Mindless Cruelty

[Keith W]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-15460395

I just cant believe how people can be so cruel :thumbsdown:

We take our 5 year old daughter up to the pond to see the swans and ducks, she likes to feed them and see the babies, and she is upset that someone has tried to kill them and keeps asking why

 

[Dark Knight]

That's outrageous - GOD some people need stringing up, seems to be very little respect for others, or other things nowadays

 

[Tori]

what is wrong with people? Somebody shot one of clients cats a month or so ago. It nearly died but luckily it recovered. They knew who did it, but the police did nothing.

 

[Splog]

The world is full of sad ****ers these days..... Scum

 

[bindex]

Scum just about sums it up. It's a strange world we're living in.

 

[big soft moose]

I just cant believe how people can be so cruel :thumbsdown:

I can't say i'm suprised, when i was a ranger in MK I caught three little scrotes feeding paracetemol to swans to try to give them an overdose (they'd crushed the tablets up and wedged them in little balls of bread)

When asked WTF - the lead little scrote said " its something to do innit , dont be so wet man its only birds, not like they matter innit "

I felt like beating 7 grades of grit out of all three of them and drowning the nasty little scrote leader in the canal, but that kind of thing is frowned upon by employers so i just called the law instead - one got off and two got community service

We and the local wildlife hospital caught the swans and pumped their stomachs and all recovered without problem

(addendum to this - about 6 months later I caught lead little scrote again , this time urinating on an old lady in a wheel chair - presumably old ladies dont matter either )

 

[Samphire]

Really hope they manage to find the scum that did this

 

[wack61]

They knew who did it, but the police did nothing.

There's the biggest part of this problem , a few 5 year prison sentences and it'd stop

Does anyone remember that American kid who vandalised a car in Singapore and the uproar at the sentence he got, I bet he didn't do it again

 

[neil_g]

i think we've touched on this before but "knowing" who did something and proving who did something in a court of law are often 2 completely different kettles of fish.

but yes, horrible cruelty

 

[gramps]

Had this somewhere down on the Somerset Levels IIRC about a year ago, some 20 swans shot dead - absolutely mindless!

 

[onona]

I don't want to come across as self righteous or preachy, but I do find it odd the way people get upset when animals that are popularly considered to be beautiful or cute get killed, while the majority of them turn a blind eye to the immense cruelty involved in intensive animal farming, simply because cows, pigs and sheep are not considered as attractive or endearing.

Yes, it's horrifying that these swans were subjected to this. But equally, I think it's horrifying that animals are subjected to abuse far worse on a daily basis all over the world in factory farms - I wish people would feel equally outraged by that, because then maybe something could be done about that too.

I hope they catch the *******s who did this.

 

[gramps]

I don't want to come across as self righteous or preachy, but I do find it odd the way people get upset when animals that are popularly considered to be beautiful or cute get killed, while the majority of them turn a blind eye to the immense cruelty involved in intensive animal farming, simply because cows, pigs and sheep are not considered as attractive or endearing.

Yes, it's horrifying that these swans were subjected to this. But equally, I think it's horrifying that animals are subjected to abuse far worse on a daily basis all over the world in factory farms - I wish people would feel equally outraged by that, because then maybe something could be done about that too.

I hope they catch the *******s who did this.

I'm not sure that farming, factory or otherwise, equates with the mindless shooting of any animal. Farming of animals for food at least has a justifiable reason whereas the swans incidents has no justifiable reason whatsoever.
Yes we re all in favour of the best possible conditions for animals bred for food but you can hardly compare the two.

 

[andsome]

I can add nothing more, it has all been said. I wish them all the misfortune that is possible.

 

[Lynton]

I hope they catch the culprit and a firm believer in the eye for eye and tooth for tooth in situations like that. However I'd prefer a softnose parabellum or a hollowpoint.

Surprised theres no comment from a tree hugging weird beard to say its not the kids fault etc etc....

 

[onona]

I'm not sure that farming, factory or otherwise, equates with the mindless shooting of any animal. Farming of animals for food at least has a justifiable reason whereas the swans incidents has no justifiable reason whatsoever.
Yes we re all in favour of the best possible conditions for animals bred for food but you can hardly compare the two.

I'm talking about industry standard practices like cattle tail docking, halaal/kosher slaughter, overcrowding in animal pens which leads to diseases and suffering amongst the animals, and other inhumane practices and conditions to which they're subjected, which are unnecessary for the purposes of food creation.

