suddenly deteriorate, and their behaviour would become dramatically worse. One of his ideas was there to be a minimum standard of alcohol, rather than pricing. In order for cider, for example, to be sold, it would have to be made from apples etc, and not from crappy bits of core and ethanol.
I think he made a good point on that one.

Alcoholism or functioning alcoholism, certainly isn't restricted to those with less disposable incomes. I know an optician who would drink to excess several times a week, to the point of falling over. And she didn't care where she did it. She knew no limit. It was just expensive wine she used to consume. Luckily, she went into treatment, and no longer drinks.

Obviously, the drunks you see on a Friday and Saturday, aren't all alcoholics, they are every day people. Just everyday people who drink to excess and behave like idiots. Some of them cause a nuisance to others, some are far worse and assault people, and damage property. Some end up in hospital, and people like me end up getting assaulted or abused by these people.

We need a fundamental change in attitude to alcohol in this country. This will take a generation or more, and needs an approach from several levels. One of which should be to fine people more frequently who are exhibiting anti-social behaviour, with zero tolerance for assault on hospital staff.

People need to get high in some way, as life is generally crap with a few good bits. What can we do?
 
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viv1969 said:
I recall seeing beer in McDonald's in Germany in 1985....was I imagining it?
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No not at all. Was available in quite a few countries.

Heck our factories had bottles of wine on the table, and for lunch time there was the concept of a table beer in the office.

Oh the good old days when I had a drinks cabinet, coffee percolator and ash tray in my office. Now there is pat testing and drink and smoking is banned. Heck so are private offices in most companies.
 
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dejongj said:
No not at all. Was available in quite a few countries.

Heck our factories had bottles of wine on the table, and for lunch time there was the concept of a table beer in the office.

Oh the good old days when I had a drinks cabinet, coffee percolator and ash tray in my office. Now there is pat testing and drink and smoking is banned. Heck so are private offices in most companies.
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Pat testing is great. It makes you feel very safe :)
 
viv1969 said:
I recall seeing beer in McDonald's in Germany in 1985....was I imagining it?
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It's true. And surprised me when I first arrived. But after many years here it seems so natural, why wouldn't they serve beer? That's why I didn't think to mention it above.
 
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ST4 said:
Perhaps when we all vote UKIP we can ban Stella Artois imports. That ought to help.
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No! I like Stella Artois. Although my current favourite is curious brew from Kent.
 
i think the rather daft british tradition of buying "rounds" has a lot to answer for as everyone has to drink at the rate of the fastest drinker in order not to loose out - i prefer the german system where each drinker drinks at their own pace and the glass is refilled only once empty by a waiter who marks each beer mat each time an empty glass is replaced and at the end of the evening each person pays for the number of marks on their beer mat
 
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I think it's the whole macho I can drink more than you culture here. I witnessed a group of people chatting. One said, I'm really embarrassed I was really drunk on Saturday I don't know what I said to who I'm so embarrassed as I don't get drunk. The others said, nah, your great when your drunk you need to come out more often and get drunk.
 
boliston said:
i think the rather daft british tradition of buying "rounds" has a lot to answer for
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From experience I think you are right. Here in Munich beer is often served in 1 litre glasses (~2 Pint) where you are only going to drink 2 - 4 litres max. So rounds with more than two people would be a mess. And when I'm back in the UK I find it hard to keep up with friends in the pub. So yes, rounds can contribute to the problem. Just say NO!
 
viv1969 said:
Plenty of cases of bottling without alcohol.
A b*****d is a b*****d regardless of other circumstances.
And beer isn't distilled so its not liquor.
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True but alcohol makes them worse. The drink til your drunk and the obsession people have with "nights out" are the problem. I see it at work people skint themselves and lose out on other things like decent holidays, meals out, cars so they can go and drink £200 away a weekend vas boast about how little they remember.

People need to be saved from themselves. This law will start us doing that
 
ST4 said:
True but alcohol makes them worse. The drink til your drunk and the obsession people have with "nights out" are the problem. I see it at work people skint themselves and lose out on other things like decent holidays, meals out, cars so they can go and drink £200 away a weekend vas boast about how little they remember.

People need to be saved from themselves. This law will start us doing that
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I agree that sometimes, some people have to be saved from themselves. But we also have to accept that people will make their own choices. I know if me and OH drank less wine, or went out less, we might be able to have an extra holiday a year. However, we don't go out and binge drink and get into fights. We like to have wine with our meals, and this is part of the enjoyment. I know the health risks associated with alcohol excess.