They're comparable because with the swans (and indeed other animals like cats and dogs), we are horrified by cruel treatment, yet this same outrage is not extended to factory farmed animals. Would you consider it acceptable to chop off a dog or cat's tail without any anaesthetic? Or if your pet was terminally ill and suffering, would you consider it acceptable for the vet to cut its throat and leave it to bleed to death, like a halaal/kosher slaughter?

I look forward to the day when people decide that all animal cruelty is equally unacceptable.

 

[cyclamens]

I hope they catch the culprit and a firm believer in the eye for eye and tooth for tooth in situations like that. However I'd prefer a softnose parabellum or a hollowpoint.

Surprised theres no comment from a tree hugging weird beard to say its not the kids fault etc etc....

Funny you should say that.............. don't think he's logged on yet:shake:

 

[gramps]

Well you specifically referred to "intensive animal farming" so my response dealt with that.
I am sure that most people would condemn any animal cruelty but some of the things you mention are debatable, there is evidence to suggest that 'kosher' slaughter is more humane than normal slaughter ... I'm not an expert so I don't know.
I remember seeing footage sometime ago of a turkey farm worker 'batting' turkeys with a broom ... clearly in the same category as the persons killing/maiming the swans.
I guess the only way to stop any hint of animal cruelty of the manner you suggest would be for everyone to become vegetarian but what do you then do about tail-docking in cats and dogs or show breeding standards that disfigure an animal or bull-fighting or .... :shrug:

 

[u8myufo]

I'm talking about industry standard practices like cattle tail docking, halaal/kosher slaughter, overcrowding in animal pens which leads to diseases and suffering amongst the animals, and other inhumane practices and conditions to which they're subjected, which are unnecessary for the purposes of food creation.

They're comparable because with the swans (and indeed other animals like cats and dogs), we are horrified by cruel treatment, yet this same outrage is not extended to factory farmed animals. Would you consider it acceptable to chop off a dog or cat's tail without any anaesthetic? Or if your pet was terminally ill and suffering, would you consider it acceptable for the vet to cut its throat and leave it to bleed to death, like a halaal/kosher slaughter?

I look forward to the day when people decide that all animal cruelty is equally unacceptable.

I think you need to step down off of your box for a minute and perhaps take a look at this http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/about/official-vets/newsitems/news-item5.htm If after you feel you need to start a one man crusade to stop this practice or halaal/kosher slaughter in other countries around the world then feel free Yes animal overcrowding does go on but is much better in this country than what it ever was. I assume that you feel so strongly about this that you are not a meat eater and you have also converted all the members of your family to act likewise :shrug: Asking me to compare what the Swans sufferred to something that a vet MIGHT do to our Cat or Dog, is hardly a valid point is it.

 

[onona]

Well you specifically referred to "intensive animal farming" so my response dealt with that.

And indeed these practices are found most commonly in intensive farming environments, as opposed to more traditional pastural ones.

there is evidence to suggest that 'kosher' slaughter is more humane than normal slaughter

There isn't; in fact, this method of slaughter has become increasingly controversial in recent years as animal cruelty laws in the western world have become stricter. The entire subject of animal slaughter is a complex one and I'd argue that there are no truly 100% humane ways in which to slaughter animals in large quantities, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make an effort to reduce their suffering as much as possible, to ensure that death is instantaneous.

I guess the only way to stop any hint of animal cruelty of the manner you suggest would be for everyone to become vegetarian

Not at all. It's perfectly possible to farm animals in a humane manner. Sure, if humans reduced their consumption of animal products, this would place less pressure on the industry to produce more, plus it would have added health benefits as a diet high in animal fat has been clearly demonstrated as unhealthier than one that is more balanced with plant matter, but reduction is a far cry from abstinence.

but what do you then do about tail-docking in cats and dogs or show breeding standards that disfigure an animal or bull-fighting or .... :shrug:

All equally contemptible and horrifying traditions, which brings me back to my main point that I find all animal cruelty unacceptable, and wish others would too.

 

[onona]

I think you need to step down off of your box

I'm on a box? I'm not speaking to anyone in a condescending manner here. If you feel you need to get defensive about this, perhaps you should examine why you feel that way, instead of suggesting that I am behaving in a manner anything other than ordinary.

for a minute and perhaps take a look at this http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/about/official-vets/newsitems/news-item5.htm

What about it? Did I explicitly state in any of my previous posts that I was talking about the UK only? Furthermore, tail docking is one of a couple of different issues that I mentioned; do you feel that the fact that it's officially banned in this country (not that it actually stops farmers from doing it but let's leave that inconvenient fact aside for the moment) somehow negates the other points that I made? If this is your attempt to refute the points I mentioned, then it's a rather feeble one, if I may be so blunt. Animal cruelty is endemic in factory farming environments.

If after you feel you need to start a one man crusade to stop this practice or halaal/kosher slaughter in other countries around the world then feel free

You're obviously unaware then of the existence of numerous animal welfare organisations in this country and all over the world who talk about the same things I am talking about here, and if you thought a link to an article about farmers getting "spoken to" if they're found to be breaking the law about tail docking in one country was somehow magically going to create a huge paradigm shift in my entire viewpoint on the subject of animal cruelty, then I'd say you've rather vastly overestimated the power of that link, or indeed underestimated how seriously I take this subject.

Yes animal overcrowding does go on but is much better in this country than what it ever was.

Wait, what? This sentence doesn't even make sense. "Much better in this country than what it ever was"? What what ever was? What does the 'it' in that sentence refer to? Also, what empirical evidence do you have to support this claim? Are you saying that overcrowding in UK farms is better than it was in the past? I'm assuming this is what you meant to say, but please correct me if I am wrong. The opposite is in fact true; animal farming has become increasingly intensive to cope with the increasing population. This is true not only of the UK but the entire developed world.

I assume that you feel so strongly about this that you are not a meat eater and you have also converted all the members of your family to act likewise :shrug:

What? Why bring such irrelevant minutae about my "family" into this discussion? Furthermore, where did I say anything about eating meat being the problem? Apart from my earlier comment about reducing our reliance on animal products, I am not talking about EATING ANIMALS, I am talking about THE TREATMENT OF ANIMALS. Two completely different subjects. This isn't about eating meat or converting people to some cause, it's about our perception of what constitutes cruelty to animals, and the inherent double standards that are commonly found amongst people with regards to what is considered acceptable, and in what circumstances. And it's an interesting subject, which is why I've brought it up.

Asking me to compare what the Swans sufferred to something that a vet MIGHT do to our Cat or Dog, is hardly a valid point is it.

You've entirely missed the point I was making, so let me spell it out for you.

What happened to these swans is horrible. Right? People in this thread and elsewhere are outraged by what happened, and rightly so, as I think we can all agree that shooting a swan in a park is a vile thing to do. But I am taking this notion further and exploring the reasons why there's a point where people show an inexplicable double standard with their sympathies towards animals; we get upset over a swan being shot, but we turn a blind eye to the suffering of animals that's going on in farms everywhere. I won't post videos or pictures of any of this stuff because it would be entirely inappropriate to do so; suffice to say you can easily find behind-the-scenes footage of abattoirs and factory farms out there if you think I am making this stuff up. The vet cutting a throat example was to highlight the double standard that many people have with regards to what is considered an acceptable method in which to kill an animal; most people would be horrified at the thought of their pet's throat being cut, even if it was in a controlled environment like a vet and for the purpose of ending their pet's suffering; yet this same method of killing is routinely used in halaal/kosher slaughterhouses. Why do we think it's acceptable to kill some animals in this way but not others?

Please note that I am not going on some big PETA style vegetarianism crusade here. As a physiologically omnivorous species, we have a place in the food chain and I have no issue with the concept of eating animals, even though I admittedly choose not to eat them myself. What I do have an issue with is how we treat those animals during their lives, and wish to spread awareness of the suffering of animals that happens every day all around us. I am not trying to convert people, I am trying to discuss something which is not discussed very often.

I wish that people would extend their passion regarding the treatment of these swans to that of all animals. I am sure many of us here on this forum have beloved pets in many forms, and I think many people are unaware of the plight of many of our fellow beings outside of that pet circle. The food industry goes to great lengths to hide what happens in farms and to keep the reality of where our food comes from from consumers.