I possibly do agree to an extent minimum prices. But that's because I think supermarkets need to have tighter regulations, as they are amoral. It's ridiculous that they sell alcohol as such rock-bottom prices. They often do this "at cost" or even less. They are also amoral, as they target certain areas. I live in a relatively poor area, where there is an alcohol problem and our local small-ish ASDA (open 7am til 11pm) sells nasty super-strength lagers frequently on offer. They sell very little in the way of fresh or frozen vegetables or fruit, but have vast arrays of cheap, nasty sugary products. No doubt they will claim "it's what sells", but I think they have a moral duty, as a large corporation, to help their local community.
Anyway, I could go on forever about the evils of supermarkets......

But maybe, because of supermarkets, we might have to set a minimum price. But this needs to be conjunction with a minimum standard of alcohol (ie cider fermented with apples; rather than apple cores and crap mixed with pure ethanol).
 
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ST4 said:
True but alcohol makes them worse. The drink til your drunk and the obsession people have with "nights out" are the problem. I see it at work people skint themselves and lose out on other things like decent holidays, meals out, cars so they can go and drink £200 away a weekend vas boast about how little they remember.

People need to be saved from themselves. This law will start us doing that
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People don't need to be saved from themselves. What tosh.
 
ST4 said:
True but alcohol makes them worse. The drink til your drunk and the obsession people have with "nights out" are the problem. I see it at work people skint themselves and lose out on other things like decent holidays, meals out, cars so they can go and drink £200 away a weekend vas boast about how little they remember.

People need to be saved from themselves. This law will start us doing that
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But this law would have absolutely no effect whatsoever to those on 'nights out' who you seem to think are the 'problem' as there is no pub/club that sells alcohol for less than the proposed minimum and by a long way on average!
 
A lot of my colleagues 'pre-load' before going out, so they're wrecked before going out. Personally, at 40, if I pre-loaded, I couldn't be bothered, as I'd be 'settled'. :D
 
ST4 said:
True but alcohol makes them worse. The drink til your drunk and the obsession people have with "nights out" are the problem. I see it at work people skint themselves and lose out on other things like decent holidays, meals out, cars so they can go and drink £200 away a weekend vas boast about how little they remember.

People need to be saved from themselves. This law will start us doing that
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If that's what people like, who cares. I spend thousands on photography. Others do the same on racing, flying, golf, clothes... I could have a lovely trip to Vegas if my wife stopped giving my wages to next. Tax skirts and heels more!!!
 
viv1969 said:
People don't need to be saved from themselves. What tosh.
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They do when its detrimental to

a) their health and well being
b) the comfort, safety and well being of others.

Drunkards fall into both a and b. They are a menace to people going about their daily business and a burden to the police, NHS and ultimately themselves when their health packs up.

BintyMcFrazzles said:
A lot of my colleagues 'pre-load' before going out, so they're wrecked before going out. Personally, at 40, if I pre-loaded, I couldn't be bothered, as I'd be 'settled'. :D
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So their aim is to get as drunk as possible and not be in control of themselves. Rock on. I'm impressed.

PaulF said:
But this law would have absolutely no effect whatsoever to those on 'nights out' who you seem to think are the 'problem' as there is no pub/club that sells alcohol for less than the proposed minimum and by a long way on average!
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True, its a baby step and may well drive the price of alcohol up, it paves the way for further laws down to the line to increase pricing in pubs, reduce licencing hours down etc to bring about a more orderly conduct in our cities.

cambsno said:
If that's what people like, who cares. I spend thousands on photography. Others do the same on racing, flying, golf, clothes... I could have a lovely trip to Vegas if my wife stopped giving my wages to next. Tax skirts and heels more!!!
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Is that damaging your health, causing anti social behaviour or detriment to other people. People drinking beer on trains late at night, cursing and swearing do. It only happens on late night trains with drunken passangers, during the day these people will behave normally and not be a menace.
 
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daugirdas said:
In what way exactly will it punish the majority? 50p / unit or around £1 a bottle of beer or cider is in reality cheaper than any half decent product on the supermarket shelves. We are talking horrible value brands cheap booze that does nothing but gets the chavs and kids drunk on the cheap. The proposed price is in fact too low to make much [needed] impact. I hope I made my point clear enough.