 

[Splog]

What happened to these swans is horrible. Right? People in this thread and elsewhere are outraged by what happened, and rightly so, as I think we can all agree that shooting a swan in a park is a vile thing to do. But I am taking this notion further and exploring the reasons why there's a point where people show an inexplicable double standard with their sympathies towards animals; we get upset over a swan being shot, but we turn a blind eye to the suffering of animals that's going on in farms everywhere.
<snip>

That's a very unfair generalisation. You can't possibly know how I or others feel about the subject or as you suggest 'turn a blind eye' The problem is that a lot of people are very unaware of what happens, I'm not as I have seen it for myself and very much agree that any form of cruelty has to be stopped.

I visited an abattoir at a food factory that makes pies and I was absolutely disgusted in the way the animals were handled, it really was sickening and some of the people they employed were not fit to work in such a place.

Is there anything I can do about such things? I seriously doubt it.

 

[gramps]

which brings me back to my main point that I find all animal cruelty unacceptable, and wish others would too.

I don't know why you assume that those who abhor what happened to the swans feel any different about cruelty to any animals in general.
The problem is that by putting yourself on a soapbox in this manner you actually harm your cause, just as PETA has a good basic message but harms it by some clearly emotive but incorrect statements.

I state that there is some evidence for kosher slaughter being more humane but you blandly reply "there isn't", that is foolish because there is. You may not agree with it and you may provide evidence to counter it but to say that it doesn't exist is plainly and factually incorrect.

 

[onona]

That's a very unfair generalisation. You can't possibly know how I or others feel about the subject or as you suggest 'turn a blind eye' The problem is that a lot of people are very unaware of what happens, I'm not as I have seen it for myself and very much agree that any form of cruelty has to be stopped.

I visited an abattoir at a food factory that makes pies and I was absolutely disgusted in the way the animals were handled, it really was sickening and some of the people they employed were not fit to work in such a place.

Is there anything I can do about such things? I seriously doubt it.

Of course you can do something about it - as a consumer, you can choose to buy your food from sources whose practices are in line with your own ethics.

But considering the majority of people do not do this, it's absolutely reasonable to say that most people turn a blind eye to it. You're right that many people are unaware of what happens behind the scenes and I mentioned that myself in my last post too, but I think all people should make an effort to educate themselves about their choices.

 

[malo50]

I'm on a box? I'm not speaking to anyone in a condescending manner here. If you feel you need to get defensive about this, perhaps you should examine why you feel that way, instead of suggesting that I am behaving in a manner anything other than ordinary.

What about it? Did I explicitly state in any of my previous posts that I was talking about the UK only? Furthermore, tail docking is one of a couple of different issues that I mentioned; do you feel that the fact that it's officially banned in this country (not that it actually stops farmers from doing it but let's leave that inconvenient fact aside for the moment) somehow negates the other points that I made? If this is your attempt to refute the points I mentioned, then it's a rather feeble one, if I may be so blunt. Animal cruelty is endemic in factory farming environments.

You're obviously unaware then of the existence of numerous animal welfare organisations in this country and all over the world who talk about the same things I am talking about here, and if you thought a link to an article about farmers getting "spoken to" if they're found to be breaking the law about tail docking in one country was somehow magically going to create a huge paradigm shift in my entire viewpoint on the subject of animal cruelty, then I'd say you've rather vastly overestimated the power of that link, or indeed underestimated how seriously I take this subject.

Wait, what? This sentence doesn't even make sense. "Much better in this country than what it ever was"? What what ever was? What does the 'it' in that sentence refer to? Also, what empirical evidence do you have to support this claim? Are you saying that overcrowding in UK farms is better than it was in the past? I'm assuming this is what you meant to say, but please correct me if I am wrong. The opposite is in fact true; animal farming has become increasingly intensive to cope with the increasing population. This is true not only of the UK but the entire developed world.

What? Why bring such irrelevant minutae about my "family" into this discussion? Furthermore, where did I say anything about eating meat being the problem? Apart from my earlier comment about reducing our reliance on animal products, I am not talking about EATING ANIMALS, I am talking about THE TREATMENT OF ANIMALS. Two completely different subjects. This isn't about eating meat or converting people to some cause, it's about our perception of what constitutes cruelty to animals, and the inherent double standards that are commonly found amongst people with regards to what is considered acceptable, and in what circumstances. And it's an interesting subject, which is why I've brought it up.

You've entirely missed the point I was making, so let me spell it out for you.

What happened to these swans is horrible. Right? People in this thread and elsewhere are outraged by what happened, and rightly so, as I think we can all agree that shooting a swan in a park is a vile thing to do. But I am taking this notion further and exploring the reasons why there's a point where people show an inexplicable double standard with their sympathies towards animals; we get upset over a swan being shot, but we turn a blind eye to the suffering of animals that's going on in farms everywhere. I won't post videos or pictures of any of this stuff because it would be entirely inappropriate to do so; suffice to say you can easily find behind-the-scenes footage of abattoirs and factory farms out there if you think I am making this stuff up. The vet cutting a throat example was to highlight the double standard that many people have with regards to what is considered an acceptable method in which to kill an animal; most people would be horrified at the thought of their pet's throat being cut, even if it was in a controlled environment like a vet and for the purpose of ending their pet's suffering; yet this same method of killing is routinely used in halaal/kosher slaughterhouses. Why do we think it's acceptable to kill some animals in this way but not others?

Please note that I am not going on some big PETA style vegetarianism crusade here. As a physiologically omnivorous species, we have a place in the food chain and I have no issue with the concept of eating animals, even though I admittedly choose not to eat them myself. What I do have an issue with is how we treat those animals during their lives, and wish to spread awareness of the suffering of animals that happens every day all around us. I am not trying to convert people, I am trying to discuss something which is not discussed very often.

I wish that people would extend their passion regarding the treatment of these swans to that of all animals. I am sure many of us here on this forum have beloved pets in many forms, and I think many people are unaware of the plight of many of our fellow beings outside of that pet circle. The food industry goes to great lengths to hide what happens in farms and to keep the reality of where our food comes from from consumers.

I think that high horse you're riding could do with a break soon.

 

[Lynton]

i think we have digressed a bit???????:shrug:

 

[Splog]

Of course you can do something about it - as a consumer, you can choose to buy your food from sources whose practices are in line with your own ethics.

I already do, or at least those that I know about. I use farm shops whenever possible, local butchers and never use any of the large fast food types.

The problem in my opinion is that it's really difficult to find the truth. Remember the Jamie Oliver crusade on poultry farming? Has anything changed other than a price increase and a few people saying they will only buy certain grade of eggs, chicken etc. It hasn't stopped the cruelty, in fact it may have made it worse, I don't know, but I do know that Harry Ramadan One of the biggest producers in the country is still making a fortune and will do anything he can to cut costs... Animal welfare is the last thing on his mind.

 

[dod]

Animal cruelty is endemic in factory farming environments.

You forgot to say "in your opinion".

Now, onto the main event.

Is intensive farming as humane as it could be? Probably not.

Do I care? No, not really, not as long as it's done within the current legislation.

Why? I have the ability in my mind to seperate animals we work and live with (pets) from animals reared for food. I wouldn't advocate any unnecessary cruelty but neither would I say that it's necessary for all food to be produced "free range".

I don't expect you to understand or agree with that but I was brought up in the country, it's how it is.

 

[Splog]

i think we have digressed a bit???????:shrug:

I don't think we have... Onona has raised a valid point.

 

[onona]

I don't know why you assume that those who abhor what happened to the swans feel any different about cruelty to any animals in general.

Do you honestly believe that most people care strongly about this issue?

The problem is that by putting yourself on a soapbox in this manner you actually harm your cause,

The fact that any individual who brings up this topic of discussion is automatically accused of being on a soap box is a huge problem. Why is it that someone cannot simply be discussing this? It's been my experience over the last 15 years that meat eaters have made a MUCH bigger deal out of it than I ever, ever have. Just this last weekend, I was in Dublin with some friends and every single time we all sat down to a meal, this one friend of mine would loudly announce that he was going to order meat "to ****" me "off". I never even said anything about it myself.

just as PETA has a good basic message but harms it by some clearly emotive but incorrect statements.

PETA are ridiculous because they go around using shock tactics, shoving violent imagery in peoples' faces, distorting facts and shouting accusations at everyone. I am not doing anything of the sort.

I state that there is some evidence for kosher slaughter being more humane but you blandly reply "there isn't", that is foolish because there is. You may not agree with it and you may provide evidence to counter it but to say that it doesn't exist is plainly and factually incorrect.