P.S. I absolutely hate the culture of getting drunk, vomiting and waking up in AE every weekend. I don't know what is so attractive about it, and it is not just the British thing. It's everywhere.
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Not according to our European neighbours. They think we Brits are a boozy lot, more important our aim is not to just enjoy a drink but to get p***ed. It seems rather that certain sections of society need educating that a drunk night out on the town is neither smart nor socially acceptiable.

History gives us the US example of prohibition and would such measures (minimum pricing) merely shift the problem in favour of home brewing and while illegal there appears to be equipment and advice freely avaliable on how to produce your own moonshine. Try that online auction site
 
Home brewing and illegal stuff would happen, but the significant minority in a rationed state of drinking would simply drink less. Its like when they put average speed cameras up, some will speed through but the bulk simply comply.
 
[QUOTE="cambsno, post: 6530794, member: 12012". Tax skirts and heels more!!![/QUOTE]

that infringes my human rights
 
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Maybe staying down the local till 2 was not the best idea. Sore head and sons football practice in 25 mins.

Still, none of us were anti social!

So what do you propose will happen to the economy when thousands of pubs close, not to mention the affected companies like Brewers etc, plus the very fabric of Britishness, the pub, being wiped out?
 
cambsno said:
Maybe staying down the local till 2 was not the best idea. Sore head and sons football practice in 25 mins.

Still, none of us were anti social!

So what do you propose will happen to the economy when thousands of pubs close, not to mention the affected companies like Brewers etc, plus the very fabric of Britishness, the pub, being wiped out?
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it won't be. people will go to their pubs, and leave less late having consumed less alochol. the fact the pub is the fabric of britishness is a problem. our city centres have become drinking dens, it will not be a bad thing, people will spend their money on other things, the economy won't implode
 
ST4 said:
So their aim is to get as drunk as possible and not be in control of themselves. Rock on. I'm impressed.
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Yes, but I didn't say I was impressed.
What gave you that impression?
I think it's sad and pathetic.

A lot of the younger people I work with live at home with mummy and daddy, so have a lot of disposable income. They like to go to the trendy bars in Leeds and pay £7 for a drink. Most of them are relatively sensible, but one or two pre-load and then drink and drink to excess, and end up relying on other people to take care of them every time they go out. Minimum alcohol pricing won't affect these people, only a attitude transplant will do that.
 
BintyMcFrazzles said:
Yes, but I didn't say I was impressed.
What gave you that impression?
I think it's sad and pathetic.

A lot of the younger people I work with live at home with mummy and daddy, so have a lot of disposable income. They like to go to the trendy bars in Leeds and pay £7 for a drink. Most of them are relatively sensible, but one or two pre-load and then drink and drink to excess, and end up relying on other people to take care of them every time they go out. Minimum alcohol pricing won't affect these people, only a attitude transplant will do that.
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Perhaps so, but its a baby step in the right direction. It's progressive and may pave the way for increasing the drinking age, reducing licencing hours, charging a minimum price for drinks. £7/drink is crazy but in Finlands thats a standard price, Trendy bars may be 2x this. Maybe the pre loaders will be priced out of pre loading with this law as the mimum price could be set at £4/unit one day, the prices will then force attidudes to change and the young of tomorrow may not go on like the young of today
 
ST4 said:
Why not, often people are more responsible at 21 than at 18 and having licencing cut short at say 12pm gives people less time to binge drink. Exactly why do people need to drink at 3am on a Friday. Its night time, you should be in bed.
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Erm, I don't think you actually understand the concept of binge drinking if you think that's going to help the situation.
 
Limited drinking hours has trained people in the UK to drink faster. And actually part of the "cause" of the current problem. Moving the drinking age to 21 will not stop the type of person you are concerned about from drinking. In fact lowering the drinking age combined with certain cultural changes may be better. But that takes time. Take a look at other countries. Where I live it's 16 for wine and beer. And 18 for stronger stuff. And no limit on the hours.
Knee jerk reactions should be avoided.
 
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ST4 said:
I do, a lot of drink in a short(ish) time. By cutting late hours back, perhaps people will be less focussed on drinking to excess for their night out as it will be a short affair.
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No, it just means people will try to get the same number of drinks in an even shorter period of time.
 
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