Wait, wait. So you're getting on my case for not providing evidence of my claims, when you did exactly the same thing? Considering it's quite abundantly obvious that I have a deep interest in this subject, surely you realise that of course I am familiar with all sides of the kosher argument, including claims of it not being cruel? There's a difference between claims and evidence - there is no documented, peer-reviewed empirically demonstrated scientific evidence that proves that kosher or halaal slaughtering methods are more humane than any other. This is a fact. If such hard evidence existed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You'll find plenty of anecdotal claims on religious websites who, rather obviously, defend the practices, often making vague claims of "plenty of evidence" without ever referencing any of it. You'll also find numerous politically correct people who attempt to paint the condemnation of these ritualistic slaughtering methods as racially-motivated, which further clouds the issue. But the fact remains that there is no evidence to prove that these slaughter methods are more humane. Look it up if you don't believe me.

You never answered my question about the pet throat cutting - could you please just do that for me? I asked you if you think it would be acceptable for a vet to cut a dog or cat's throat and let it bleed to death. Since you're defending this method of killing, I am particularly curious to hear your answer to this one.

 

[onona]

I think that high horse you're riding could do with a break soon.

Insightful contribution there. Funny how some people condemn and point accusatory fingers when someone brings up an uncomfortable subject, instead of actually contributing anything of any depth. I can think of many smug, self righteous responses here but I won't stoop that low.

 

[onona]

I already do, or at least those that I know about. I use farm shops whenever possible, local butchers and never use any of the large fast food types.

Well then I'd say you're already doing everything you can do! And that's great.

The problem in my opinion is that it's really difficult to find the truth. Remember the Jamie Oliver crusade on poultry farming? Has anything changed other than a price increase and a few people saying they will only buy certain grade of eggs, chicken etc. It hasn't stopped the cruelty, in fact it may have made it worse, I don't know, but I do know that Harry Ramadan One of the biggest producers in the country is still making a fortune and will do anything he can to cut costs... Animal welfare is the last thing on his mind.

I never saw the Jamie Oliver thing you're talking about, I'll see if I can dig anything up on the web. Unfortunately it's a shame that free range and organic (organic farming has an interesting set of ethics to go with it - it's more than just some hippy thing about being healthy, which is unfortunately the view many people seem to have on it) options often come with higher price tags but I do think that if there was more awareness and transparency about these things, then it would be easier to make these options more affordable and attractive for consumers.

 

[onona]

You forgot to say "in your opinion".

Now, onto the main event.

Is intensive farming as humane as it could be? Probably not.

Do I care? No, not really, not as long as it's done within the current legislation.

Why? I have the ability in my mind to seperate animals we work and live with (pets) from animals reared for food. I wouldn't advocate any unnecessary cruelty but neither would I say that it's necessary for all food to be produced "free range".

I don't expect you to understand or agree with that but I was brought up in the country, it's how it is.

But this is exactly what I am discussing! Contrary to how some people appear to have perceived my comments, nowhere have I posted judgemental, condescending or condemning remarks; what I am talking about is the way people tend to separate animals into two groups (the "endearing" ones like the swans or our pets, and the ones that can be treated differently), and why they do this, because it's a fascinating subject when you think about it - and indeed, this is a subject that many people do not think about, because it's not really something that our western culture spends a lot of time dwelling on.

 

[Lynton]

I don't think we have... Onona has raised a valid point.

Well I will beg to differ.... The OP was about mindless cruelty that involved a swan getting shot in the head 14 times?

If you can explain the link between that and animal welfare in intensive farming then go ahead.... I've yet to hear about a bred for food animal being pelleted in the head.... though yes, I will agree some of the farmworkers at Bernard Matthews have been particularly dumb on more than one occasion.


Mind you intensive in the UK, is like the Ritz compared to continental Europe..... we were banning all sorts of stuff in 1992 (when I was at a real uni doing an agric / animal science degree) such as farrowing pens, intense battery cages, whilst in Portugal for one place they were still building them.....

 

[gramps]

Do you honestly believe that most people care strongly about this issue?

Yes I do and I am puzzled why you can't understand that ... maybe you just dont want to. :shrug:

The fact that any individual who brings up this topic of discussion is automatically accused of being on a soap box is a huge problem.

I'm not talking about others, I'm talking about you and this thread.

PETA are ridiculous because they go around using shock tactics, shoving violent imagery in peoples' faces, distorting facts and shouting accusations at everyone. I am not doing anything of the sort.

But you are ... just go and re-read your posts.

Wait, wait. So you're getting on my case for not providing evidence of my claims, when you did exactly the same thing?

No I'm simply saying that you dismissed my comment as being incorrect. You offered no evidence for that just dismissed it and you were wrong, as I said you may not agree with it but evidence exists. I don't need to provide evidence for its existence it's you who demands that it doesn't exist ... so prove it!

You never answered my question about the pet throat cutting - could you please just do that for me? I asked you if you think it would be acceptable for a vet to cut a dog or cat's throat and let it bleed to death. Since you're defending this method of killing, I am particularly curious to hear your answer to this one.

I have already stated that like most other people I abhor animal cruelty. As cats or dogs have no part in the food chain in the UK it is irrelevant to the question of kosher food.

Are you a vegetarian?
Do you wear any animal derived products?
Do you ever use any form of cosmetics or medicines?
Do you use cleaning chemicals in your home?

 

[Splog]

I never saw the Jamie Oliver thing you're talking about, I'll see if I can dig anything up on the web. Unfortunately it's a shame that free range and organic (organic farming has an interesting set of ethics to go with it - it's more than just some hippy thing about being healthy, which is unfortunately the view many people seem to have on it) options often come with higher price tags but I do think that if there was more awareness and transparency about these things, then it would be easier to make these options more affordable and attractive for consumers.

To give you an idea try this

This

and this

I'm not knocking their efforts btw.

 

[Lynton]

Well then I'd say you're already doing everything you can do! And that's great.



I never saw the Jamie Oliver thing you're talking about, I'll see if I can dig anything up on the web. Unfortunately it's a shame that free range and organic (organic farming has an interesting set of ethics to go with it - it's more than just some hippy thing about being healthy, which is unfortunately the view many people seem to have on it) options often come with higher price tags but I do think that if there was more awareness and transparency about these things, then it would be easier to make these options more affordable and attractive for consumers.

Ever since I worked in a chicken factory as a student back in 93 I have been very skeptical about "organic" food, as, as a temp I was told by the line manager to stick organic stickers on what were clearly not organic chickens, but the label itself would command a 1/3 extra on the retail price for a large supermarket...

Coupled with things such as "make sure the section is tidy today" as "xyz supermarket" are visiting........ made me seriously question things.

As such I will only buy meat from a proper butcher now. (And its a 50 mile round trip to my preferred butcher) Samll independent who thinks it amusing that I travel to buy the meat, more than the meat has travelled to get to him. He buys direct from local farms.......

Anyway I digress further...

 

[SteveH40]

lets hope karma really exists.

 

[u8myufo]

I'm on a box? I'm not speaking to anyone in a condescending manner here. If you feel you need to get defensive about this, perhaps you should examine why you feel that way, instead of suggesting that I am behaving in a manner anything other than ordinary.

Well your opening statement " I don't want to come across as self righteous or preachy " speaks for itself imo. Who is getting defensive :shrug: Who has suggested you are behaving in a manner other than ordinary :shrug:



What about it? Did I explicitly state in any of my previous posts that I was talking about the UK only? Furthermore, tail docking is one of a couple of different issues that I mentioned; do you feel that the fact that it's officially banned in this country (not that it actually stops farmers from doing it but let's leave that inconvenient fact aside for the moment) somehow negates the other points that I made? If this is your attempt to refute the points I mentioned, then it's a rather feeble one, if I may be so blunt. Animal cruelty is endemic in factory farming environments.

No I did not state in any of your previous posts that you were talking about the UK only? But if you read it you would see that Tail docking has been similarly banned in Denmark, Germany and Sweden, and even in those countries where it is still carried out routine tail-docking is not supported (e.g. the AVMA position in the United States) or has been banned in certain states/regions. Which all goes to help doesnt it?

You're obviously unaware then of the existence of numerous animal welfare organisations in this country and all over the world who talk about the same things I am talking about here, and if you thought a link to an article about farmers getting "spoken to" if they're found to be breaking the law about tail docking in one country was somehow magically going to create a huge paradigm shift in my entire viewpoint on the subject of animal cruelty, then I'd say you've rather vastly overestimated the power of that link, or indeed underestimated how seriously I take this subject.

At 52 years of age and having worked on farms for 16yrs after leaving School why would I not be aware of any animal welfare group? Did I say you did not take this seriously?



Wait, what? This sentence doesn't even make sense. "Much better in this country than what it ever was"? What what ever was? What does the 'it' in that sentence refer to? Also, what empirical evidence do you have to support this claim? Are you saying that overcrowding in UK farms is better than it was in the past? I'm assuming this is what you meant to say, but please correct me if I am wrong. The opposite is in fact true; animal farming has become increasingly intensive to cope with the increasing population. This is true not only of the UK but the entire developed world.

It probably does not make sense to an educated person such as yourself

What? Why bring such irrelevant minutae about my "family" into this discussion? Furthermore, where did I say anything about eating meat being the problem? Apart from my earlier comment about reducing our reliance on animal products, I am not talking about EATING ANIMALS, I am talking about THE TREATMENT OF ANIMALS. Two completely different subjects. This isn't about eating meat or converting people to some cause, it's about our perception of what constitutes cruelty to animals, and the inherent double standards that are commonly found amongst people with regards to what is considered acceptable, and in what circumstances. And it's an interesting subject, which is why I've brought it up.

Well fact of the matter is, although these these practices are wrong and cruel, so long as people eat meat it will carry on
You've entirely missed the point I was making, so let me spell it out for you.

What happened to these swans is horrible. Right? People in this thread and elsewhere are outraged by what happened, and rightly so, as I think we can all agree that shooting a swan in a park is a vile thing to do. But I am taking this notion further and exploring the reasons why there's a point where people show an inexplicable double standard with their sympathies towards animals; we get upset over a swan being shot, but we turn a blind eye to the suffering of animals that's going on in farms everywhere. I won't post videos or pictures of any of this stuff because it would be entirely inappropriate to do so; suffice to say you can easily find behind-the-scenes footage of abattoirs and factory farms out there if you think I am making this stuff up. The vet cutting a throat example was to highlight the double standard that many people have with regards to what is considered an acceptable method in which to kill an animal; most people would be horrified at the thought of their pet's throat being cut, even if it was in a controlled environment like a vet and for the purpose of ending their pet's suffering; yet this same method of killing is routinely used in halaal/kosher slaughterhouses. Why do we think it's acceptable to kill some animals in this way but not others?

You seem to assume rather too much imo. I have probably been in more abattoir`s than what you ever will, but I will stand corrected. I worked at the Bowlers factory whilst in construction and got to see every process of turning an animal into a pie, so please dont assume you have done and seen it all just by watching a video. You might want to do some research on how some vet`s operate as well if you feel this strongly about animal cruelty.You are fighting to stop the practice of an animal getting it`s throat cut which has been going on for centuries, even in some of the remotest parts of the world, typical western way of thinking. I dont understand why so lets get it stopped

Please note that I am not going on some big PETA style vegetarianism crusade here. As a physiologically omnivorous species, we have a place in the food chain and I have no issue with the concept of eating animals, even though I admittedly choose not to eat them myself. What I do have an issue with is how we treat those animals during their lives, and wish to spread awareness of the suffering of animals that happens every day all around us. I am not trying to convert people, I am trying to discuss something which is not discussed very often.

I wish that people would extend their passion regarding the treatment of these swans to that of all animals. I am sure many of us here on this forum have beloved pets in many forms, and I think many people are unaware of the plight of many of our fellow beings outside of that pet circle. The food industry goes to great lengths to hide what happens in farms and to keep the reality of where our food comes from from consumers.

I do not think I have missed any point, and I am sure a lot of folk on here are as equaly concerned. However imho if you feel this strongly about it why have you not started a thread all of your own in the OOF section, instead you jumped in on this one.

 

[Splog]

Ever since I worked in a chicken factory as a student back in 93 I have been very skeptical about "organic" food, as, as a temp I was told by the line manager to stick organic stickers on what were clearly not organic chickens, but the label itself would command a 1/3 extra on the retail price for a large supermarket...

Coupled with things such as "make sure the section is tidy today" as "xyz supermarket" are visiting........ made me seriously question things.

As such I will only buy meat from a proper butcher now. (And its a 50 mile round trip to my preferred butcher) Samll independent who thinks it amusing that I travel to buy the meat, more than the meat has travelled to get to him. He buys direct from local farms.......

Anyway I digress further...

The best sales team to benefit my company is the Marks & Spencers inspectors To be fair though, things have moved on a bit through legislation and it's not that easy today for a company to do as you suggest.

 

[u8myufo]

lets hope karma really exists.

Karma or Korma :shrug: